Swimming as off season training for pitchers?

Several of the D3's that recruited my son as a pitcher only, mentioned that their pitchers spent quite a bit of time in the pool for conditioning. Not sure this helpos but thought you might like to know that some colleges are doing this now.

I'm not sure I like the idea of this. Especially swimming with weights?

Your arm is abused during the season, I don't think it's necessary to abuse it during the offseason as well.

Swimmers also have a lot of overuse shoulder problems...

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Swimmers also have a lot of overuse shoulder problems...

Swimming is great, but I think the above is an issue. Swimming is another overhead arm motion that I think might put a little much use on the pitching arm. I think they get enough of that during the season.

I'm no expert on it, just seems to me like that is something I would be concerned about.

You do not have to use your arms to swim. My boy swam with a club but does not anymore due to time constraints. Use flippers and keep your arms at your side. Using legs and body to swim can still be a great, maybe better, workout.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas1836:
You do not have to use your arms to swim. My boy swam with a club but does not anymore due to time constraints. Use flippers and keep your arms at your side. Using legs and body to swim can still be a great, maybe better, workout.

Haha. I'm not sure that technically qualifies as "swimming" then Texas. Maybe/kinda. Call it water activities rather than swimming.

bballman - Understand, but for workouts, the little squirts had to do this.

I am nowhere near the top levels of baseball and do not know why folks want to swim other than as Bishop said for conditioning. If a kid is only looking for aerobic conditioning/stamina, then they can do it without arms.

I had thought that swimming would be good for my boy if he continues in baseball because it works the heck out of your body and can be used year-round. Then I read that a lot of swimming can be hard on shoulders so I thought maybe not, except as I have described.

As I have posted several times, bleachers are a very good workout. Go hard for two or three minutes, rest for 30 seconds, repeat until you are heaving. Gym bleachers in the winter if there is ice outside.

Hey Tex. I was a swimmer in HS and then for a little in college. Did the whole club swimming thing when I was growing up, so I know how good shape you can get into from swimming. Especially if you really have someone pushing you. I also know that, overall, it is good on the joints because there is no impact. I've just heard and speculate that the repetitive overhead motion is not good on the shoulders. I know both my shoulders are bad, although I'm not sure if its from swimming or doing a lot of heavy bench pressing after I was done swimming. What you are talking about is probably good for the legs and core. We used to do a lot of them in practice as well.

I think for pitchers, sprints and other explosive leg work, like the stadiums you are talking about are good as well. Really not trying to be abrasive. I'm just thinking all that over the head rotation from swimming might just be too much for a pitcher.

No problem, you do not come across as abrasive. It seems that most of us are concerned about excessive shoulder-wear that can result from a lot of swimming.

Several schools our son was interested in, including the school he committed to, use swimming for recovery. Most here are misinterpretting the level of water training. I am a former swimmer and former swim coach. An elite swimmer, especially distance swimmer, risks shoulder injuries. Aquatic training for pitchers is more for recovery. Many use aqua belts and do specific exercises. We are not talking swimming high quantity laps on an interval. There was a good article about UF using swimming with their pitchers on their website. Their strength and conditioning coach even had one of his pitchers train in the water during the summer at Cape Cod. I know that Auburn and Stanford use some swimming as well. I'm sure there are others.

quote:

As I have posted several times, bleachers are a very good workout. Go hard for two or three minutes, rest for 30 seconds, repeat until you are heaving. Gym bleachers in the winter if there is ice outside.

I have a new brother-in-law who is a sophomore I believe at Indiana on the baseball team. They had to run the steps at the football stadium one day last week... He said that's quite a workout!

Interesting thread! I've posted before on swimming and how it helped my son. But he swam on competitive swim teams from the time he was 4 to about 12. He was never very fast in the 40 or the 60 yard sprints (on land), but none of his baseball team mates could beat him across the pool. I believe he got in the pool a couple of times in college?

The initial post indicates “off season training”. I believe the benefits will outweigh the negative aspects in this case. I'm just guessing here on how they conduct workouts, but the pitchers are not going to be in the pool trying to make the next Olympic swim team. So the work out should be solid consistent motion across the pool. This will balance musle groups on both sides of the shoulders, down the back and across the chest. Add the other parts of the core and legs all getting a good “LOW IMPACT” work out; I see nothing but good things here!

Wow great input. Thanks. I am the OP and haven't had a chance to jump back in here for a few days.

The funny thing is, my son was just saying this summer that he really isn't much of a swimmer, we never did push swimming lessons. he can get across a pool, of course, but nothing stylish abot his stroke.

