Velocity Increase

Should be interesting to follow.

 

couple of things to remember...

 

1. Every player is different, so what happens to one may mean very little to someone else.

 

2. While there are training methods that can help, the one thing that most every pitcher at  a young age experiences is velocity gain each year.  How much of that gain comes naturally differs from one pitcher to the next.  Not to discourage what anyone does, the bands are great.  Just know there should be natural velocity gains every year among the younger group.

Interesting thread. 

 

My 2018 is about the same size as yours and throws at about the same velocity. He was clocked last December at a college camp sitting right at 70. We just bought a Jugs gun, but are still figuring out how to use it, so I'm not ready to gun him yet.

 

My 2018 has been using the Driveline Baseball remote velocity training since the end of March. It is hard work, and it's sometimes challenging to fit the extra work in each night with baseball and homework, but it I think it will ultimately be worth it. It is a weighted ball program, but his trainer is doing a great job of getting him to the correct fitness level before introducing the weighted balls. They are big believers in the J-bands as well. I will say that since starting this program, his arm has never felt better. He often makes passing comments about how good his arm feels and how he has no arm pain after pitching. He is building a great relationship with his trainer and sends him periodic videos of his pitching mechanics to get feedback and personalized drills to work on specific tweaks to his delivery. We don't live near Driveline, so the remote option is the best solution for us. Most of the private pitching coaches he has worked with in the past are minor league players, so they are only here in the fall/winter. This program gives him a consistent person to work with year around.  

 

I think his biggest issue right now is his growth. He is all arms and legs and he says he doesn't feel confident in what his body is doing during his delivery, like his timing is off. When you grow so quickly, everything about your delivery changes. It can take a while to grow back into your body and develop confidence again.

 

Good luck to your son.

NTG 2016 LHP son, with long toss and band work, plus regular throwing program outlined for him by local D1 school jumped from last year's 81 tops (range 78-80) at local venue with gun to 86 (range 83-84) at same venue in one year. These were velocities recorded in-game over four innings.

 

He was in a supervised, strenuous conditioning program from November through February and will resume it weekdays once HS season ends. Weekends are already taken up with the summer travel circuit.

 

6'0" 160lbs.Was 5'10" 140 lbs a year ago. Biggest benefit of his growth and the program has been his ability to go up in his pitch count with no residual pain/soreness and no fall-off in velocity in the later innings.

 

However, as his velocity has increased, his location has suffered. His instructors advise him to keep working on his body and as he becomes accustomed to the difference in his stride and arm speed his ability to locate will come back.

 

I guess that's the trade off as these kids mature and have to learn to cope with major changes to their bodies.

I would think those numbers are pretty typical for a kid who is working on his throwing.   I would guess my son's numbers were about the same.

 

My son is a 2015

 

January 2014.....up to 84 at an indoor showcase

April 2014....83-84 in his first HS start of the season

May 2014.....85-87....and 86 in the last inning of a 7-inning game

July 2014.....sat 85-86....up to 87 a couple times during travel ball

April 2015....first game of this spring  86-89....hit 90 4 times, 91 once, though I question this guy's gun a bit...it's always seemed a little high

Since....has sat 87-88 in last 4 or 5 games...hitting 89 often.  Last 2 games, he hit 89 on the last batter of a CG

 

Last spring he was 5'8, maybe 145.....he's now 6'0, 170....just turned 18 two weeks ago, so he's 9-10 months younger than a lot of 2015's

Started gunning my 2019 in 2013 when he was 12. He learned a change up and wanted to see the actual difference. This was in March right before the middle school season started. We did it again the next two years just to see what the improvement might be. He has worked on mechanics the last two year but we haven't done any velocity training and do not plan on it until that elbow growth plate closes. This was with a stalker.

2013 12 years old 5'2" 85 lbs 55mph
2014 13 years old 5'8" 110 lbs 62 mph
2015 14 years old 5'10" 135 lbs 73 mph

Pretty sure all his gains have came from growth. Most mechanical changes have been accuracy related or just being more concistant in what he was already doing.

What's funny is I've talked to a half a dozen kids or so who say they touch 80 so since my son throws harder than them he must be in the 80's. I just smile and say yep he must be hahaha.

       
       
80 at 12 would be ridiculous.  Is it possible?  Not sure.  Open minded to it but never have seen it.  However there is one kid in our area at 13 who I have personally gunned at 79 (and no not my son so I have no reason to lie, wish it was my kid though!) And I am sure he will hit 80 before season's end.  How many are.there in the whole country who can do that?  I would guess not many.

P.S. At 14 I wouldn't call 80 common but there are more out there than you might think.

