Still want to play professional baseball???????

There are many MUCH worse jobs out there and not many with multi million dollar payoffs at the end of the rainbow. Do I think they get paid too much money? Yes. But I don't resent them for it. It's what the game has become. It's what the baseball owners and collective bargaining have made it. It's not the players' fault. But to say that Manny or A-Rod or anyone in the game making 8 figures or so per year have "earned" their salaries by living that tough tough lifestyle in the minor leagues is silly.

Almost none of the kids playing for green stamps and leftovers in the minors will ever cash even one big league check. Mark Texiera recently said the main reason he went to college turing down 1st round money out of high school was to avoid minor league baseball. Nothing easy about it except for a chosen few.

quote:

There are many MUCH worse jobs out there

PopTime, with all due respect, I wonder how much you know about life in the minor leagues. Quite clearly my comments were not directed toward those players who are set from the time they sign their contract and receive the draft bonus. It focused, as Dad04 confirmed, on the other 90% of those in minor leauge baseball. Playing professional baseball, even in the minors, is the dream of so many. What you, at some point, find out is what you thought of as a game is really a business. The business is both physically and mentally demanding as well mentally and emotionally exhausting. Minor league players are not protected the collective bargainning agreement. Again, with all due respect, confusing the "riches" of those at the major league level with the process in the minor leagues that "might" get a player to that level isn't reality, but it might be a bit "silly."
I wonder which jobs you think are MUCH worse. Through A ball, the minor league players get paid either $1,150 or $1,350 per month. They play 29 days per month. With bus travel, which is extensive, they average a 12 hour work day. That ends up around $4.50 per hour for their work. From that, they pay room/board etc to live, they pay the locker room attendant, fines, etc. What is a job that, just from a pay perspective, is MUCH worse than that? Better stop typing, this is making me upset.

quote:

Playing professional baseball, even in the minors, is the dream of so many. What you, at some point, find out is what you thought of as a game is really a business.

An overused phrase comes to mind here. It is what it is. Certainly, if no one were willing to play at minor league salaries and inconveniences, then it would not exist as a going concern. The dream and an abundant supply of players willing to chase those dreams keeps the costs down.

It is similar to the starving rock band. They sign a contract for peanuts and they are upset when someone else profits from them. Many do not consider the expense and the risk associated with developing talent that millions would pay to see. For every star (insert entertainment profession here), there are thousands of wannabe's. I see it as the capitalist system at work. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other jobs to pursue.

quote:

PopTime, with all due respect, I wonder how much you know about life in the minor leagues.

infielddad, with all due respect, I wonder how much you felt like you HAD to throw out a condescending statement like that to start your reply? Typical lawyer I suppose. No, I don't have first person experience about life in the minors. But there have been books written, movies made, human interest stories broadcast ad nauseam Counselor, about how tough it is playing in the minors. I get it, ok? I also have two personal friends who went through every level of minor league ball up to Triple A in the 80's, so I've heard the horror stories. I'd venture to guess that all these minor league players living this tough life are all doing it by choice, right? Are you complaining on their behalf or do you hear lots of complaints from these minor leaguers? All I ever hear from the previous sources I mentioned are statements to the effect of, "Yeah, it's tough, but I wouldn't trade it for anything", or, "There's nothing else I'd rather be doing". I don't think there's anything more you can say except if the player hates what he's doing he should just give it up. The friends I spoke of told me the horror stories but when all was said and done they got out not because they didn't love it, it was because they no longer saw a future in it for them. And Counselor, do you really want me to answer the question about what jobs are worse, or would you like to withdraw it?

That is a great example of the joke about being loyal to a team or organization.

Players should be loyal to themselves first and then to the team of the uniform they have on that day.

Life in the minors is tough. Life in the majors is only slightly better but the pay makes up for the travel, being away from family and the stresses of the game itself.

Many players hang it up because they get married only to find that they cannot support a family on minor league money. They get a regular job with a little bit surer future.

This may be another reason that there are more foreign born players in the minors each year.

Kids struggling in the minors do it by choice--nobody puts a gun to their head to sign the contract--they have a dream and they are pursuing it and they do not look at it as a job--they see it as a means to their dream--playing in the "BIGS"

Why do kids go miles away from home to play college baseball? Because they are pursuing their dream

Why do kids eliminate the normal social life while playing baseball? Because they are pursuing their dream

You know what I say---God Bless them--it is a tough road but I will tell becoming a doctor is even tougher and more expensive when it comes to loan payback time

Just my nickel--two cents dont work any more

It's annoying all the side stuff, but who doesn't want to play 29 games a month? I would love to do it. Hopefully, I will- one day.

I must say, I am not shedding tears for any of these guys for their "tough" life, although I wish all of them great success. In fact, I think every one of them is extraordinarily lucky and when the day comes when they can no longer play, nearly every one of them will greatly miss it. There are lots of things much, much tougher. PopTime put it well.

quote:

Players should be loyal to themselves first and then to the team of the uniform they have on that day.

I suggest they start looking out for #1 around freshman year in high school, if not sooner with the amount of pitch count ignorance out there.

Thanks InfieldDad,
I appreciate your perspective and it is definitely the most accurate of all the different perspectives presented here in this post. Today I’m sitting in a hotel room in my son’s team’s hometown waiting to watch another minor league game. I try to visualize what these men are going through as they chase their dream ---- for the players, the brutal reality of minor league baseball is clouded by the rainbow that pop time speaks of. But the rainbow is not real! It is nothing more than a self induced ignorance that is a necessary part of their make-up at this level. We all know this “rainbow” will disappear for most of the players and they will come crashing into reality. I don’t talk about the odds of making it and they don’t talk about it. This is what they want to do but I can tell you it has NOTHING to do with money. You have to listen to what the players talk about. They talk about baseball and the human emotions involved in the game. They talk about the cheers and the boos from the fans. They talk about the loss of a teammate and the new kid on the block. They don’t talk about how much money they don’t make or how much money anyone else makes. Financial status is NOT the discussion of these players.
Infield dad needs no help in making his points but let me add that is difficult for the average “fan” to truly understand the toughness of minor league baseball. I hope that someday all parents will be able to look into their son’s eyes and listen to his conversations when he talks about the great time he’s having playing a very tough job ---- minor league baseball.
Fungo

Fungo, very nice post.

PopTime,
Nothing in my post came from the training I have as a lawyer. It came from the perspective of a parent and a friend.
It came as a parent who is watching from a very long distance and trying to emotionally support a son who is doing his very best to play with a baseball injury that is physically debilitating. He is battling the emotions of feeling, at times, he does not belong as the injury and its impact affects his ability to perform and prove himself, when performing and proving yourself is the only measuring stick of your employer. Playing injured, as one manager told him, is not considered, and should not be an "excuse."
My comments came as a friend of the player who got the call of his trade. I watched the player and his wife climb into his 1990's something pickup, with all their wordly belongings that they had packed overnight, and head off into the dark on a 6 hour busride they were beginning at 11pm. I felt deeply for him and his family.
My comments came with the anticipation that learning the "rigors" of minor league ball, on the business side would be helpful to some. I didn't view the comments as "silly" and don't see the issue as "silly" either.
I am probably a bit overly sensitive right now and am sorry if my post seemed biting. Not intended that way.
Fungo, As usual, fabulous post.
Jason told us you were coming to town.(Even the players know when Fungo is arriving. ) We were there only for the game Sunday night after moving things from Fla and racing back home to attend to business demands. I hope you have a great time in Lansing. Bring them some hits/runs/no errors and great pitching.
CD, as is the norm, I agree with almost every point and observation. I do think we have a difference though on the capitalism. MLB has an antitrust exemption that permits them to do things every other business is not permitted to do in a capitalist economy. I wonder how that impacts. Sure wouldn't change all the players who dream and chase the dream. It is definitely a "sellers" market and MLB uses that plus the exemption quite effectively as one would anticipate a billion dollar industry might.

quote:

CD, as is the norm, I agree with almost every point and observation. I do think we have a difference though on the capitalism.

No disagreement at all I am just thankful you did not call me a lawyer

You get a hall pass from me, parent to parent. I should have recognized that it must be very hard to have a son playing so far away and dealing with issues. I know he's still the kid you used to throw the tennis ball underhand to. Some people reading this know that I understand what it feels like to have a kid in a tough situation. In our case it was the ultimate life-or-death medical situation and having gone through that I should be more sensitive to parental emotions.
Having said that, a couple of things come to mind with regard to the player who was traded. Number one is that at least that phone call wasn't about him being released! He's still wanted somewhere. A lot of kids get that "see you later" phone call and that's the end of the road. I feel bad that his wife is having to experience the same lack of comfort as the player but again, isn't that a matter of personal choice? Do most minor league wives follow their husbands around on the road? Maybe the choice should have been made way earlier, something to the effect of: "Maybe we ought to wait and get married after we see if this baseball thing is going to pan out or not." Just my thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I am just thankful you did not call me a lawyer

Yeah, Man, I was way out of line with that one.

Poptime - you and infielddad have both come back with some very nice posts on this subject and it is nice when people can step back and see things from the other person's perspective. I hope all is going well for your son and your family

CD, you have a PM.

quote:

Number one is that at least that phone call wasn't about him being released! He's still wanted somewhere. A lot of kids get that "see you later" phone call and that's the end of the road.

Poptime,
I think that is exactly right.
I talked with the player and his parents on Sunday night and they expressed the same point of view...now that they were through the intial reactions.
I read an article on Milb last week that drastically reshaped my thinking on professional baseball. The commentator was summarizing an interview of a player who is a very top prospect but is lacking defensively. The player was pretty down because he is in an organization loaded with young prospects in the outfield and already on the major league team. What really opened my eyes was the comment about reminding the player that when you play minor league baseball, you play for 30 teams, not one.
It is a philosphy so foreign to everything we experience in baseball below the professional level.
The more I have thought about it, it seems to be the right mental approach for professional baseball. The trade of a minor leaguer is a reflection of the fact that there are 30 teams, anyone can trade for you, anyone can pick you in the Rule 5 draft if you are not protected, any one can sign you if you are released, and if that occurs, you are going where somebody wants you and thinks they have a need you might fill.

This is a great thread. Enjoy reading the different perspectives, including those of the dads of minor league players.

I think baseball always requires sacrifice as TR suggests. It's just that in the minors, it requires a greater amount. For those of us who have son's looking in, they'd be happy to have the opportunity to face those challenges. Is it an easy road - of course not. Is it a blessed opportunity - most of us would say yes.

I'm sure they have their days where they may question what they're doing there. However, I have a feeling that Fungo and Infieldad's sons will look back 30 years from now and regardless of where either end up, will remember these days with much fondness. The "emotion" of their days.... not the endless bus rides, trades, and lack of pay.

Being a "newbie" at this level, I am still learning, but so far, what infielddad and fungo have posted is right on.

Pro baseball (minors included) is a HUGE $$ business and unfortunately the kids are pretty much nothing more than pawns in the grand scheme of things. It's definitely a numbers game and I'd like to think, nothing personal. I've known this for a long time, but with a "pawn" of my own in the mix, it's sinking in. Not to say that it's right or wrong, it's just the way it is.

At any rate, knowing players who have been there, they keep saying they would trade anything to still be playing.

Fungo - I should have included in my post - Happy Belated Birthday to Josh! Hope y'all took the boy a big cake up there!

As well as to Cleveland Dad's son!

I've spent a lot of years around minor-league players, especially low-end minor leaguers, the guys who aren't going to and/or didn't realize the big payoff.

It is a dream. Maybe a pipe dream, but a dream nonetheless. A gamble. A longshot. Many of them knew it when they signed and most of the others figure it out soon enough.

The mind game is numbing for them. They are admired, even worshipped, yet the kid flipping burgers at Mickey D's is doing better in the wallet than they are.

That said, having played in the old men's league with a lot of guys who played in the minors, the overwhelming majority would do it again in a heartbeat.

What does that tell you?