Then on an OV, the coach said all his pitchers swim 3x week off season. Oh well, I guess he will become a better swimmer!


This guys is a very successful coach and I am sure it works, as some of you describe, solid low impact ovrall conditioning.

My wife was the one pushing swimming. She swam in college and wanted our kids to appreciate the sport. It was much later that I started to understand and realize the benefits to playing baseball, especially pitchers. I hear and read about swimming use of the same motion as throwing and how could that be a good thing. Then on the other hand others maintian kids don't throw enough. Hard to say really, and everyone is different and what works for one may not for another. IMHO, the strength a young person develops in the upper body from consistent swimming practices (not just getting in the pool and playing) serves the young athlete of most any sport. When you start considering the stress placed on the upper body as a pitcher (or any hard throw for that matter) accelerates to throw and then decelerates; how do the muscles compensate if one side is stronger than the other? I see great potential for strained ligaments and tendons under this scenario.

Here are some articles I found on swimming and baseball pitchers. The first two are against it, the third is for doing water exercises for pitchers. I think the general consensus is that actually swimming, ie doing freestyle, is not great for the shoulders. Even the article that talks about swimming being a good thing only talks about doing about 2 minutes of actually swimming, the rest of the workout is resistance exercises in the water.

Make your own judgements.

Against:

http://www.ericcressey.com/swimming-for-pitchers

http://www.baseballfit.com/baseball-training-0107.htm

For:
http://www.thecompletepitcher....itching_swimming.htm

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
Make your own judgements.

Against:

First Article;
http://www.ericcressey.com/swimming-for-pitchers

Second Article;
http://www.baseballfit.com/baseball-training-0107.htm

FOR:
Third Article;
http://www.thecompletepitcher....itching_swimming.htm

Thanks bballman, I certainly appreciate and agree with many of the points made in these articles.

Agree with first article; No way should a pitcher be swimming conditioning between starts! WOW, never thought of that?

Second article indicates "to develop their arms and stamina". Again I agree with the article and never mentioned either for the benefits of swimming. The article pointed out "extended periods of time" in reference to swimming. I really like the point the article makes at the bottom with the ability of the baseball coach to develop a swimming routine?

The last article states swimming is good for "shoulder strength, endurance and stability." It goes on to say something about "keeping the shoulders submerged". The examples in the other articles show just the opposite.

All very good articles. Thanks for bringing them up here! I must say, my son did NOT engage in swimming workouts past the age of 12 or 13 and entered the pool for "fun" past these ages. So I have no firsthand experience with older players engaged in these type of workouts.

The last article goes into a lot of details on how this can help? It would be interesting to see any follow up studies by the other groups of the first two articles to study those engaged in swimming workouts as described in the third article?

Anyway, I have and do advocate this for kids under 12 or so. I saw some dads working their kids out with weights at these young ages! I believe swimming offers many advantages for young athletes.

I just re-read my post and one of the replies, and realize it sounded like "swimming with light weights" in my post. What I meant to say was, this coach has pitchers swimming 3 days; and on the 2 days in between, they do light lifting. This is off season training not at all between starts.


If my son ends up on this team, I think he will look into the details of this more carefully, so I really appreciate all the follow up from you folks.

I see someone has already brought up Eric cressey, who is against. Take a look at his website, he know his stuff. Also, my daughter is a competitive swimmer who has had a few shoulder problems along the way. After talking with ortho doctor, his preventative stretching and strength exercises are same as what cressey advocates. Any repetitive motion on an arm already taxed seems like a bad idea.

quote:

Originally posted by smalltownmom:
Several schools our son was interested in, including the school he committed to, use swimming for recovery. Most here are misinterpretting the level of water training. I am a former swimmer and former swim coach. An elite swimmer, especially distance swimmer, risks shoulder injuries. Aquatic training for pitchers is more for recovery. Many use aqua belts and do specific exercises. We are not talking swimming high quantity laps on an interval. There was a good article about UF using swimming with their pitchers on their website. Their strength and conditioning coach even had one of his pitchers train in the water during the summer at Cape Cod. I know that Auburn and Stanford use some swimming as well. I'm sure there are others.

Good post.

There is a difference between doing laps and recovery training.

People often get confused as to what will/does and what will/does not benefit a PITCHER.

Long distance running and swimming laps are not two of the benefits.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas1836:
You do not have to use your arms to swim. My boy swam with a club but does not anymore due to time constraints. Use flippers and keep your arms at your side. Using legs and body to swim can still be a great, maybe better, workout.

