CoachCav. Interesting, you have not seen any MLB guys doing these workouts. I have pondered these programs for my son, but was always worried about those stressors on a growing body. If fully grown MLB guys don't do it, then that says a lot. Can't agree with you more on the kinetic chain stuff. There are so many kids that don't train where they need to train.
Is it possible there aren't active MLB players engaging in activities to increase velocity through weighted balls due to the likelihood that they have achieved a certain level of velocity already. My guess is that for most, refined location, mechanics, and secondary offerings would be the focus at that level. I don't find the lack of weighted balls in the MLB to be particularly surprising or telling of their value in the development of velocity.
Possibly- but I think there are far to many big leaguers for that to be the case- you don't see much of it at the minor league level either- so this leads me to believe the risk of injury is to high. Something interesting I have noticed in the big leagues is that a lot of items/ programs you see on the "street" don't penetrate the gates to often.
well the MLB guys kyle Trains probably do use weighted balls. just because MLB Players do it it doesn't have to be best practice, there are also MLB pitchers who still run poles or Show up fat and untrained in spring Training.
the Training in MLB has probably improved in the last 15 years and there are now more Clubs applying sports science but there are probably still Clubs who do it because "if it was good enough for nolan ryan it is good enough for you" (basically we do it because we always did it).
I have myself asked questions if weighted balls are really having an effect or whether it is just the better conditioning that any decent program brings (causing kyles sensitive ego to explode
) but just because some or even many MLB Players don't do it this does not disprove that those methods are good. kyle has improved the velocity of many pitchers into the 90 and he wouldn't do it if he would not believe in it (but he also does tons of Training for the decelerators too so I would not just throw the heavy balls - although the load on the decelerators is actually lower with heavier balls because the arm Speed is lower and the decelerators don't kick in until the ball has been released).
Dom- can you pass along those EMG studies you are speaking of when referencing deceleration when you can. Thanks.
"Something interesting I have noticed in the big leagues is that a lot of items/ programs you see on the "street" don't penetrate the gates to often."
Yeah but that's an MLB culture thing, and it's not at all dispositive of whether or not the programs work.
Can't really but I think I read on Kyles site that the forces are actually lower. Probably Kyle could provide it.
"On a sidenote in 12 years working with MLB players I've never seen a player engage in a weighted ball program."
At last count we have 56 pros training using our stuff, 10 of whom have innings in the big leagues. And the entire Cleveland Indians pitching staff uses them at Goodyear and on the road. Pretty impressed you could miss that many pitchers given how huge your clientele must be.
Also the former team you were the Head S&C coach for has players using them. Mariano Rivera used them while you were there, and multiple people on the big league staff currently use them while many more in AAA (and down) use them there.
So I find it pretty hard to believe you hadn't run into anyone there. But I guess I could be wrong.
As for the EMG data, it's sources from Somaxis/Noraxon/Athos EMG sensors we have in house. If I thought it would change one person's mind, I might open source it. But as I've talked on this subject for years and given away tons of data, I see that no doubter is actually interested in truth, only confirmation bias. So everyone can do things their way, I'll do things my way, and results will be what they are. At this point in my career with the success my guys have had and business increase we have, I don't care to debate or try to convince anyone.
I think Eric Cressey has endorsed weighted balls to some extent.
CoachJackE posted:
This one is Tom House's program. It is a bit different than Boddy's, as it has the element of "holding" in it. That is, players don't throw some balls - they will hold on to them in order to work decelerator muscles. This is important, but holds are not the only way to work the decelerator muscles, nor are they probably the best way.
I would like to see some video trials done by individuals using various tools and programs - showing whether or not they work for them. Jaeger Long toss House's weighted ball program Driveline's version of weighted ball program Crossover symmetry Wheeler's core velocity belt etc these would have to be done with good scientific regimen, rigor and care
Our instructor has a Somax hip trainer. They (the makers) have a video purporting to show a young man gaining 10 mph on his fastball after twelve minutes of work on the device. I would love to try to replicate their work with my son and post the results to video. Sort of a myth busters type thing.
Boy. My whole post is confusing and hard to understand. Sorry.