       
       

What? My son is a 2019 he's 14. So are the kids saying they are touching 80. I was making a point as to how wrong they are. They say they throw 80 but my son throws harder. Well my son throws low 70's. Because they are wrong about what they throw then they are wrong about what he throws. I had two middle school coaches call me this year and ask if my kid was touching 80. I told them no and they said it's all their parents are talking about lol. Just making a point of how this velocity stuff gets blow way out of proportion.

       
       
Yeah I understood that.  And agree whole heartedly.  I hear it all the time too.  Then you gun it and its not close.  I was just saying that there are some out there.  And they are amazing to watch.

I might've seen one, but of course could not verify...now if you say freshmen at 80 then that is a different story (not saying there are a lot, but I'm sure it is more than at 14)...practically all the frosh on 2018's team are on the outer edge of 15 already...

But I'm in the NE so the arms hibernate during the colder months...

I've seen a handful at 14 at national events. I've also gunned an 84 at 12u at the USSSA Winter Nationals in Arizona a few years ago. This kid was sitting 81-83 later in the year at the NYBCs. However, at 14u PG was still only showing him at 82. he wasn't overly big at 12/13 (5' 8"). However, it doesn't look like he grew much over the next couple of years, but he's had a pretty good varsity career through two years.

I think many can see big increases until a kid hits low 80s.  Then it gets harder.

 

BTW, my son touched 81 as a frosh. I think he was 71 at 13, and 60 at 12.

Here is a theory...  once kids get.to 14 and they are.throwing 80+ many play on their 15u travel teams.  Could explain why people on here haven't seen many at 14u.  Again not saying there are a.ton just more than people think.  But.of course that is all subjective I guess!

Not sure if it is the same kid roothog is referring to, but I have seen a 12 year old touch 84 mph.  This was very unusual and looked extremely dangerous.

 

Just because we have the luxury of seeing many of the best kids, I have seen many 14 year olds throwing 80, even seen a couple touching 90 or better at that age. One of those is now a senior in high school throwing in the upper 90s. Possible 1st round pick this coming June.  If he were a bit taller, he would be cinch 1st round.

 

Each year at our National showcase we will have a very large number of kids just finishing their junior year throwing 90 or better. In fact, almost all of them throw 90.

 

However, if you took into account every pitcher of any age group, this large number of high velocity guys would represent a small percentage of all the pitchers. And some states might have a couple dozen while other states might not have one.  Then the state that doesn't have one, might have 5 or 6 the next year.

 

Puberty, natural ability, fast twitch or slow twitch, the weight room and mechanics all affect velo. I think i would have pulled my hair out if i was worried how fast my son threw before 15. Personally i think its a bit ridiculous since nobody is getting scouted at those ages....at least not scouted seriously and it doesn't matter. I do believe in self improvement, so i like the work....but am a bit concerned about the fascination with velo at the younger age.

       
       
Like anything else.  You are climbing a.mountain.  the more mountain you climb early the less you have to climb later. Getting scouted has nothing to do with it.  You are working as part of your journey to be scouted someday.  Its about setting goals or benchmarks and striving to achieve those.  The great players in any sport I know worked hard as kids to excel well beyond the point where they were already better than their competition.  Between my class, the class before me and the class after me we had five college scholarship basketball players (one an ncaa D1 National champ), a guy who played in the NFL and 6 mlb draft choices one who pitched almost 10 years in mlb.  This doesn't count the numerous other guys from my hometown who I played against when I was that age (13).  I know what it looks like at that age.   D1 or professional players don't just drop out of the sky they progress from the youngest ages on up.  You have to start early.  Can't sit back and wait especially in a skill sport like baseball.   And really if we were talking 9 year olds I might agree but 13 is starting to get down the line.  You bet you are being recruited at 15 and we are more and more seeing it at 14.  You can disagree with this practice of course but you can't disagree that it is happening because that is just a stone.cold fact.

I've never really tracked 2019Son. He's just been playing baseball. He's worked hard on hitting -- including having a hitting coach the past 18 months. He's always pitched, but never had pitching lessons. He has recently indicated a strong interest in pitching (his words to me a week ago: "Dad, I'd rather throw a complete game than hit a home run"), and is starting a long-toss program (yesterday was the first day) and a Texas-Baseball-Ranch-inspired pitching development program this summer. So I'll start tracking this and will post updates. Here's what I know so far, based on radar readings and the first day of long toss:

 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

May 21, 2015 (age 14 yrs, 4 mo.): 240' long toss

 

On the 30th I'll get a radar reading at the pitching facility, and once his pitching program starts he'll have them 3x per week.

 

Maybe he's getting a late start. I buy the whole "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it philosophy," but I wanted him to want to go after it. So the regular measurement is starting now. I'll have more info this summer.