Thats how the schools explained it to my son. Lots of leg involvement and resistance work.

You all need to read the links that have been provided, there is nothing that suggests that using flippers and keeping hands down at sides is beneficial for pitchers.

Swimming is a good activity, but does it provide the reps needed to build the muscle properly without overloading? Pitchers are not supposed to look like the Hulk.

Can anyone provide supporting information that swimming is good for off season training (for pitchers).

running bleachers is tough on the legs---knees, hips etc

swimming isgood when done in moderation

I agree stadium workouts done on a regular daily basis can be counter productive.

I still would like to see supportive info from anyone that long distance running and swimming is good for training for pitchers.

Swimming For Pitching Success

Dana Cavalea CSCS

As a pitcher swimming is one of the best methods you could use in order to build shoulder strength, endurance, and stability. Whenever you have the opportunity to train in the pool, you will find that the water creates a very low stress environment on the shoulders, but provides a tremendous amount of benefits.

Often times many pitchers will go through their Jobes routines and shoulder exercises at relatively slow speeds and choose paths and ranges of motions that are restricted. The slow speed a lot of times are because of the pitchers lack of ability to stabilize the scapula, or shoulder blade.

When pitchers train in an aquatic environment, keeping their shoulders submerged, they are able to work full ranges of motion, at high velocities, while at the same time they are forced to stabilize their scapula. To make reference to scapular stabilization, I am referring to the ability to keep the shoulders pulled back, with the shoulder blade hugging the spinal column while the shoulder and arm are moving.

Performing your shoulder exercises in the water can be as challenging as you want to make them. The harder you push the water, the greater the resistance. So, there is no need to keep changing weights, or increasing the strength of the bands you are using, all you have to do is increase the force you apply on the water and that will increase the intensity of the movement.

To make water movements more challenging:
•Submerge your shoulders under the water
•Increase the speed of the movement
•Open your hand going from fingers spread to fingers together
•Increase the amount of time or repetitions you perform in the water

Following those aforementioned ways to make water exercise more challenging you will be able to constantly progress.

So what should we do while we are in the water??

The answer to this question is really just be creative. I love to have my pitchers swim to not only increase shoulder strength and endurance, but at the same to regenerate their tissues for recovery and provide them with a total body low-trauma workout. The great part about training in the pool is that you can give you workout a theme just as you do out of the pool. As an example, if you want to condition in the pool, possibly would:
•Free-style Swim for 2 Minutes
•High Knee Runs for 2 Minutes
•Breast Stroke for 2 Minutes
•Flutter Kicks on the wall for 2 Minutes

If you don't think 8 minutes of work is a good workout go ahead and try it! At the same time we aren't just looking for a good workout, we are looking to achieve our goal for that particular day, and that was to increase our current levels of cardiac fitness.

If the theme for the day is a shoulder routine, an option might be to perform all your Jobes exercises and other shoulder exercises in the pool with no weights, just the water pressure. Go through each exercise for about 15-20 seconds instead of doing a certain amount of reps and remember, since we throw at high speeds, go through your shoulder exercises and high, but controlled speeds.

In the pool the key is to have FUN and be creative. Just be careful about training in the pool the day before, and the day that you throw since you will find that your shoulders will get fatigues rather quickly from aquatic training.

As you can see, it is NOT distance swimming. A matter of fact, alot involves kicking, and for short durations. My son does not do this although I wish he did. The school he will be attending does use swimming for pitchers. Several schools he was recruited by, including some very good baseball schools, use swimming as well. This summer there was an article about the Gators use of pool workouts. I can't find it now. They were encouraged by UF strength/ trainer to use it while at Cape Cod.

As a former swimmer and distance runner, no way does a BB player put himself through that type of training. Talk about messing up your fast twitch muscles....

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DANA CAVALEA's Summary


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That's a great article thanks. I like the idea of doing the "Throwers' Ten" program underwater. That sounds awesome! Doing aquatic exercises, aquatic therapy, etc is a great idea. I just would be concerned about doing overhead activities in the water.

I wish I had a pool I could stick my athletes in..

Two things to think about. How many baseball coaches and strength and conditioning coaches know how to teach or correct improper stroke technique? This is always the first correction made when swimmers are having shoulder problems. The instability created by pitching/throwing is very similar to the swimmer. You are not cross training, you are doing the same motion, creating more imbalance. IMO eric cressey has it right.

I tend to lean towards Cressey and his philosophies, but the above is not considered long distance swimming (by me anyway) but more as pointed out by bulldog excercises and therapy.