My dad spent a long time in the minor leagues - albeit quite some time ago. If you think they make nothing now - you wouldnt believe what they made (or didnt make) - LOL - back then. Basically - nothing.

He didnt go on to a fabulous career after baseball was over for him. LOL

Same thing for my uncle - although not as long in the minors as my dad.

50 years later - they still do nothing but talk enthusiastically about their experiences in pro ball. In fact - they still wont shut up. LOL

In their case - I am sure it was worth it.

Just a different perspective I guess.

i would think most everyone here started with the varsity goal for their son's. then college, most likley the dream of the majors.for most it's a dream that keeps them working towards a goal.not even realizing it at times.
the eye opener for us was filling out a w-4 and insurance papers.it is a job,a dream job but a job none the less.when the signing scout got done with his advice we realized at that point you are playing for you.that is the first time in our kids life they play the game for themselves,not the team.a rude awakening at best.i'm sure it gets more difficult as you climb the ladder,start a family etc.
after 2 weeks son had contract voided,he needs tj surgery.invited back when he's healthy.he'll tell you it was a great 2 weeks.and a new goal is born.

a big business disguised as a boyhood dream

I love this thread.

20dad,
Sorry to hear about your son, but this is a perfect example how the dream can end suddenly. Need to take care of that arm folks!

iitg,
I do hear that players who played minor league never let go, good times through bad times, it is something that stays with you forever.

As told to son, compare it to a doctor's internship, long hours, ****** pay, you either stick with it or you don't.

My daughter knows of a few players who are strictly organizational guys, make decent money, college degrees. Will never be anything but that, and they know it, they know it can end anyday. They leave their wives with the kids, go off to play ball for 6 months, loving every minute of it.

But I do understnad why infielddad made this post. It's something to think twice about if giving up the college scholarhip, or expecting it to be like your college baseball years. It's a dose of reality and we all need to know about so we can help our son's decide which direction to take, or not to take.

We all know there is a trend for playres to opt for college first and I think, as we see bonus payouts get lower and lower, a trend will emerge for college juniors to remain a year longer. And now, as I have read, they can't "quit" without giving up the bonus (if the bonus amounts to anything), another reason to think seriously about the dream.

My son is a HUGE team player, if what 20dad says is true, I often wonder if he would survive, if he makes it to the next level.

After reading all the posts, I think most of us would still give up our current day jobs to play. The bus would stink, but i always remind my sister who traveled all over the country for 12 years that she has covered more places than I will in my lifetime. She played amateur golf the pay wasn't too good either :P

I do not know if many of you saw the interview of Kurt Warner talking about his salary which was the minimum during his superbowl bid. I think it was 300-400k then. A reporter wanted to know how it felt to make so little and being the star quarterback. He said in so many words, "do you know how much money that is?" He was thrilled just to play pro ball (he previously played arena football) I really love his attitude even when the chips aren't falling his way.

Lastly, IMO I figure all of our kids or us even, would love to grace the field in the bigs with fans chanting their name even if it was just for one day.
RUDY RUDY RUDY RUDY (Sorry saw Rudy the other day, love that flick :P )

infielddad,
I hear you

I have been reading this thread and I realize what I say will angier most of you,butI can't stop myself. My 22 yr old nephew is a Sgt. in the Marines and just returned from Iraq he would have loved to continue baseball after high school. My son is 18 and hopefully will be able to continue playing. Every time My son or I think how tough it might be all I have to do is think of my nephew. Thats tough

Josh,
I would bet I am speaking for everyone who posted on this thread when I say that none of us, nor our sons, confuses what they are doing in minor league baseball with the efforts, sacrifices, courage and fears that every young soldier in Iraq/Afghanistan experiences nearly every minute.
I am really sorry if my post came across that way or is even subject to that interpretation. I have always tried to communicate on the site that baseball is a game, nothing more. It is also a business at the professional level. Nothing more.
The war in Iraq is never to be mentioned in the same vein. Thank you to your nephew for the efforts he displays every single day. He is a real hero.

Josh07,

I try to tell every service man and service woman I run into a BIG THANK YOU for all their dedication to our country. If it wasn't for our armed forces, this country wouldn't be as great as it is. Tell your nephew THANK YOU and be careful!

Thank your nephew for his service to his country for me too!

josh,
our prayers go out to your nephew and the servicemen who defend our freedom.because of them we can sleep at night.
thank's

I know minor league baseball must be tuff, but to asy there arn't much worse jobs is rediculous. My dad delivers newspapers for a living. I'd bet whatever I had that he'd do anything he could to play professional baseball instead of doing what he does. I know baseball is a business, but it's also a game, and you can never forget that. The memories of playing catch with your dad, turning into pick up games with friends, little league, high school ball, hitting the weight room, batting practice, it's all for the chance to play as a professional. For the chance to make a living doing what you love to do, play baseball.

Excellent thread, thank you all for a very interesting and informative read.

Josh07, thank you most of all to your nephew and all of his fellow service men and women!

Bill and Fungo......great posts. Many think that the kids playing in the minor leagues are lucky to be there, but most worked very hard for 10-12 years to get the opportunity to make about $5000 per year. Many could be starting good jobs and making good money, but love playing and will give everything they have got to try and make the big leagues even though the odds are very strong that they won't make it.

The young couple got married because they love each other and putting it off would be the same as not grinding in the minor leagues because the odds are against you ever making the big leagues. The gal will be stronger for it and probaly a a better wife and parent too. She could have stayed home with mom and dad and waited for her man to fail so that he could then get a job and support her like mom and dad did. Instead she showed what she is made of and stuck with her guy while driving down the highway at 2am.

All jobs can be muti million dollar jobs, not just baseball. garbage man.....own a big garbage company......lawyer.......own a big law firm........the odds of it happening are not good. The life of a minor league player is not easy, and they are not blessed......they are grinding like crazy trying to be the best they can be which is not something that can be said about most people in most jobs.

bbscout
very true statement,potential is everywhere.

bbscout
I sent you a PM

njbb...Saw that Eric Cordier is now pitching for the Burlington Bees.

Good reason for me to go and see a couple of Midwest League games...your son and Eric are teammates.

When are you going to be in the Midwest to see some games?

I still dont understand why money is always the main topic of discussion regarding the minors, yes its rough, yes its tough, but so are a bunch of other jobs. This is an entry level position to a multi-million dollar a year job.
But also remember money isnt everything, i was happier before i had my signing bonus. You cant take this game and base it solely on getting rich, if you do it will humble you real quick. Luckily i've already learned that.If you look at most of the big leaguers, even the guys with big contracts, you will notice that they still just love to play the game. It may seem like with all the money that players get that its all they care about. But if you watch the game, the best players arent all about the money, they play hard and then when the season ends they let their agent take care of the negotiating.

Beenthere,
Teammates and roommates, Do you know Eric?
Ive already been out to Burlington but I may try to make the Dayton OH or Lansing games.

Great post AHS!

NJBB - If you get to Dayton, especially on weekend, please let me know. I'd LOVE to come up and watch Chris with ya!

quote:

Beenthere,
Teammates and roommates, Do you know Eric?
Ive already been out to Burlington but I may try to make the Dayton OH or Lansing games.

Coached him in the summer of 2002 with the Upper Deck Cougars.

Big, talented, good-looking kid.

Thanks, I'm still watching.

lafmom,
you have a pm

Got it!

This is a most interesting thread, as many of the pro ball discussions are. And there are as many opinions and perspectives as there are belly buttons out there.

From our perspective, there have been times when we almost wished our son were ready to hang up the cleats ... watching him struggle at his 'profession', watching the sadness in his eyes as he tried to figure out what he needed to correct to be successful, watching his face as he struggled with the little voice that told him to just keep walking when he left the mound that inning, walking till he got back home to Orange County.

Does he think his job is tougher than that of a family man trying to support a family of 4 on minimun wage? Would he ever compare what he does with that of a service man/woman who is protecting our country and putting themselves in harm's way so that we can enjoy our American way of life? No, not for a minute.

But IT IS HIS JOB AND HE TAKES IT VERY SERIOUSLY ! ! ! He treats it as a job, he shows up when he is supposed to, does what he is expected to do, and in some cases, sacrifices some things that people outside the sport wouldn't understand (sometimes it is even club house dues that come pretty expensive as he moves up, or long bus rides on 2 lane roads that take 3 hours up and 3 hours back, just to turn around and do again the next day), and does his job in rather rough climate conditions that are not always conducive to a successful outing.

He has a love/hate relationship with his dream job, and stays with it because he has the same dream he had when he was 8 and 12 and 16 and 20 ... to make it to a 40 man and then a 25 man roster. He doesn't get paid a whole lot but he and his wife manage to survive inspite of it. They both know that he could be making more money if he were in the non-sports work world, and his wife chose to teach full time. But to them, it isn't about the money at this point, anymore than it was for his parents and her parents when they first started out.


bbscout ...

quote:

The young couple got married because they love each other

Thanks for making the comments about the married couple. I know a lot of wives do NOT travel with their husbands, primarily for financial reasons, tho there are a few wives who don't travel because they really don't support their husbands' dreams. (I feel very sad for those players ... ) But our son and his wife married just before his second season for that very reason ... they loved each other, had gone together for 6+ years, and he wanted the emotional support from her that she dreamed of providing to him while pursuing his dreams. And tho many wouldn't understand this either, most of the married players that we know are more stable and settled and quite often more dependable than the single players.

infielddad ...
Thanks for your original post. I have a good sense of what Jason was feeling as we have witnessed firsthand the sadness that our son has experienced when a close friend is traded, impacted by the rule V draft, or (more painfully) said goodbye to a friend who wasn't ready to hang up his cleats but was handed his ticket home. And as I sit here and watch the tail end of the All Star game, I realize how many of those fine athletes lived the same way and wouldn't be where they are today had they not lived throught the challenges of the minor league life.

God bless them all ! ! !

This has been a really interesting thread. I really enjoyed the various posters expressing their own points of view and obviously acknowledging other viewpoints. One of the best in that respect I've ever read on here.

As I read through this I couldn't help but think about how hard it is for anyone to comprehend the ups and downs without going through them personally. While I don't pretend to know anything about minor league or professional baseball...I have learned a lot from those who have or are experiencing it...infielddad being one such person who has shared a lot of his son's experiences to me outside of this message board.

But I understand the other views as well...Poptime, while you came out with guns blazing, you ultimately got the discussion to cover the points that it needed too. Fungo, bbscout, CD, FBM, AHS17, others...great job!

I know from our college experience so much more that I could have never known before. Yes, lots of great things...but there are other times that break your heart as a parent. In what other profession do you have to sit quietly while you watch your son fail badly in front of thousands...or on national TV? What other job do you as a parent sit next to people who are ripping your child to shreds with their anger? Or read a bristling critique from a fan of their latest performance on their college message board? I'll never forget PGStaff's story about sitting in the MLB stadium while 45,000 fans booed his son. I can relate (on a smaller scale)!

You know your son can deal with it...but you're just crying inside and only other parents can ever truly understand those feelings.

One of my favorite "little stories" other than PGStaff's occured just 6 or 7 weeks ago. Our son followed another pitcher's bad outing with is own horrible outing...on national TV. The mother of the other pitcher looked at my wife after they were both finished for the day and asked, "Wanna go get drunk?"

But would we want it any other way? Really? Things are not appreciated so much when they come easy. I do hope my son pitches a CG win in the final game of the CWS, gets drafted and stays with one team forever, wins the Cy Young and is inducted into the HOF. We all want that, yes. But this stuff is hard and we know our sons are there because they want to be and we know that they are growing up so incredibly fast and yes, that alone makes us smile!

Justbaseball, Great Post.
Let my wife and I know wear the nearest Pub's Are
Around the Country.
How do you Prepare your Son for such abuse.
It's just Baseball.
Do they sell Ear Plug's to Parent's.
Are do you invest in your own Box and Share with other's. EH

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

In what other profession do you have to sit quietly while you watch your son fail badly in front of thousands...or on national TV? What other job do you as a parent sit next to people who are ripping your child to shreds with their anger? Or read a bristling critique from a fan of their latest performance on their college message board?