 

My 2022 (11.5YO) doesn't like his CU bc he doesn't think there's enough difference bw it and this FB. I reluctantly dragged the Jugs out yesterday to see just what the numbers show. He's right. His circle CU sits at 50-52 and his FB sits at 54-55 and tops out at 59. I guess he needs to work a little more to get his FB to ride closer to his max. Unfortunately, he's pretty accurate at 54-55 but his location suffers above that number.

 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph

You raise some very valid points.

But at 11.5?  

Wow.  This one got resurrected I see.  I don't necessarily think at 11 and a half there is a magic mph number you 'must' be at.  But I do think youth baseball makes the huge mistake of trying to teach control first.  Control can be had at a young age with poor mechanics.  To p velocity can not be had at any age with poor mechanics.  Keep in mind before responding that there are of course a few freaks of nature, let's keep this the the vast majority.  Also some of what we call poor mechanics in mlb is nit picking at that point.  Pretty much all those guys have good mechanics.  So I would say it is never too early to teach your kid to develop powerful mechanics and throw hard.  You want to measure that via radar I am fine with that also.  But never ever sacrifice velocity for control.

       
       
On a nice track there 2019.  Always feel like if you can get to your freshman year anywhere around 80 your chances are  good.

Exactly right. In addition, I believe correct mechanics, in addition to maximizing velocity, are part of a long-term arm health plan. My own son was practically unusable for almost two years as a pitcher due to control issues at a young age. People wondered why I didn't just have him slow up the velocity and find the strike zone. Many of them are finding out now. I see too many big guys in high school who should be throwing harder. I kow quite a few and also know that their velocity was harnessed at a young age and traded for "putting the ball over the plate."

Looking good. The radar gun is a tool like any other. It measures something. IN this case progress. This is very nice progress. There are lots of places where a freshman throwing 75 with decent stuff and good movement is a starting varsity pitcher.

       
       
And by the way root my son is stuck in this right now.  He often gets put in big games.  Win or go home games where we are up one or down one and he knows a few walks would be devastating for his team (13u).  So he cruises like he is throwing a bullpen at maybe 65 or 66 instead of really letting it fly.  He gets the desired result and this confirms for him he is doing the right thing. His out pitch becomes his curve ball and two seemer which gets a little drop and produces ground balls.  Then I say to him when are you just going to let it fly?  Pre season he had been about 70 and I thought pretty good control.  Figured great by seasons end maybe 72 or 73 setting him up for upper 70's his 14u season and 80 something as a freshman.  But you can't just turn it on and off like a light switch.  He rarely tries to reach back and blow somebody away with a good four seemer   ground balls and quick innings are a premium when you may be asked to pitch parts of three different games in a weekend but still...  just got to keep plugging I guess.  And I understand sometimes its really hard for a kid to separate what is best for his team vs. What is best for his future.

There comes a time (and you're kid is right about that age) where they learn to sling it at a cruising speed 3-4mph below what they can actually throw with the same solid mechanics.

       
       
You may have a good point there.  If you stay within the mechanics that WILL allow you to throw hard but take some off for better control and to let your two seemer work maybe its not all bad.  I just hope when the day comes and he needs it he knows how to channel those extra mph.

Thanks roothog, much appreciated. The high school that 2019Son will be attending is in the highest classification (Division 1) and the largest region (Southern Section) in California, and in one of the most competitive leagues, so there is no thought of varsity next year. 2019Son is aiming for JV, and hopefully he continues to make progress -- and puts on a little weight! (130-something pounds is not going to cut it! )

 

The pitching facility that he went to for the first time had the following chart on the wall for max velocity and max throwing distance, which I thought was interesting. It isn't so much "you will follow this path" but rather "given your goals, how do you stand right now? And do you need to pick up the pace?"

 

 

Sorry, the inserted photo got inserted twice . . . I must have screwed something up.

Same thing happened to 2019Son in Little League. His coach when he was about 10 tried to get him to throw slower ("just get it over the plate") and I had to gently -- didn't want him to not respect the coach -- urge 2019Son to continue throwing as hard as he could. And if he is unusable at age 10 because of control, oh well . . .

       
       
It's crazy how two similar players can have such different experiences based on where they live. My rising freshman who's at the same velocity as yours will be going to the smallest classification school in a bad district for baseball. His high school coach is drooling over him. Already asked me if I think he can handle the pressure of being the top pitcher as a freshman. Move your kid here and our team will be loaded hahaha. 

I also found that chart interesting my son was on the bottom at 12, next level up at 13, and second level down at 14. Hope that trend continues to the top level at 15 lol.

 

       
       
Its amazing how closely my son's progress matches yours!  We will see what next year brings but upper 70's is kind of our goal.  Going to be working very hard with a cressey type workout all off season.  Key is to enter freshman year over 80.