I guess a good idea would be to ask, during the players recruitment, the training staff on how they incorporate swimming if it is mentioned by the coaching staff the same for running.

I definetly don't want my son to work with anyone that beleives that pitchers need long distance of anything (would include swimming and running).

Bulldog 19-- I'm glad you enjoyed it. As I said, I have brought it up to my son but with limited time due to a very rigorous academic schedule combined with baseball-- his response is "when." When he graduates from HS in June it will be the first time in 4 years he hasn't had a magnitude of school work to complete-- and that includes his summers. I think he plans on incorporating it then, as they use it at his college. Unfortunately he inherited the same gene PUHD's son inherited. (husky) I'm thinking it could help keep him loose. I know when I ran marathons I used alot of water running with an aquabelt as I got older in order to save some of the wear and tear on my body.

TPM-- Our son didn't talk to any coaches who used either long distance running or ld swimming. His school does use swimming though-- but more like the article I posted. I was with my son during some of his recruitment and we visited with the strength and conditioning trainer at the school he committed to. I think a max run was about a 400.

smalltownmom,
I liked the stuff you posted. To be honest I have no clue as to what Dave actually does anymore for off season or in season training.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas1836:
You do not have to use your arms to swim. My boy swam with a club but does not anymore due to time constraints. Use flippers and keep your arms at your side. Using legs and body to swim can still be a great, maybe better, workout.

Nothing for the ol' core like 800 yards of dolphin kicks a few times a week.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

Swimming is a good activity, but does it provide the reps needed to build the muscle properly without overloading? Pitchers are not supposed to look like the Hulk.

I am resurrecting this with my quote as I just recently found out that son is swimming during off season conditioning.
One morning a week, goal is 12 laps (olympic size) using all strokes. Includes resistant exercises as well. Limited to 45-60 minutes per session.

Sons off season conditioning includes (and should) all phases of excercise, which includes but not limited to swimming, weight lifting, cycling, runs, pilates, yoga as well as mental training.

Encompasses all phases of working all of the muscle groups and to avoid boredom.

Swimming is not and should not be in place of other forms of conditioning for baseball players. The way it was explained to me, too much of one thing is not necessarily a good thing.

I have two HS ballplayers that have been swimming competitively since they were young, and full-time on competitive club teams for the last 5 years. The only time they are not swimming regularly is during the HS baseball season. The younger swims AAA times, so he is obviously working quite hard in the pool. Both pitch quite a bit also - about 100 innings a year between HS, travel, and fall. Neither has sustained any arm injury other than general soreness. So, anecdotally, I can say that swimming has complemented their pitching quite well and has seemingly helped their durability. It goes without question that it has helped their fitness, although swimming doesn't do a whole lot for outright speed. It does work the core, and as noted in another post, stabilize the shoulder with strength in all directions. I am very much in favor of swimming for pitchers.

Wanted to resurrect this thread as I see many folks who are still active posters.  Looking for any updates over the past three years.  

 

As an aside, my 2017 came home the other day and said he wanted to start a football throwing program - apparently throwing with knees on the ground.  Sounded kind of a heavy load so started thinking about some other options (thus the swimming post).  Anyone try the football approach?

Haven't tried the football approach.  

Is he throwing footballs? 

The knock on swimming has been reports that it can cause shoulder impingement.  Not a good thing for a pitcher.  However, the studies that were done were following pretty high level competitive swimmers....college level swimmers, guys spending hours in the pool every day.   I like swimming fine as a way to get some cardio work in in a way that does not "pound" the joints or is not jogging.  

I have a friend who was a first round draft pick out of HS in the early 90's.  As a Junior he was a mid 80s LHP....back then that velo may have gotten you drafted, certainly a lot of college attention.  He started playing water polo during his junior year.  Water polo, of course, is tons of swimming and throwing an overweight (compared to a baseball) implement a lot.  If you look at the water polo throw the opposite leg (of the throwing arm) goes straight out front like in pitching and it has a good rotational element to the throw.  He ended up throwing 93 isn senior year of baseball.  He swears it was the water polo.  Was it the swimming, the throwing the water polo ball, developing the rotational element of the throw??....or was it just getting in the best shape of his life because of the water polo?  Or a combo of all of those mixed with physical maturity?  Who knows? 

I think swimming is probably fine as long as it is not over done.  

How timely. Just last night, my 2018 mentioned swimming over the winter to stay in shape. He and a friend had been talking about it. I don't know where they came up with the idea. I know it didn't come from a HS coach. Now I have some things to research and think about.

Cressey says no.  That was good enough for me.