Just,

Please let me know the answer to that question when you find it.

In high school I sat in the crowds at football games and listened to them rip my son if he dropped a pass or missed a tackle.

I have read the remarks on the college message board where people who "say" they are my son's friend ripped him apart about baseball and he hasn't ever even set foot on that campus yet.

Added:

"I'll never forget PGStaff's story about sitting in the MLB stadium while 45,000 fans booed his son"

Now that would be a rough experience and one I am not sure I could handle.

"The mother of the other pitcher looked at my wife after they were both finished for the day and asked, "Wanna go get drunk?"

I am not much of a drinker, but under those circumstances I just may have to take it up. Maybe that is why some people drink BEFORE the game.

FBM - That was a great post! The parents of players who are in the minors obviously share the "true" picture of that life. It is not an easy one and is a job that these guys choose to stay with because of their dreams. It is very easy to understand why some would want to hang it up. It is a challenging life for many reasons.

I think it would be pretty awesome to play in the minor leagues. Even though it is not much you get paid to play a game.

"The life of a minor league player is not easy, and they are not blessed......they are grinding like crazy trying to be the best they can be which is not something that can be said about most people in most jobs."

bbscout, as usual, provides a great and accurate perspective.
For everyone who has posted about how great it is to play professional baseball at any level of the minor leagues, I agree with every single one of you. There are very few playing professional baseball players who would ever trade that experience of being on the baseball field, playing the game and competing as they never have before.
What you don't see is the off the field grind and the "business" of baseball. The business side isn't money. The business side is watching your friends get released, traded, injured. The business side is, for the most part, never ever having a "boss" who tells you how you are doing, where you stand, giving you a performance review, or letting you have a clue of your situation. The business side is having a "breakout" season, getting your hopes up that you have made a mark and having the organization select a player who barely hit over .100 but was paid a very large bonus for the rewards and development of Fall Instrux. For the most part, professional baseball is all about the organization. The player, your son, is a "commodity, a contract" within that organization. The more money invested in the player, the better he stands but he is still by and large a "commodity/contract." Once you get over that, everything is fine.
I have come to view it this way: to play successfully at any level of professional ball you need excellent skills and unbelieveable determination and confidence. Because we all are able to see what happens on the field, we we can share the joys of playing.
Because we rarely see and hear what happens the other 12-13 hours per day in their lives, we really can't relate at all. That is real life and completely understandable.
The reason I started this thread wasn't to discuss what we see on the field, it was to provide some information about the off field. The posts from Fungo, FBM, njbb, bbscout, FrankF, justbb and others combine to provide terrific insights.
The reason I started this thread is to explain that it can be difficult to accept and acknowledge that your son is a baseball player to you and the fans but in his profession, he is all of those and he is also a commodity, a contract that can be bought, sold, traded, promoted, demoted and released. He can go 3-4 and drive in runs in a game, walk into the clubhouse and be told, at 11pm, to be at the park tomorrow morning at 7am as he is being shipped elsewhere. It happens to everyone of these players and it brings home the "business" side of baseball.
The reason I started this thread is to provide some idea of how mentally strong, determined and focused minor league players need to be to succeed in their profession, and even then, the organization will conclude most of them "failed."

This has been a great thread and should be moved to a new home in Golden threads!

Thanks all!

It sure has taken a few twists and turns hasn't it?

Very good thread.

Oh my gosh TPM, I totally agree with you

This thread definitely deserves Golden Thread considerations. I will not lie! peace, Shep

I agree, an excellent thread - what great posts from many members with first-hand experience. Thank you!

Moving to Golden Threads...

Very well said infield dad,
Many players who hang up the cleats, tell stories of the great times they had in the minors and I'm sure they were many but we all tend to remenber the good times and forget the bad.
Professional baseball is a emotional roller coaster for the players and their famlies.

Simply put ....There are pros and cons to both (as w/ anything in life).....educate yourself as much a possible and make a decision.....Obviously the college coaches want you to go to school and the pro guys want you to play pro ball.........Each situation is different and unique.......I guess I'm up in arms about people trying to sway someone they have never met to make a major life decision......I feel this is not the place to get advice on wheather one should decide to play pro or college baseball.......maybe I'm wrong, and I do understand the passion that goes into the advice but I just do not feel this is the place based on each unique case......

If you want to go to college and play then go to college and play.....

If you want to play professional baseball then play professional baseball.....

Come up w/ a $$ figure and stick to it......It's the kid who has to go to school or play pro ball and no one else......

That's LIFE....Don't get a headache about it....If you are in that postion to make a decision you are very fortunate......

I DO NOT MEAN TO OFFEND ANYONE>>>>>>>>

quote:

I feel this is not the place to get advice on wheather one should decide to play pro or college baseball

SAY WHAT!!!
I think this is the best place in the world to get that advice. This is the only place that I know of where you can hear it from those players (and their parents) that have gone to college out of high school AND those that have turned pro from high school. In order to weigh options one needs to gather information. Infielddad gives a very accurate description of the highs and lows of minor league baseball. His son had to make some very important decisions about college and about professional baseball and he has shared those decisions over the years. I appreciate the experiences shared by those that had traveled the path before me. Obviously you feel that sharing opinions are good or you wouldn't have posted yours on this topic ----- you said it very well and I happen to agree with when you said:

quote:

If you want to go to college and play then go to college and play.....

If you want to play professional baseball then play professional baseball.....

Come up w/ a $$ figure and stick to it......It's the kid who has to go to school or play pro ball and no one else......

That's LIFE....Don't get a headache about it....If you are in that postion to make a decision you are very fortunate......

LOW337, Your suggestion and contribution to this topic could help a young player or his parents make a very important decision? We need to keep talking and giving our opinions so our sons can make the best choices. That is the soul of the HSBBW.
Thanks,
Fungo

This is definately a place to come for advice, read different ideas and stories and look for answers. You can get a different perspective or piece of information that you would have never had just pondering the question on your own. However, just because one person says something does not make it true or accurate for your particular situation.

It's up to each of us to to be intelligent and read, do research and then apply the gathered information to each of our own unique situations.

Low - I didn't really think this thread was about choosing between college and pro ball. I thought InfieldDad and our other parents of drafted players were sharing their son's realities of playing ball in the minor leagues. I appreciate hearing about their stories.

I do still feel like they are blessed. I think those players are blessed to have an opportunity that very few have. Do I think they live blessed lives every day? No - it's obviously a very hard road. It's a road that any parent could understand them giving up and I would suspect some parents would be happy if they gave it up and didn't put themselves through the particular challenges day after day.

Again, I've enjoyed hearing the boy's stories and continue to cheer for each and every one of our HSBBW boys as they try to move up!

Low - this is a wonderful place to gain insight into people and baseball.

I don't have a headache about my sons decision to go pro out of high school. just trying to provide a little insight.
I have to admit to headaches during hitting slumps

nj....If he wasn't a prospect, with his offensive numbers this year, he would've been "launched" already. Key will be the end of the year...was last year atypical (an aberration) or was this year more typical, offensively.

I have to agree with Fungo.
This is absolutely the place for Parent's and player's to discuss there concern's.
It really help's a lot to hear other Individual's Concern's and decision making.
Most everybody has a good idea of what there thinking of doing but it help's to have your concern's discussed by other's.
EH

Infielddad's post was awesome and right on.

OK OK OK......My main beef was w/ a few people really leaning one way when giving opinions as advice.

Let's try this:
Pro Ball "Pros":

1. get payed to play (perhaps large bonus)
2. more games which provide more opportunity to develop. 68 - 76 games in short season. 140 games full season
3. professional instruction (position specific)
4. can get school package (there are stipulations)
etc...

Pro Ball "Cons":

1. potentially nine months away from home
2. the grind (often you will not know what day it is)
3. if signed for little or no bonus you must produce or be able to help develop others or you get fired (released)
4. the longer you wait to go back to school to get degree the more apt you are not to go back at all.
5. risk of injury

College "Pros":

1. progress towards a degree (we hope)
2. college experience (possible summer league experience as well)
3. may have ability to get home to see family
4. hopefully some school is paid for


College "Cons":

1. too few games played (intra squad in fall, 56 in spring) some vary, i'm referring to D-I.
2. often you don't get position specific instruction nor quaility instruction.
3. Coach or someone important to you on the staff could leave. (could affect scholarship)
4. risk of injury

My feeling is you can go back and forth as to what is a better choice. But it is all relative.

You must come up w/ a $$ figure and stick to it.
It may be: 20K , 100K, 300K, 800K, 1Mil, 3Mil.
That is up to the player/family. How much is 3 to 4 years of school worth to you.

And yes the more money a pro team has in you, the more chances you will get. They want their investment to succeed or help them obtain talent.

Hope it helps.

And yes I realize that I meant to put this in the Pro vs College Forum....

Just pretend that's where are right now....

Low337,
I can understand how your post and views relate to the thread in About the Draft and the debate about what to do if your son is drafted in the first round and offered first round money. Lots of advice being given there. Seems to be a fair amount of "disinformation" included in some of that advice.
I don't think anyone in this thread is offering any advice on college vs pro.

Beenthere,
I have a very opposite view on your post.
For a high school player drafted in the first 10 rounds, I would think the Royals are going to be extremely patient. They have completely changed the approach offensively and you would have to think the Royals feel confident Chris has the ability to make those adjustments and be even more successful once he is comfortable with them. If Chris were perhaps a senior sign out of college, the timetable and expectations might be quite different. I don't think Chris needs to put any pressure on himself over the last few months of the season and don't think there is any reasonable chance he will be "launched."
I have an awful lot of respect for the scouting opinions of bbscout. I remember his posts after the Fall instructional league. He reported he loved what he saw in Chris as a player. I feel comfortable that is a shared judgement among those who make those decisions.

Excellent Post LOW337!!!! I have refrained from posting in this thread expressing my opinion but here it goes.

Some very valid and good points came out of that last post. The main one was, "come up with a figure and stick with it"-LOW in pre-draft agreement.
Don't get greedy and miss your opportunity.

The one part of my experience personally after signing in the "PROS" pointed out in LOW's post was the instruction received on a more individual basis, daily.

In college, it was much different and we all seemed to train as unit or team most times with the same practice schedule and routine, most days. Infield/outfield practice, cages, tee-areas, batting practice on field...well, you know the drill.

In the professional level, the coaches were always making suggestions, doing advanced drills, helping in cages, and breaking down each individual's mechanics in order to make adjustments and corrections. Teammates were always helping and teaching through experiences. This was empirical and made the difference for many.

Through the years of observing pro teams in the leagues I've covered, I have found that each organization does take pride and works very hard to bring out maximum potential of players.
Each organization does keep putting player back out there until the player does one of two things: makes necessary adjustments and excels or fails and falls flat on his face in pro ball. Some just can't make it at this level, whether it be because of injuries, or level of competition. Those are the harsh realities of success or failure in the business aspects of baseball at the highest level.

LOW337 did point something out that is sooo right about the amount of money invested in player. I fell victim to this harsh reality in the business aspects of who gets released myself! I have seen this happen O too many times! Top picks are given many more chances than lower picks. Unfortunately, that's just the business of investments of property.

Look at it this way, the odds of your son signing a professional contract are about one in a 100,000 each year according to statistics of draft eligible candidates. You have accomplished a major feat in the simple fact of defying the odds of being signed at all, and yes YOU ARE BLESSED! IMHO, I think what I'm hearing is the harsh realities in this thread of players personal experiences, which there are a lot more who don't succeed in pro ball than do. I didn't succeed, but Im thankful to have experienced the opportunity because a 100,000 others the year I signed didn't!! At least when you're done, you can look back and know you have done everything possible to achieve your dream. LOW made it much further than I and is an excellent scout, instructor, coach and has played with and against the best of them and we can draw a great deal from his experiences! Collectively, I just don't think we should portray pro baseball as a dreadful experience here at HSBBW messageboard because so many parents and HS age prospects will have an ill-conceived outlook which may hinder his progress to attain goal of being chosen to play by professional scouts. It's all about the DREAM. Lets not deprive a young man of at least getting through the first hurdle by painting an ugly picture! peace, Shep

quote:

Unfortunately, that's just the business of investments of property.