80 entering freshman year is fantastic. 2019Son has two teammates there -- one has hit 81, the other 80 -- and he knows another rising freshman (going to a rival school) who has hit 85 (on a gun at pitching facility -- not "daddy radar"!) There aren't that many of them, though. 80 at 14U is pretty rare.

 

I think your son's emphasis on building strength will pay off. 2019Son is just starting to do that -- not with weights yet -- and I think that will help. Hey, he just reached 140 lbs, so, like I said, we've agreed to keep feeding him!

       
       
I personally gunned a kid 13u true 7th grader at 79.  I am sure somewhere this season he hit 80.  Now that's amazing.

 

These kids are not even in HS yet, nowhere need puberty.  

That's the difference maker.

Eric Cressy like workouts not even in HS yet, entering freshman year 80? Sorry but I cant even wrap my head around half the stuff posted here.

Your kids are going to reach a plateau, you would most likely want it later than sooner, but that is just my opinion from my experience.

 

I do understand what you're saying, but, a couple of very close observations I've made over the years. First, 13 is not, as you say, "no where near puberty." For most kids, by 13, they are well into puberty. Second, it would be highly unusual for a 13yo throwing 80 at 13/14 to have plateaeud. A review of most kids throwing 90 or so by their senior year, shows (when the information is available) that they were generally throwing high seventies to eighty by the time they were freshmen. Having said that, my own barely-fifteen-year-old doesn't work with weights at all and I am considering keeping it that way, though it's still an open topic. Entering freshman year throwing 80. Somewhat unusual, but not at all unheard of. In the state of Colorado alone, I can name six or seven kids that entered as freshmen throwing 80. Three of which were my students. I would also say that I can count on one hand the number of pitchers I've ever seen go from 72 or less at 14 to 85+ by the end of their high school years. Most hard throwers at 18 were hard throwers at 12/13 and that even includes the little guys that grew late.

I wish I had charted my velocity through the years, and it wasnt common to I have a gun on me until my Jr year of HS (we didnt have quite the number of showcases and resources available now), but going off approximate memory of what I topped out at when a gun was present during a game. I was very young for my class and technically was a class ahead of where I should have been, so the age may be more important than year in school :

 

11: 55 mph (probably cruised 52-53)

12: 60 mph (cruised 57-58)

13: 70 mph (cruised 67-68)

14: 75 mph (HS freshman) (cruised low 70s)

15: 80 (cruised around 78-79)

16: (HS Junior) 84, cruised 80-83

17: (HS Senior) 86, cruised 83-84. Hurt my arm 4 weeks into the season and did not pitch the rest of my high school career. I am guessing all things going well, would have topped off at 87 or 88, as I was just starting to get strong that season.

18: (College freshman): 86, cruised 83-85

19: (Soph) 88, cruised 85-86

20: (Junior) 90 (may have touched 91 or 92, but played in front of a LOT less scouts and our coach didn't believe in having us clocked).

 

My labrum went bye bye early April of junior year. I probably only gained 4 miles per hour between my high school senior year and college junior years. While some may attribute that to reaching a plateau, I think there would have been much more in the tank had I been healthy. After hurting my arm my senior year, got an MRI and my rotator cuff was severely inflamed. Being naive and not thinking long term, got a cortisone shot, got some celebrex, and went on my merry way to college. Never found out what the root of the issue was, and spent a lot of college pitching through pain or a dead arm. The ice, visits to the trainer and band work kept it manageable, and I never really divulged how bad it was unless it was unbearable, and then id just blame it on a "dead arm" spell.

There was a significant amount of local talent concentrated in a 2-3 year age range when I was a kid where I lived. I don't think I ever saw a 12 year old throw 80, but at 13, I played with/against several in Pony league. Tom Wilhelmsen (Mariners) could do it fairly consistently. One of our teammates could as well (he quit ball as a HS frosh, probably throwing 84-85 when he did). My first best friend could, he was 90-94 his senior year and out of nowhere completely lost command of his fastball (ala Mark Wohlers) and fizzled out after one year at a D1 school in California. The hardest 12 year old I saw in person was probably 76-78. The legend on him was he could throw 80 at 12, but I never saw it. I did see him pitch in Pony All Stars as a 13 year old and I was sitting behind the gun getting him at 80 and 81 more than just once or twice. He didn't gain much more, he was still a really good pitcher in high school but was probably 87-89 and ended up being a JUCO shortstop.

 

I remember Ryan Schroyer (ASU, Red Sox AAA, HS teammate of Scott Hairston, Ian Kinsler, Chris & Shelley Duncan, Brian Anderson) throwing harder than all the guys I mentioned when he was 13, so I'd include him as well.

 

There were several others that were probably close to 80 at 13 but just a little shy (JJ Hardy, Brian Anderson (white sox), Jesus Cota (dbacks organization), Will Smith (Marlins/Texas) and a few others.