Shep,
That is exactly the point I made. In the world of professional baseball, the players are viewed as "investments of property." I am not expressing opinons on whether that is good or bad. I merely pointed out it is a reality and one every parent and player needs to appreciate when they sign a professional contract.

"It's all about the DREAM. Lets not deprive a young man of at least getting through the first hurdle by painting an ugly picture!"


There really isn't any effort in this thread to paint a picture other than reality. Our son has had the exhilaration of being drafted. To this day, the scout who signed him talks of how profoundly the scout was affected when that occured because it meant so much. If I had my way, I wish he could relive that day one million times. Rather than deprive anyone of that dream, I encourage every player and parent to believe that dream can come, if you work hard enough, are good enough, and get a little lucky along the way.
Our son has overcome obstacles and had great and wonderful experiences including being selected for an All Star game where everyone knew he was the very last player selected for an assignment in April.
On the field, he loves and cherishes every minute of what he does.
I am sorry if some of the off the field elements are interpreted as "ugly."
I don't think they are "ugly." They are some of the facts of life for that "person/player" who is referred to rather matter of factly as an "investment of property."

Infielddad & Others,

I just wanted to say thank you.

I never knew what it was really like in pro ball until I started reading this site and probably will never truly understand the full scope of it. I hate to say it, but a lot of these kids and us parents too, some times have these fairy tale ideas of what it will be like and how it will turn out.

We all want a happy ending for our sons. Maybe, for a lucky few it will come true. But at least these kids will be a little more prepared for the reality of what lies a head with the help of HSBBW.

Good Post Infielddad but I do have rebutttal

Look at the title you gave this thread>Still want to play professional baseball???????

Maybe it's just me, but I interpret that as to say, be careful what you ask for because you just might get and not like it! If I were a 15-17 yr old reading some of the negative overtones in this thread about pro baseball I may change my direction to pursue golf or some other sport instead All joking aside, you know me well enough Mr A to know I personally wouldn't do that, but some aren't as determined as others, like me. Nothing can take me away from my dreams and/or aspirations and my attitude of intestinal fortitude until I have exhausted every possibility and then I still won't give up! Now that's just me.

On this board for example. Decisions can be swayed with just a little negativity for a teenager already fighting puberty with so much temptation all around them pulling them in other directions. Parents may even persuade alternate routes for their sons after reading some of this causing me and LOW and others to miss out on the next Major League player

On the other hand, I really have enjoyed the posts in this thread and do also think the truth should be told from true to life experiences and that's what I meant when I said last night, I will not lie! The truth should be told about the business of professional baseball so the prospect can prepare better and know what to expect. I really enjoyed fungo's post early this morning and put a great deal of thought in what he said, "I think this is the best place in the world to get advice"-Fungo

In defense of LOW337, what I think he meant, and I may be wrong, is something entirely different than fungo responded to...This is what I think LOW meant> sitting down and speaking with an individual who represents a college or pro team to get a feel for exactly what's expected, how much money and what the player will get in return, is more suited than basing decisions off messageboard of disgruntled parents and players who feel their dream not reaching fruition. Well, it happened to bubandbran, Oldpitcher, me, LOW, beenthere and a host of others here on this site in our pro playing careers too but I'm not going to discourage others from at least getting the same chance I got by questioning my own personal decision to play pro ball because it didn't work out. In other words, go over a few things with recruiter, face to face, with all the realities beforehand in order to make decision.

This board is an excellent venue for so many areas involving the big picture and is a good place to get feedback and a dose of reality, for sure. Peace, and you are all my heroes! Shep

Great idea making this thread Golden

To me, knowledge is power. Thus, I view this thread in a positive light. I didn't see anywhere that it was suggested that in hindsight that playing pro baseball was "possibly" not a good idea. What I take from it is this:

If your son should happen to be drafted someday, of course celebrate the achievement. Before sending them off and over time, you can fill them in on some of these "realities" so they have some mental background for the difficulties that lie ahead and to know they are not alone. I believe someone who knows ahead of time about some of these difficulties may be better equipped to deal with the grind than someone that discovers these things on their own. I am sure that some of these things are tough to deal with regardless if you know the score beforehand or not.

Here is a little anecdote I heard from Jack Nicholas many years ago and it goes toward his mental toughness. He said he was in a golf tournament playoff with 3 others where there were ominous weather signs like dark skies, rain, hail, thunder and even some lightning in the distance. Each of the other three golfers in the playoff kept looking at the skies and saying out loud "Surely, they will postpone this until tomorrow, how could anyone possibly play under these conditions" All the while he on the other hand went about his business taking his practice swings and prayed inside they would make them play it out right then and there for he knew that he already had them beat mentally. They never postponed the playoff and he said it was the easiest playoff win in his career.

I imagine times are tough for every player at the next level. When the bus rides become a grind, the pay is not adequate to pay your bills, your employer gives you no respect, and there is constant fear of losing your job, use these hardships to mentally get one up on the next guy who may just be thinking to themselves "How could anyone possibly play under these conditions?"

Great job to all.....

quote:

On this board for example. Decisions can be swayed with just a little negativity for a teenager already fighting puberty with so much temptation all around them pulling them in other directions. Parents may even persuade alternate routes for their sons after reading some of this causing me and LOW and others to miss out on the next Major League player

Shep,
you know the baseball business lots better than I do.
I will state that, from what little I know, the players who "might be swayed" from a little reality, or "negativity" to use your term had better be an amazing talent. If this type of player is not an amazing talent, the type of mindset where they can be easily swayed means they may not love the game enough, have the passion to succeed, or the mental stamina to deal with life in the minor leagues in any event. They better be really good or they are not going to make it anyway and may well not even if they are amazing talents.
If there are universal traits in the minor league players I have met, the two most apparent are wonderful talent and mental strength/dedication second to none.
If a major league team were looking to invest $1,000,000 or more in someone who was swayed by my postings on this site, maybe I will have done them a service that all the predraft interviews and tests would not have noted. . But, I don't think so.

Wow, many excellent posts in this thread!

As an aside, I figured out how to move the whole thing to the Golden Threads forum, but still keep a shortcut (post with a little blue arrow) in the Going Pro forum where it originated. Ha, I am still figuring out some of these things, after more than a year.

Julie

Well your doing a great job at it Julie. This Thread did truely deserve Golden Thread Status.

I still want an Answer to one of my Post's, About what a Scout think's of a player that after being Drafted in the Late Round's.
A DNF player, That chooses to go to D1 College.
Does it Hurt he's chances later as far as being Drafted.

As a parent are whole goal was to see how far baseball could take are Son.
And to take advantage of everything that the sport had to Offer.
The EH and Family Play Host to Minor Leaguer's each year.
And everyone we have taken in has either Graduated are had at least 3 yrs. of College under there belt.
One was Drafted Released and Signed again, And some were
1st round draft pick's that signed after there Junior Year's.

The only differance I see in each is the fact that on one side the Parent's still have to help out the Player. And on the other the Player, Help's out the Parent.
But they still have to perform, and grind out the Minor league schedule. And they love it.
I've seen the Accomplishment's and the Setback's first hand.

It is a Personel Decision that a Young Drafted player need's to think about before they go one way are the other(College vs. Pro).
When do you as a Player Feel you have the best chance of Succeeding in Pro Ball. After HS are After College.
My Son Made his Decision and I believe he made the Right Decision for Him and him only. It's a Personel Decision and should remain that way for he is the one who had to make it.

I believe that if it is meant to be it will happen one way are another. EH

quote:

The EH and Family Play Host to Minor Leaguer's each year.
And everyone we have taken in has either Graduated are had at least 3 yrs. of College under there belt.

Not a greater love for the game than this! You are da man EH!! Answering your other question might get me in hot water so I will pass on that one to a parent or player who has hands-on experience Peace My Brother(&Family)
Shep

"In the professional level, the coaches were always making suggestions, doing advanced drills, helping in cages, and breaking down each individual's mechanics in order to make adjustments and corrections."

Shep, with all the items being discussed, I wanted to make sure this point you made is not overlooked. While I don't know that this is unniversally true, in fact some information suggests it is not, professional baseball does have extremely good teachers/player development coaches. I have mentioned several times how I watched a hitting coach completely rework the swings of two players last summer. In mid June, both were struggling below .200. With one, he worked daily, for hours on end, to shorten the swing and make it more direct to the ball. It took over one month to make the adjustment. Improved both the average and power numbers significantly and the player is now in AA. For the other, the coach worked on keeping the bat through the hitting zone longer. Player ended up hitting almost .350 for the last 2 1/2 months of the season with terrific power. Unfortunately, he has not recaptured that swing this season and seems unable to get similar assistance to reaquire the magic.
In his first Spring Training, our son had some opportunities to talk hitting with Dwayne Murphy, the former Oakland A's centerfielder, and took every oppotunity to do it. It was invaluable to hear and learn from someone he knew could really play the game. Helped him immensely adjust his approach at the professional level, perhaps, more mentally than physically.
There is little doubt that players can improve on the field at a much more prolific pace in professional as compared to college baseball. That should never be doubted or mistaken, or lost in this thread about the impact of the "business of baseball" and dealing with its off the field ramifications.

infielddad ...

From what I have watched with our son, there are both types of managers/coaches. His short season coaching staff was not very "hands on" with the players, especially the pitchers who were closely watched for the first month+ without any 'tweeking' at all. Low A ... excellant coaching staff who really seemed to work at their developmental roles. High A ... son seems to be gleaning more from the same pitching coach he worked with at the end of last season, and the new manager, Brett Butler, is quite the educational manager ... obviously trying to teach the guys how to play the game. Can you think of any better manager to teach small ball, bunting, base running/stealing, going to the plate with a plan and not just swinging for the fence every at bat? (Unfortunately, even some of the good players are not necessarily coachable ... makes me wish the kids who have a little less talent could take their places for a few weeks to show what motivation really means, but I digress.)

Since minor league ball is supposed to be all about development (and less about winning, tho that of course is greatly desired), it means a lot to the young men to have a quality coaching staff that works with them to help them realize their dreams.

Infielddad

That is an excellent post and glad to hear that the younger A benefited from the professional level instruction and just maybe when he is 100% and totally free of injury bug, the magic shall return Earlier this season in FL STATE LEAGUE, I actually went to see your son J.A., who I already knew about from our board here and he was on the disabled list so I didn't get to see him play for Dunedin in Vero even though one of his teammates in the dugout told me he was there before the game. I was there for several of these games in that series.
I have been keeping up with your son and wish him a quick return back here so I can meet him and scout him. Sometimes, a player is faced with aggrevating conditions and adversity, as you well know by now, that will eventually pass and how the player handles and responds to that situation is a high measuring standard that we look at very closely. I love the players who don't quit and will do anything within my power to help out when the chips are down. Your son is determined, I know that already. I admire a player who fights for his place and doesn't surrender when adversity comes along. It's really easy to just walk away and say, "I'm done", instead of putting up the good fight. Seems like your son has this same fight I have!
I say good for him


About the hitting: One thing that will help keep bat in the hitting zone longer for those that are too quick with arms and hands up and through the zone is let the ball travel deep in the hitting zone and develop initial trigger to be quick but at the same time concentrate on keeping barrel inside of ball. You want to be short to the ball and long in the finish which will also help hitter stay in the hitting zone longer. These are the same things Jim Thrift as well as other more experienced professional hitters worked with me on for countless hours before I got a taste of that magic! Sweetest taste in the world as a hitter to see success from hard work as I'm sure J.A. evidently has already experienced initial success. I wish him the best and will continue to keep up with him.
Peace, Shep

Shep,
Thanks for the kind words. They are very much appreciated.
Funny story on hitting at the professional level. Jason raves about Merv Rettenmund. Jason does see the ball long/deep into the hitting zone. Merv teased him like crazy about it and tried to get him to adjust to hit the ball more out in front to generate more power.
It was an adjustment he really struggled with and Rettenmund finally relented and reassured him he could hit at all levels of professional ball but would be a gap hitter only. When he asked Jason what hitting instructor taught him to see the ball so long, he said..."my Dad." Rettenmund suggested a "new Dad."
If I recall right, you saw some Dunedin BJays put on quite a hitting display for the entire series in Vero Beach????

Infielddad,

You're right I had to go back and look in my reports on that series but I was there for Ryan Patterson's unbelievable game he had with three HRs and nine RBIs. In fact, if you can believe this, he was also 6 for 6! WOW!!! I've been to so many games since then including four pro leagues until I had almost forgotten! What a series the BJays had against Vero in early May.
Very impressive indeed! Those hitting instructors must really be good in the Blue Jays system and sorry they took your job infield dad Peace, Shep

Upon further review I also see Matthews had six hits in that game as well and is currently hitting over .300 as of today

[the main reason he went to college turing down 1st round money out of high school was to avoid minor league baseball.]

This might be a dumb question...but this quote puzzles me. I thought that ALL players had to go through the minor league baseball experience..regardless of college experience. Even if you're a first round type..doesn't the player have to start in minor league and work their way up?

Newcomer,

They don't HAVE to, but 99.9% do. David Clyde came straight out of HS in 1973 or 74 and pitched for the Texas Rangers.

I believe Pete Incaviglia never played in the minors, unless it was after he finished as a big leaguer and was trying to get back.

It seems like Bob Horner was another one who never played in the minor leagues.

Like I said, nobody has to play in the minors, but there are very few who have gone straight to the big leagues. This year, Andrew Miller pitched in the College World Series in June and was in the big leagues in August or September with the Tigers.

My son's HS coach was an assistant coach at The University of Alabama the last 6 years, until taking the job here, and he told me that Andrew Miller was the BY FAR the best college pitcher he saw in his 6 years as a college coach. I thought that was pretty interesting.

Hope this helps you understands a little better!

Happy New Year!

I asked a question similar to this a long time ago and bbscout told me that since 1968, when the current draft system implemented, that only about 20 players have gone directly from high school to the major league.

Kinda sobering, ain't it?

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:
I asked a question similar to this a long time ago and bbscout told me that since 1968, when the current draft system implemented, that only about 20 players have gone directly from high school to the major league.

Kinda sobering, ain't it?

Yes sir, it is!

FO- You're correct, only 20 total, but not just from high school. There has been 20 players gone straight to the majors after being drafted. Only four of those 20 were from high school.

After some research, here are the names:

1. 1967- Mike Adamson, South Carolina
2. 1969- Steve Dunning, Stanford
3. 1971- Burt Hooton, Texas
4. 1971- Rob Ellis, Michigan State
5. 1971- Pete Broberg, Dartmouth
6. 1972- Dave Roberts, Oregon
7. 1973- Dick Ruthven, Fresno State
8. 1973- Eddie Bane, Arizona State
9. 1973- Dave Winfield, Minnesota
10. 1973- David Clyde, Westchester HS (TX)
11. 1978- Mike Morgan, Valley HS (NV)
12. 1978- Brian Milner, Southwest HS (TX)
13. 1978- Bob Horner, Arizona State
14. 1978- Tom Conroy, Gateway HS (PA)
15. 1985- Pete Incaviglia, Oklahoma State
16. 1988- Jim Abbott, Michigan
17. 1989- John Olerud, Washington State
18. 1993- Darren Dreifort, Wichita State
19. 1995- Ariel Prieto, Fajrado University (Cuba)
20. 2000- Xavier Nady, Cal-State Berkeley

Cal-State Berkley? Aren't Californians touchy about the Cal-State/ U Cal thing? There were at least as many spending a season or less in the minors. Houston Street and ARod come to (my little) mind.

"Cal-State Berkeley" is a no-no!

Its the University of California at Berkeley...and its the 'original' University of California.

Just an FYI. There is a 3-tiered college system here in California. The UC's, the States and the JC's. The UC's are the toughest to gain admission too. I know at least one kid who was denied admission to UC-Berkeley and UCLA but granted admission at Stanford. Point is, its VERY competitive and a lot of "good" students leave the state to ASU, UofA, OSU and UofO to get the "full" college experience with competitive football teams and all of that.

Attending a JC and doing well for 2 years guarantees your admission to a UC and its an option many families choose with limited means...as the JC's are very inexpensive.

And BTW, San Jose State (a state school) supplies more engineers to Silicon Valley than any other school in the world. They also have significantly more recruiters visit their campus than any other school I could find. It is a VERY well regarded undergraduate engineering school.

You probably didn't care about all of that, but now you know.

My bad! lol

MLB website has it listed as "Cal Berkeley" and there was another reference to Fullerton, so I accidentally made it Cal St.

correction:

20. 2000- Xavier Nady, UC Berkeley

I know I bring him up all the time but my favorite young guy in the majors story is Bob Feller. He started his first major league game when he was still in 11th grade in high school and struck out 15 batters in his debut. He returned to high school after that season to complete his senior year and then continued with his stellar HOF career - shortened by four years of military service during the prime of his career. He was the epitome of the term "phenom" for baseball imho. I wonder if there will ever be another like him. For me, Babe Ruth will always be the greatest player but Feller is right up there with him imho.

With respect to Berkely, I wonder if there may be some political corretness at play. Berkely was a symbol for the radical 60's and the name itself still implies radicalism imo. It seems the term Cal is much more heavily promoted than the the city upon which it stands.

Since it was the 'original' University of California...it has long gone by the name "Cal." I don't think it has anything to do with the town. The university itself is generally considered very liberal as well and I don't think they run from that reputation at all.

Did you know?....that the UCLA fight song (at least the music) is the same as the Cal fight song...but played slightly differently. Listen next time they play on TV.

UCLA introduced a "new" fight song in the late 80's/early 90's...but I don't hear it played nearly as much as the "University of California" one.

Nice job there, JH. I guessed on the 20 and the 1968, but I had seen that list somewhere, probably in the lost long ago archives.

But, I didn't know that only FOUR were out of high school.

Makes going to school look interesting, doesn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I know I bring him up all the time but my favorite young guy in the majors story is Bob Feller. He started his first major league game when he was still in 11th grade in high school and struck out 15 batters in his debut. He returned to high school after that season to complete his senior year and then continued with his stellar HOF career - shortened by four years of military service during the prime of his career. He was the epitome of the term "phenom" for baseball imho.

I'm wondering what his high school coach thought about Bob skipping his senior season...

I went to the Bob Feller museum in Van Meter Iowa this year, I was surprised to hear that his 2 best seasons were the 1 before the went to war and the 1 after he came back. Imagine how many wins and strikeouts he would have if he had those 4 years back.

Rapid Rob!!!

[/IMG]

quote:

Imagine how many wins and strikeouts he would have if he had those 4 years back.

Indeed spinedoc I am guessing about 100 more wins and at least 1000 more strikeouts.

its - you are the undisputed king of the autographed memorabillia collection

cd -

I got a whole bunch of Yankees too. But most were made out to my younger brother - because I used to refuse them - being an avid Mets fan. LOL

(I kid you not - a few times - my dad freaked out because I showed a hint of disdain for the Yankees - in person LOL).

The only ones I ever willingly got were Bobby Richardson, Yogi Berra, Willie Randolph, Joe Pepitone, Dave Winfield and Derek Jeter.

P.S. - You should see my football and hockey collection!

Have a great New Year.

I work in Bellevue NE, and I know that Bob Gibson lives about 5 blocks from my office, but it is kind of understood to leave him alone. Too many people have showed up at his door with 3 balls for him to sign for their "kids"

quote:

Originally posted by spinedoc:
I work in Bellevue NE, and I know that Bob Gibson lives about 5 blocks from my office, but it is kind of understood to leave him alone. Too many people have showed up at his door with 3 balls for him to sign for their "kids"

About 5 years ago he cornered some guy who cut him off in traffic and beat him up. I'd leave him along too.

quote:

Originally posted by theEH: This Thread did truely deserve Golden Thread Status.


As a parent are whole goal was to see how far baseball could take are Son.
And to take advantage of everything that the sport had to Offer.

It is a Personel Decision that a Young Drafted player need's to think about before they go one way are the other(College vs. Pro).
When do you as a Player Feel you have the best chance of Succeeding in Pro Ball. After HS are After College.

I believe that if it is meant to be it will happen one way are another. EH

**** this is a great thread except for the one derailment****about BG

What criteria, set of circumstances would lead you to guide your son to sign out of high school, or concur with his decision to sign and forego college baseball ? When I mean "you", I mean in your individual experience or potential one, not a laundry list of pro/con factors.

"What criteria, set of circumstances would lead you to guide your son to sign out of high school, or concur with his decision to sign and forego college baseball ? When I mean "you", I mean in your individual experience or potential one, not a laundry list of pro/con factors."

We are possibly facing this choice too. Would appreciate hearing how others have counseled their sons with the choice if it presented itself. Our son has made a verbal committment with a good program/good school but has pro-ball as his goal.

From someone who went thru this many years ago. At first I was settled in to the idea of heading to college - a top program. As Spring baseball season started the hype began with all the Pro guys, coming to games, practice, calling on the phone. It was always my goal to play pro too while it was my parents goal to send me off to school. I started to think go pro and forego college after a good spring. When draft day came and my name was not called as high as I hoped, that had to have been the biggest "downer" day of my life. It takes the wind out of your sail when you get your mind set for something that doesn't happen.
My advise is to be aware that it may happen to your son and talk about all the possibilities that "might" happen prior to draft day. The bottom line, it is impossible to guess what might happen as far as the draft and it could lead to some big dissapointment that you will need to deal with later.
Brn2hit - great post.

OS8

quote:

What criteria, set of circumstances would lead you to guide your son to sign out of high school, or concur with his decision to sign and forego college baseball ? When I mean "you", I mean in your individual experience or potential one, not a laundry list of pro/con factors.

Well my son made the decision.
But it was the right decision for him.

I think the Main reason for going to D1 college rather then Juco/Minor league's DNF.
Is the fact that my son was not physically or mentally ready for the rigger's of pro ball.
And if he was ever going to get a college education?
He's at the right school for him.
The support factor was huge in his decision.
EH

quote:

What criteria, set of circumstances would lead you to guide your son to sign out of high school

His physical stature and mental state(Maturity).
Would guide me?
He's a late bloomer and could use the extra time to get stronger both Mentally and Physically?

I could give you a list of individual concerns I had and concerns my son had about turning pro out of high school but I think most players and parents have the same concerns. Some people address those concerns and find a solution and some chose to ignore them (not good) and suffer the consequences. Like most players, those concerns in my son's case would have been coped with had the money been right. We discussed “what ifs” at length before and after he was drafted. I kept asking myself four questions over and over and weighing the pros and cons:
1. “What does HE stand to lose if he goes to college?”
2. “What does HE stand to gain if he goes to college?”
3. “What does HE stand to lose if he turns pro out of high school?”
4. “What does HE stand to gain if he turns pro out of high school?”

If you ask yourself those questions I think you will be better able to advise your son. He may ignore your advice but that's another topic!
Fungo

My son went pro out of high school, (it is alot like throwing them in the deep end to teach them how to swim) It was what he wanted to do and our family supports his decision. His father was "drafted" out of high school and they sent him to Vietnam, that kind of put things in perspective.

With the elimination of the draft and follow rule, this years draft should be much different than drafts of the past. You're either in...or out, especially HS fence-sitters who have their eyes set toward the Major Leagues. What's more important to the player is even a better question to ask this year. Pro or College?


Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer

quote:

PopTime, with all due respect, I wonder how much you know about life in the minor leagues. Quite clearly my comments were not directed toward those players who are set from the time they sign their contract and receive the draft bonus. It focused, as Dad04 confirmed, on the other 90% of those in minor leauge baseball. Playing professional baseball, even in the minors, is the dream of so many. What you, at some point, find out is what you thought of as a game is really a business. The business is both physically and mentally demanding as well mentally and emotionally exhausting. Minor league players are not protected the collective bargainning agreement. Again, with all due respect, confusing the "riches" of those at the major league level with the process in the minor leagues that "might" get a player to that level isn't reality, but it might be a bit "silly."
I wonder which jobs you think are MUCH worse. Through A ball, the minor league players get paid either $1,150 or $1,350 per month. They play 29 days per month. With bus travel, which is extensive, they average a 12 hour work day. That ends up around $4.50 per hour for their work. From that, they pay room/board etc to live, they pay the locker room attendant, fines, etc. What is a job that, just from a pay perspective, is MUCH worse than that?

Sounds like a high school teacher who coaches baseball - the ones who take it seriuosly and not the ones who use it for a check.

I went way back in time to get this post - I think it is the second one from this topic. I just started reading it today.

I have a daughter and son in law who are teachers that also coach and a son in the minors ... the 2 jobs are nothing alike.
I don't know if any one has mentioned that players don't get paid during spring training, instructional league or winter work outs.. that takes up about 3 1/2 mos. so their only paid for 5 1/2 mos.
Players have the choice and they are doing what theywant to do.. But its not a glamorous life style.
The posters who have sons in the minors are only trying to give the other members a realistic idea what life is like in the minors.

Let's see....

I leave my house at 7:30 am everyday - teach six classes and during my "free" period I coach my players in a PE class.

I get out of school at 2:45 and have about 15 minutes before practice / game.

If it's practice I get done by 5:30 and get home around 7 if I am lucky - I have to make sure my field is in good shape before I leave and make sure all my players have rides before I leave. Nothing like the parent who won't pick their kid up after practice because they have something else to do and never consider to have another plan ready for their kid.

If we have a game at home I get to the field by 3:15 for batting practice and usually throw it. While they are stretching I then have to chalk the field and get everthing ready. Start the game at 5:00 and it's over by 7:30 usually. Then I have to stay for the JV game. It's over at 9:00ish and once again I have to make sure the field is ready for the next day. I get home between 10:00 - 10:30.

If it is an away game we leave the school at 3:00 and drive at least an hour to our closest game - by the way I am driving the bus (for free). We get to the field by 4:00 and have an hour to warm up and start at 5:00. Same thing with the JV game. I have to stop somewhere and feed the guys (and yes some of them don't have money so I pay for their meal too). We get to the school around 10:00 and once again I have to wait on kids to get a ride. If I get home at 11:00 I am VERY lucky.

Then I get to get up and do it again the next day.

Other things to consider...

Teachers happen to be one of the lowest paid professions there are and baseball coaches happen to be one of the lowest paid coaches in schools. I work 185 days during the school year and that is what I am paid for. So those summer months well the crazy thing is I am not paid for them.

I was actually paid more to be an asst. football coach than to be head baseball coach - figure that one out.

I have to make sure we have enough money for our sport and organize the fundraisers and get the guys to do them.

I have to deal with parents of kids who think they happen to be better than what they really are. In the best of times they drag my name through the mud because "I don't know what I am doing" - although I have more district champions in 7 years than the other coaches had in 33 years.

In the fall I deal with scheduling and off season workouts. I have to make contact with college coaches to try and get my guys into school - yes I have some really good players who can play college ball. In 7 years I have sent 8 guys to college to play.

What I took from your post - please correct me if I am wrong - if you love baseball and CHOOSE it to be what you spend your life doing you HAVE to make sacrifices and put up with a lot of stuff. I knew going in how much work I would have to do and how little I would be paid. I don't complain and I hope my previous post isn't taken that way. I was going with the angle that if you love BASEBALL the game you have to make those sacrifices and put up with that stuff. I was just trying to sympathize.

Oh by the way - about the "business" side of coaching high school baseball. If I don't win then I get "relieved" of my coaching duties.

I wonder if that is a euphanism for getting fired??

Also, if you LOVE the game of baseball you accept the bad with the good. You don't do it because someone "makes it fun". Trust me it's not fun working that hard - I don't go out and celebrate the fact I will spend a couple of hours with a rake in my hand. I do it because the two hours I spend in practice or game is awesome. It drives me to do what I do - that is passion. I have fun in a difficult situation because I LOVE baseball and will do whatever it takes to be in the game. I know if I got the opportunity to play minor league baseball that is what would drive me - LOVE of baseball. I would have "fun" becuase I was given the opportunity to catch a groundball or take batting practice and then play a game.

I was lucky enough to play college baseball and I really wasn't that good. I made the team because I worked my butt off in practice and the offseason. At any time I could have been cut from the team so I had that hanging over my head. I chose to put myself in that position because I LOVE the game of baseball. Did I get paid? No - I played for free because I didn't get any scholarship money. Did I enjoy working out that hard and that long? No but the fact I got to spend time playing baseball was worth it - once again I chose to do this because I LOVE the game.

The point I am trying to make is that if you choose baseball as your life you are going to work your butt off and be a second class sport. Only major leaguers "have it good". Everyone below major leaguers face hardship and obstacles. They still do it because they LOVE the game. How much you work, how little you get paid or whether someone can / will take the game away from you is something you have to do because you LOVE the game and want to be there. Minor leaguers don't have a monopoly on hardships and LOVE for the game - if you play / coach this game you will have it tough in some sort of way.

If your daughter and son in law don't have to go through what I go through to coach baseball tell to never leave that school. Most schools - especially in a rural area - go through what I go through in order to coach baseball. If they don't they are VERY lucky and should not leave - then again if they don't win they will probably get fired.

I wish I could trade places with any minor leaguer because as much as I LOVE coaching I want to play the game even more. I hate seeing kids and young men in college and the minors take their talent for granted and not enjoy being on the field. If you don't love the game then don't play it because the hard work that goes with it is not worth it. That goes with anything you do. If it's worth having and doing you MUST work for it. Why do you think people who are millionaires from creating a business and seeing it grow keep their money more than people who win a lottery who are usually broke after a couple of years? It has to do with hard work - they achieved success from putting up with a lot of stuff. Same with baseball players - if they want to be "millionaires" they have to put up with the stuff that is hard to do.

I know I am probably rambling in what I have just put but as soon as I read both of your responses there were a million things that went through my head. I am glad you have sons who play minor leage ball - I would LOVE to do what they are doing but I am not good enough. But that doesn't mean I have it easy because I don't play minor league baseball. Get off your high horse and realize everyone has to work hard to achieve something.

"I am glad you have sons who play minor leage ball - I would LOVE to do what they are doing but I am not good enough. But that doesn't mean I have it easy because I don't play minor league baseball. Get off your high horse and realize everyone has to work hard to achieve something."

Coach, sorry you were offended by my comments describing some of the experiences about the business side of life in the minor leagues. Sounds like you work very hard and love the game a lot. My efforts to describe that life were not meant, in anyway, to comment on the devotion of others in the path they have chosen for their life. Good luck to you.

Just re-read most of this thread and it is always interesting to get the different perspectives, even tho I have read them before.

During a conversation with our son the other day from Spring Training, he talked about how many of the other players in his draft year were no longer around, whether moved up, traded, or released. I know that every time one of his 'draft mates' or teammates is released, he feels a sadness for them because he knows how hard everybody works out there. He has real compassion for them, especially knowing that it could be him, but for the grace of God. And I think sometimes the reality of releases hangs over their heads more than the financial struggles or the travel (he is looking at 12-16 hour trips this coming season if he ends up in Alabama).

Still, I am sure he wouldn't change anything for the world and fortunately he is supported emotionally by a wonderful wife who also endures some sacrifices for him so that he can follow his dreams. I admire all these young men who are working so hard, just as I admire any young adult who is trying to make something of their lives whether in college or at a 'regular' job or the military. And I am thankful that we live in a country where our young people are free to make those decisions for themselves.

Life is good, isn't it?

quote:

"I am glad you have sons who play minor leage ball - I would LOVE to do what they are doing but I am not good enough. But that doesn't mean I have it easy because I don't play minor league baseball. Get off your high horse and realize everyone has to work hard to achieve something."

Before I pressed "post now" last night, I deleted several thoughts and figured I would sleep on Coach's posts and statements.
When I logged on this morning, I wanted to make sure I was on the HSBBW where we talk about baseball. Then I checked to make sure I started this thread in the "Going Pro" section.
Finally, I reread my first post that started this thread. All I tried to express were some feelings about the business side of the minor leagues captured as I watched a friend and former teammate(traded to that night's opposition as he walked into the stadium) of my son drive off with his new wife in their 19.. something pickup at 11pm at night.
Not sure where I created the perception that I was on any "high horse." Not sure how I created the "perception" that those not playing minor league baseball have it "easy." Certainly not sure where I created any perception that school teachers/coaches or any other job doesn't involve hard work, if you want to accomplish something.
In fact, I already posted that baseball is a game and this thread was never intended to compare/contrast with those risking everything in the line of military service.
Bottom line, Coach, I don't think I posted anything to create your response. I will continue to post about life in the minor leagues and will do so knowing that is all I am describing. If you want to take it and compare it with the daily journey all of us take through life and work, so be it. I cannot control perceptions that my posts are not intended to address.

quote:

Bottom line, Coach, I don't think I posted anything to create your response. I will continue to post about life in the minor leagues and will do so knowing that is all I am describing. If you want to take it and compare it with the daily journey all of us take through life and work, so be it. I cannot control perceptions that my posts are not intended to address.

I re-read some of the repsonses in this thread and believe some of the members have taken some of the discussion out of context and/or read too much into the point of the original topic. NOWHERE did infielddad say because of these issues, he was advising HIS son to retire from the game. He is merely raising the issues for discussion. I see it as a public service. Knowledge is power and can only help our sons deal with difficult circumstances SHOULD they be presented with those issues. Lets not shoot the messenger but keep these discussions on BASEBALL as they should be.

quote:

Then I checked to make sure I started this thread in the "Going Pro" section.

Well I found this in the golden thread forum. If I knew it was in the Going Pro forum I probably would have reacted differently. I will apologize for that one.

When I quoted your post for my first response I didn't mean it as a criticism to you. In fact when I went back to the posts I "went off on" you didn't post them. It was njbb and 20dad - and maybe I mistook what they put. I sincerely apologize to you infielddad because I was not directing anything at you.

Here is what upset and offended me.

njbb

quote:

I have a daughter and son in law who are teachers that also coach and a son in the minors ... the 2 jobs are nothing alike.
I don't know if any one has mentioned that players don't get paid during spring training, instructional league or winter work outs.. that takes up about 3 1/2 mos. so their only paid for 5 1/2 mos.
Players have the choice and they are doing what theywant to do.. But its not a glamorous life style.
The posters who have sons in the minors are only trying to give the other members a realistic idea what life is like in the minors.

20dad

quote:

Not sure if 20dad is going to show up but its a picture of hands clapping and a sign that says agree 100%.

I agree that playing in the minors is tough (although I have no first hand experience) and it's a business. I was just trying to make a small comment that it's hard work to be successful. I was intending to basically back up what you said infielddad. The high horse was for njbb and 20dad.

I apologize for the mixup between you and I infielddad.

I was not saying my daughter,son inlaw or you for that matter are not hard workers... I said the 2 jobs are nothing alike. Where my daughter and son inlaw put in their hours of work then return each night to live and eat in the comfort of their home. My son who also puts in his hours of work, lives with a stanger (roommate)in a motel room 9 months out of the year. eat only in diners, fast food.. (hey it sounds like college student) After games traveling 6 to 7 hours through the night on a bus to arrive about 5am to sleep in the lobby till they let you check in or go lift. this is done week after week. One day you could be released or be moved thousands of miles to another team (which in his case involved being dropped off at a Chicago bus station in the middle of the night to catch a bus) if he did have family they are not the responsiblity of the team and its up to them to stay or find their own way to the next team . These are some of the reasons (in my MHO) you can not compare the 2 jobs,
Yes its great to play baseball ..... But you have to consider the life style..

coach, thanks for the post and clarification. Everything is fine on my end.
BTW, njbb is one of my favorites because her posts are so straight forward and do reflect the real world concerns of a loving mother with a very, very talented son, who signed out of high school. She has never posted from a "high horse."
While njbb does not need me to stick up for her, I think her last post tells you so much about her feelings for her son and the life he leads off the field, from the perspective that only a mother can experience.

I am not sure where this thread took a turn, but I have something to say.
Infielddad, Fungo, FBM, njbb, OPP I have learned alot from you regarding life and the business of minor league ball.
Please continue to post your thoughts regarding the above. It is very important for parents and players who are making decisions to understand both sides to this aspect of the game. While it is every boys dream to wake up everyday and play baseball for a living, it is also very trying and difficult at times. It becomes your JOB.
My understanding is that, unless you have been through it, or have a son who is or has, you really don't understand.

JMO

The posters who have sons in the minors are only trying to give the other members a realistic idea what life is like in the minors.
----------------------------------------------------
coach 2709
my reply was to njbb 's post, as i feel it is why we are all here.it wasn't meant as a slam to anyone. your a teacher and i applaud you for your work. but your doing something you love,for small money.someday you'll make more. same thing with minor league ball players exept they have no pension and are really the lowest paid as they only are paid when they work. but the do it because they love it and maybe someday they will make more. you have to understand that? my favorite closing remark from another poster:

( if you can read this thank a teacher,if your reading this in english,thank a soldier)

quote:

Infielddad, Fungo, FBM, njbb, OPP I have learned alot from you regarding life and the business of minor league ball.
Please continue to post your thoughts regarding the above. It is very important for parents and players who are making decisions to understand both sides to this aspect of the game. While it is every boys dream to wake up everyday and play baseball for a living, it is also very trying and difficult at times. It becomes your JOB.
My understanding is that, unless you have been through it, or have a son who is or has, you really don't understand

Forgive me, TPM, but I was about to say that..............

I'm still watching, even if I didn't post..................

Thanks Infielddad, Fungo, FBM, njbb, and OPP.

I've observed a lot by watching ya'll.

I still can't find my previous post in this thread.

Waaaaay back when I first found hsbaseballweb, "Going Pro" was not a topic that received much thread time, the main info that I was fortunate enough to gain through this site, was the college-as-next-level sort...pro ball seemed like a distant possiblity.

Actually seeing my son by-pass college to play pro ball was the LAST thing I was expecting. After being drafted #595, my son shocked his family by choosing to by-pass his full-ride at a JC. That was the day that I had to tell myself that my son(at 18 years of age) would be making his own decisions from that point on.

It was his decision to succeed or fail, his decision to adjust to his ever-changing environments and his decision to do what it took to make himself a valuable asset within his organization... of course all of this process took way more than just "deciding" to make it happen.

Every step of the way he has worked harder than before, every step of the way he has had more distractions to avoid, every step of the way he has had to grow into a more mature young man than many of his contemporaries may have chosen.

I guess my son was fortunate... he came from a very working class family with a raised-on-the farm work ethic. He was also fortunate to experience "winning" through hard work at a very young age while others around him experienced winning because of who's son they were or what their family name was....

Lots of folks have given great advice in this thread, but there is no reason for any person to feel that any of the advice is universal or "ultimate".... different strokes for different folks!

Play ball and those that combine their talents best with a work ethic to maximize those talents will experience the level of success they deserve, and ultimately each individual player will judge themself... that is what matters-.... and after playing baseball ends, they will get on with the rest of their life....Just like a real human being!

Hope I am still around in years to come to read threads about baseball-playing sons that are posts written by the folks that we have been writing posts about!

OPP, your awesome my man.
And you raised a strong young man.

No matter what road a player take's, I think they all want to take it to that next level.
And there are many next level's??

Work Hard and Believe!!
And there's NO Limit to what you can achieve.

EH

Well I apologize to everyone because clearly I am in the wrong and over reacted. I did not see this thread in the going pro forum but in the golden thread. Maybe this would have changed my outlook.

My original post was not about comparing the two but obviously I did a terrible job of getting that across. I just wanted to state (in a humorous way) that it's hard work to make it in baseball regardless of what you do. No I cannot compare riding the bus and staying in hotels and all that to teaching and I wasn't trying to. I just wanted to state that it's hard work regardless.

I was too sensitive to what the other two people posted and went to far.

Basically this comes down to me not being clear and overreacting.

I apologize to everyone. My bad.

Coach2709,
Im sorry if I offended you, it was not my intent.
Sounds like your players are lucky to have such a hard working coach

If anyone wanted to read a book about life in the pros theres a book call "Inside Pitch".

Coach2057,

I actually think you brought up some good points. We often concentrate on the bad rather than the good side of being a professional baseball player.

There are some very different things between playing professional baseball and teaching/coaching at a high school.

While playing in the minor leagues can be hard, with long hours and not much money… It is still something that most young players want to do.

They still call it “playing” rather than “I work in the minor leagues”! I’ve never heard a young player say… He “works” for a major league club.

Probably the most notable difference is what happens if you become one of the best in your field.

As one of the best high school coaches or teachers what is your peak earning potential? How long does it take to reach that level?

As a professional baseball player what is your peak earning potential?
How long does it take to reach that level?

I do believe “most” minor league players are underpaid. But the majority of anything that could be called “work” is for individual reasons. The minor league player does not “work” for anyone other than himself. You could say he is somewhat self employed, despite having a contract with one organization.

Playing minor league ball is not easy. The travel and pay are tough for some players, but they don’t have to take care of the field or deal with parents.

If we think the players have it tough, we should feel even more sorry for many of the professional scouts out there. They are paid in the same range as teachers and if you think players travel a lot, think about the scouts this time of the year. Crosscheckers and scouting directors can have a problem knowing where they are from one day to the next. There are area scouts who cover 5-6 states and they do their own driving (no bus driver).

Guess what I’m getting at… I don’t ever feel sorry for any young man who is playing minor league baseball. In fact, I’m very happy for them! After all, they’re doing what millions of young players would do for nothing… They’re “playing” baseball at the professional level. What “job” could be better for a baseball player? How many jobs have the potential earning power of a professional baseball player?

There is always two ways to look at things.

I really hope the parents of professional ball players will continue to post about what life is like for their sons.

I have probably learned more from reading posts here about the “REAL” life of a player in the minor leagues than by any other means.

I have to admit I took some of the things I learned here and passed them on to my son.

It hasn’t stopped his “Dream” but at least when or if the time comes to make that jump, he will at least be doing so with his eyes wide open.

For all the information that you parents have passed on I must say, “thank you.”

njbb I am not offended but frustrated I did not do a good enough job getting it across.

PGStaff you pretty much summed up the point I was trying to get across.

It was posted on here about the work that is involved in hs coaching and got me thinking about the minor league coaches and managers, they too are living the same type of life as the players,traveling ,living away from home in motels,fast food. Only after the game they have to make reports, talk to the higher ups. Plus baby sit the players....

PG, as usual, brings a very good focus. Those comments, along with the always terrific insight from CD, lead me to this post.
My son would probably be horrified that I started this thread. He is living a dream!! Never complains about the 13 hour bus rides, pay, living situation, off season conditioning, etc. He cherishes nearly every single minute.
In 2005, his manager was almost apologetic when he didn't get a day off in almost 40 games. My son responded that there was no need to worry, he would play every day, every game if they would let him. Jason often jokes how some of these situations are an upgrade from baseball at the DIII level.
His off season conditioning program and rehab over this winter are a reflection of pure passion. If you can imagine walking on a treadmill on a 4% incline at 3.5 mph, doing 15 reps for 30 seconds...walking on your hands, you have an example of his efforts to be ready by 3/5/07. You do not extend yourself physically to the point of tears unless you are singularly motivated and love what you are doing.
I can assure everyone that my son does not want anyone to feel sorry for him. He, much better than I, understood that when his ex-teammate and wife drove off at 11pm, they did so in pursuit of a dream, also.
This post/thread is solely some reflections from the view of a parent about the off field and the business side. I should have made that distinction from the beginning.

njbb ...

quote:

Plus baby sit the players

And in some cases, as I am sure your son has reported about some of his teammates, this may be one of the toughest parts of the coach's job. When one or two players start acting like prima donnas ... well, I guess it isn't any different than high school ball or college ball in that respect.

I really admire the minor league coaches, and it is educational to sit on the side lines at spring training and listen up on what the coaches have to say to each other about what is happening with the players. Two years ago, the low A coaches for the Dbacks were talking about the work ethic and the hustle (or lack thereof) that some of the players were manifesting. It was interesting I think for the very reasons mentioned above ... here these coaches are living the same nomad life, living away from family, etc, and they are watching players with a ton of potential practicing in a lackadasical manner. It must be annoying, to say the least.

I also have to state that my son doesn't feel sorry for himself. why would he?

I had no idea what minor league life was like. I heard things about the life style but I didn't really understand. So I thought my posts may help to inform others

This thread has been most enjoyable. njbb - I have particularly enjoyed your participation over these past several days. infielddad - classic post and it is nice when we can all acknowledge when misunderstandings have occurred and that there is nothing more to it than that. PG - nice post

Coach2709 - please keep posting your ideas

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:

I had no idea what minor league life was like. I heard things about the life style but I didn't really understand. So I thought my posts may help to inform others

They have, thanks all!

What minor league life??? Click this :>)

3/15/07-Watch and listen to Gonzo's homerun and pay particular attention to the first Dodger to greet Gonzalez upon his return after hiiting the homerun>Click

3/15/07-Nomar Garciaparra's homerun>click and listen you baseball fans!

What does this have to do with life in the minors?
If you want to promote a player I think you should post it under the "Please let us know about your player" topic in the general forum

I agree that it can be rough for some minor league players with families and other expenses, but it is alot better now than it was years ago. My Great Uncle played minor league ball and then a short with the pirates; however he didn't get paid enough to support his family so he went back to West Virginia and worked in a coal mine. Now that's rough.

if i could play single-A for a living i would, no matter what my salary was. i'd find a way to make a living.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

There are many MUCH worse jobs out there

PopTime, with all due respect, I wonder how much you know about life in the minor leagues. Quite clearly my comments were not directed toward those players who are set from the time they sign their contract and receive the draft bonus. It focused, as Dad04 confirmed, on the other 90% of those in minor leauge baseball. Playing professional baseball, even in the minors, is the dream of so many. What you, at some point, find out is what you thought of as a game is really a business. The business is both physically and mentally demanding as well mentally and emotionally exhausting. Minor league players are not protected the collective bargainning agreement. Again, with all due respect, confusing the "riches" of those at the major league level with the process in the minor leagues that "might" get a player to that level isn't reality, but it might be a bit "silly."
I wonder which jobs you think are MUCH worse. Through A ball, the minor league players get paid either $1,150 or $1,350 per month. They play 29 days per month. With bus travel, which is extensive, they average a 12 hour work day. That ends up around $4.50 per hour for their work. From that, they pay room/board etc to live, they pay the locker room attendant, fines, etc. What is a job that, just from a pay perspective, is MUCH worse than that? Better stop typing, this is making me upset.

I could think a ton of worse jobs. Custodian, garbage man, fry cook at mcdonalds, etc.

I know they don't make much at all, and work very hard, but there are other people that work much harder than they do, and make the same or less money.

I do think that pro ballplayers get paid way to much money. I don't care how good they are, there is no way A-rod deserved to get 250 million (he didn't get all of it, but that was the contract) form the rangers, when there are doctors who work more hours than they do, and don't getpaid anywhere near that, yet they are SAVING PEOPLES LIVES. All the ballplayers do is provide entertainment, and nothing more. They give money to charities, but they are still merely entertainers, and thats all it amounts too,and they make too much money to be entertainers.

quote:

I could think a ton of worse jobs. Custodian, garbage man, fry cook at mcdonalds, etc.

Adam, I am not sure I could have been more clear in my post. My comments were focused on the minor leagues and the pay in the minor leagues. Each job you have included is protected by the federal and state minimum wage laws. A fry cook at McDonald's, earning the minimum wage, gets paid more per hour than a minor league player at the lower levels.
Since you have such a problem with the amounts major leaguers are paid, do you have similar type feelings for the owners of those clubs who made money in private industry and then pay those salaries as opposed to donating the money to charity?
You are indeed correct that MLB is an entertainment business. It attracts billions of dollars in revenues because people love to watch the game being played or the beer that is being served, or other such things. With those billions in revenue that MLB is receiving, why do the players earn too much money, when it is their talent that is responsible for the popularity of the game? Are you proposing the money should only go to the owners and to MLB/Bud.

[/QUOTE]I do think that pro ballplayers get paid way to much money. I don't care how good they are, there is no way A-rod deserved to get 250 million (he didn't get all of it, but that was the contract) form the rangers, when there are doctors who work more hours than they do, and don't getpaid anywhere near that, yet they are SAVING PEOPLES LIVES. All the ballplayers do is provide entertainment, and nothing more. They give money to charities, but they are still merely entertainers, and thats all it amounts too,and they make too much money to be entertainers.[/QUOTE]


Funny that only ballplayers are over paid. Nobody whines about the actors and musicians making too much. I think ballplayers work quite a bit harder than these other entertainers and most do not make near the same money.

IMO you are worth what the owners will pay you.

shock jock Howard Stern is paid $100 million dollars per yr.

Institutional Investor's Alpha magazine lists the top Hedge Fund Earners for 2006 and the top 25 all earned above 240 million.
Top earner James Simons of Renaissance Technologies earned 1.7 BILLION.
Kenneth Griffin and Edward Lampart each earned 1 Billion plus.

J. Bradford Delay an economist at CAL questioned what the hell they are doing that is worth that kind of money. He said it is ****ed mysterious.

The earnings of most occupations rarely equates to reasonable compensation at either end of the spectrum.

I know some kids out of college and even older who work all day at low paying jobs, then go practice or play baseball in a town league most every day including weekends from April until September.

They pay their own travel expenses, pay for food, and pay for everything else that is required. Some have little if any insurance and have problems making ends meet. They practice and play for zero! Worse than zero, it actually costs them money to play for nothing but the love for the game. Might not make sense to all of us, but that is loving the game.

This town league is full of players who would trade places with any minor league player in a heart beat.

The "real" players aren't playing baseball for the money. Yet some of them make it and end up being very wealthy. Others become wealthy the day they sign a contract. For most, wealth is not the right reason to be playing baseball.

I know others who practice and play golf every day of the week. Some who even travel all over the place to play golf. Why do people do this? Then there is the serious softball player or tennis player. How many golfers, softball players or tennis players get paid to play?

There are kids who practice and play baseball everyday in the summer. Sometimes they pay for this privilage. They travel all over the country doing this, it's actually their life for the summer. Often their parents pay a lot of money to do this. It's very tiring and hard, but many of the kids really love it and can't wait for the next summer to do it again. They are among the "real" players.

There are people who spend their entire summer coaching youth baseball for no financial gain. Sometimes people do things just because they love doing it.

Back to the town leagues, they charge at the gate and sell consessions and print programs just like a small time minor league club. But the players play for nothing and they have almost no chance of making the big time dollars in baseball. I know it's not the same, but there are some similarities.

Life time minor leaguers might have had a better life doing something else, but they just didn't want anything else. I for one can respect that and understand it.

Finally... I too believe minor league players are under paid. I wish they were paid enough to live more comfortably. There is an obnvious inequity from the minor league 1st rounder and the 35th rounder. They have the same job, but one has much more security. But we have to remember that the MLB club puts a value on a player before he signs on. If that value is a thousand dollars, they don't think of you as having a lot of value. It's up to the player if that is something he wants to do. And to prove the MLB club wrong as to his value.

Sometimes that is exactly what happens!

PG

You're absolutely right.

A long time scout once told me, "The club pays out the right amount of money every year. Sometimes we just give it to the wrong guys"

Ya infield dad the minors are tough but if you love the game of baseball as much as I do you would play for a penny.It is a matter of how much you love the game of baseball

Wow, the last post in this thread was from 2007

It is amazing when I see these "revived" threads from so many years ago.  Those of us who have been here so long recognize some of the contributors (especially bbscout and futureback.mom) and realize how short life is.

 

As PG said, this thread dates back to 2007 but it is nonetheless so powerful.  For me, it puts into context everything Bum, Jr. is going through (now) as a minor leaguer.  In 2007, Bum, Jr. was an up-and-comer 17 y.o. with hopes of just getting to college.

 

Now he's jumped 4 pro levels in less than a year. Where will it all end?  Who knows.  But he's still in love with his high school sweetheart who has remained faithful to him while he chases a dream that may never come to fruition. 

 

Good for him.  When I look back on my life it was never the money that mattered.  All of my fondest memories were of chasing my dreams.  I'm older now, but the day I stop dreaming is the day life becomes meaningless.

 

 

 

 

It's fascinating to hear from those of you who were here back then ... weighing in now on these long-ago threads. Wow. If I could just find out who Bum Jr. is, I would bookmark him on MILB and follow him .. and root for his success. 

 

LOVE that he's still with his HS sweetheart. Good on you all around, Dad.

Honestly, this game of baseball is the most interesting ride.  I am going to let my son finish his senior season of college and then tell his story.  It is educating. And relative.  

Wow, glad to see this thread was bumped. Lots of pretty cool posts from some old timers.

 

And, to answer the question, "Still want to play professional baseball???????"

 

Yes.

 

 

 

What an interesting golden thread. I went back and read most of it. Thanks for teh bump

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports....off-waivers-from-as/

 

Darrin's parent is a long time poster here and Sam is a family friend.  Sam was a great student with a Stanford degree in statistics. We've talked about whether, even as a major leaguer, he would have made more money as a private citizen.  32 years old, 10 years in, still making close to the major league minimum and has to start from zero when he's done.  He's been up and down the maximum number of times and teams have saved a lot of money by switching him in and out.  Peripheral players like Darrin and Sam really get undercut by the system. 

I agree these guys get cut short and spend a lot of time going up and down but many still make a decent living. Most guys don't even make it this far. They should have something to show for their efforts, JMO.

 

40 man players DFA don't make minimum milb pay. Son has a friend who is a pitcher that has been kicked around as well. His milb pay was up to about 200k,  he just signed as a FA with another team, and he is making well over the ML minimum.

The thing that stinks is that you never know where you will lay your head at night, but most wouldn't trade it for anything.

Our older son is friends with Sam.  They never played together in college, but have become friends through the 'network.'  While I've never met him, I am told not only by our son but by others that know him that he's a great, GREAT human being.  He's also perhaps the best college center fielder I've ever seen.

 

I was at a Cubs game the very first day that Sam Fuld spent in the major leagues.  Just by chance.  I wish absolutely nothing but the BEST for Sam Fuld.  

We LOVE Sam and his wife Sarah, who went to Princeton herself.  Special people.  Sarah babysat our children.  Sam and my son used to work out together in the offseason.  Sam should write a book about the math of "employment risk" professions like sports, acting, drug dealing, commodities trading, etc.  The subject was dealt with briefly in "Freakonomics" but Sam and Sarah are statisticians who have lived the paradox.  Only the top few percent in these professions make it big, but they make it SO big that they create a huge supply of backups who barely hang on and are usually better off doing something else.  As a math guy - I think the subject is super interesting.

Another perspective perhaps...

 

http://www.thedp.com/article/2...banski-embraces-penn

Things don't always go as planned.  There is the financial side of baseball and there is the educational side of baseball.  Some things can't be taught in a class room.  Most never get rich playing baseball, but their journey in life can certainly be impacted by their baseball experience. I like to think playing baseball is part of that person's education.  It's never a waste of time unless you allow it to be.

No question, there are lots of things that can’t be learned in the classroom, there’s much insight and wisdom which won’t be found in a textbook.  I know that baseball can provide life experiences that won’t likely be found elsewhere.  Learning certainly has no boundaries.  But a formal education (be it a four-year college, junior college, vocational/technical training, etc.) can be the path many individuals (including former athletes) need to travel down in order to ensure a stable livelihood.  There are exceptions of course, those who bypass college for whatever reason yet become huge successes (maybe in baseball); a college degree does not absolutely guarantee a secure future, but it is the ticket that many must get punched moving forward.  And the combination of that formal education along with the lessons learned through life (including baseball) can be very powerful.  Granted, things don’t always go as planned, and sometimes that is due to events out of our control, the choices we pursue in life, and, like it or not, the actions of others.  How effectively we are able to harness all that happens to us, and channel those experiences towards other goals (including helping others, improving a situation, promoting a worthy issue, etc.), can be a measure of our makeup in the long run.  For my sons, baseball has been a main driver in their lives and they wouldn't be where they are today without it...and what they learned through baseball will likely continue to shape who they are for many years to come.   

There is, however, a quality of life aspect that can't be put into dollars and cents. Being lucky (or talented) enough to be able to spend a significant portion of your life doing what you LOVE to do for a living is an experience that can't be compared with alternatives by math. If the main purpose of a person's life is to amass wealth, then math works perfectly.

My point was... Those years spent playing professional baseball should end up being valuable years.  Not just in terms of income, but the experience itself can create some good qualities that fit well in nearly every field. Not to mention, a professional baseball resume can open doors.

 

Obviously a formal education is extremely important.  I look at life as being a combination of everything each person experiences.  That college grad that never got involved in sports will never know what the college grad that played professional baseball knows.  Likewise, the college grad that didn't spend time playing sports might know other things that the professional baseball player never experienced.

 

Point is, it is all important and helps form who we are and how we think.  The sad thing is when someone never learns anything from their experiences.   Only then is anything a waste of time!  

Darrin got picked up by the Jays, I believe it was the team who drafted him.

I reread a post that I made 7 yrs ago on this thread..and I haven't changed my mind... Baseball is a tough life style.

Wally's son mention that he did not want baseball to own him....I think while your playing it does.  My own son stated after he left baseball that he felt like his real life had just begun . 

His baseball experience has opened many doors for him During his nine yrs of pro ball son got his degree On his MLB scholarship plan and now works for Yahoo.... And loves his new easier life style

Chris loves the game itself and always will, and would have continued to play in a heartbeat, he was very close to the big leagues and the injuries couldn't come at the worst time in '09 and '10, but it was the "business of baseball" and all that goes with it which compelled him to seriously rethink his future outside of the game.  Yes, pro baseball is an industry just like others in many ways but, at times, it also operates in a different galaxy than what my family was accustomed to, and Chris believed it was time to start new chapters in his life.  As I've said before, talent, performance, character, and work ethic can get you very far in this game...but only so far at times, there can be much more to it than that and some if it boggles your mind and challenges your soul.  Chris (as well as my other two sons) was extremely blessed to experience what he did in baseball and he will be eternally thankful for so much of it but, despite the injuries, there were obstacles and issues which precluded Chris from moving forward.  I admire so very much the players who continue to live their passion on the diamond, season after season; that passion burned in Chris as well, and likely still does to a large degree, but the "peculiarities" of the pro baseball business was the impetus behind Chris' pursuit of other career paths.  Good luck to your son njbb, I remember him well, excellent infielder! 

WallyL- I just recently stumbled across a story highlighting Chris's adventures and newfound passion. Great to hear he's pursuing another path, no doubt he'll find success.