Actually Mariano did not use them- outside of doing basic arm circles by holding a weighted ball prior to throwing- that was it. And- for the record- you are missing the point- I am not saying you can not improve velocity with these programs- you can. For me- the problem I have seen with developing power through the arm (especially in young players)- while not focusing on force/ power development through the ground leads to issues when we have players ( a majority) lacking shoulder rotation either internally or externally or both for a lack of total motion. With that said, combined with an upper cross syndrome- this becomes a problem. Increased velocity in general becomes a problem. I am not here to interfere with your business- just to point out the possible effects of increased velocity when combined with sub-par posture (upper cross), decreased shoulder ROM, and the inability to create force through the ground. I spend most of my time helping players stay healthy and stay on the field. Until you have to speak to a 15 year old player who feels he may never be able to play again because he has arm pain that is making him question his career- you focus more on health and core development principles of performance and rehab to get that kid back on the field- velocity is always second.
CoachCavaleaML posted:Actually Mariano did not use them- outside of doing basic arm circles by holding a weighted ball prior to throwing- that was it. And- for the record- you are missing the point- I am not saying you can not improve velocity with these programs- you can. For me- the problem I have seen with developing power through the arm (especially in young players)- while not focusing on force/ power development through the ground leads to issues when we have players ( a majority) lacking shoulder rotation either internally or externally or both for a lack of total motion. With that said, combined with an upper cross syndrome- this becomes a problem. Increased velocity in general becomes a problem. I am not here to interfere with your business- just to point out the possible effects of increased velocity when combined with sub-par posture (upper cross), decreased shoulder ROM, and the inability to create force through the ground. I spend most of my time helping players stay healthy and stay on the field. Until you have to speak to a 15 year old player who feels he may never be able to play again because he has arm pain that is making him question his career- you focus more on health and core development principles of performance and rehab to get that kid back on the field- velocity is always second.
+1
To me, the throwing motion in and of itself is not a natural thing. Just to slowly go through an overhand delivery, you can feel the stress on different muscles, so to add weight to increase that stress just seems like you are buying trouble. My son has trained with a philosophy of core strength, balance, and proper mechanics, as well as rest in the offseason since he first started throwing. We have at least 6 weeks in the early winter where he doesn't pick up a ball. We have NEVER had sore arms, never iced and he sure seems refreshed when he picks up the ball after the shutdown time. He may be only 14 and the velo could use a boost, but I'd rather he learn the proper mechanics, be able to locate and understand the mental aspects in pitching enough to find his way onto a college program, then when his body has matured think about things to gain velocity. But for young kids (high school and younger) in particular I can't understand how throwing a weighted ball can possibly be smart in the long run
Aren't the holds basically an imitation of marshalls wrist weight program? Or does the holding have an additional benefit? But anyway the holes are definitely different from a weighted balls program because the weighted balls are not more than +/- 2 ounces.
probably makes more sense than throwing or holding 2 pounds plus balls.
Dominik85 posted:Aren't the holds basically an imitation of marshalls wrist weight program? Or does the holding have an additional benefit? But anyway the holes are definitely different from a weighted balls program because the weighted balls are not more than +/- 2 ounces.
probably makes more sense than throwing or holding 2 pounds plus balls.
Whether people admit it or not, yes, the holds are taken from Mike Marshall. And I think there is no doubt that training the decelerator muscles is vital. How do you get there? Weighted ball holds? Wrist weights? Crossover Symmetry? Drive lines program does include band work as well as reverse throws. These things help with decel. muscles. Interestingly, though, Kyles program also includes a Juager (sp.) long toss element. So, does weighted ball throws or long toss do the benefit? Lol.
CoachCavaleaML posted:For me- the problem I have seen with developing power through the arm (especially in young players)- while not focusing on force/ power development through the ground leads to issues
Yikes. First off, increasing power development thru the ground correlates strongly to increasing velo. Second, it takes mere moments checking out Kyle's Twitter or Instagram feed to see that his guys hit the rack pretty hard to develop the ability to project force thru the ground.
As long as everybody is namedropping MLB, Raul Ibanez popped into Driveline day before yesterday. Upon entering the place he uttered "First thing I noticed is everyone in here is jacked."
Raul tweeting after he left: "Thanks for letting me come hang out. Great environment and energy! Some big dudes in there!"
Yes, Kyle emphasizes developing the ability to project force into the ground.
??
Never a dull moment or lack of opinion when talking about weighted ball programs.
CoachJackE posted:
The primary focus of the Tom House/Jamie Evans Velo program is shoulder health. The byproduct of that is gains in velo. Many of our EvoShield Canes use the program and see tremendous gains. Jamie Evans is a throwing consultant with the Blue Jays. Many/Most of their guys use the program for maintenance as well as rehabbing from a start.
At this point, I'm going with Occam's Razor on weighted balls.
Go44dad posted:At this point, I'm going with Occam's Razor on weighted balls.
Personally, I'm going with the Razor-A-Week club. Good consistent close shave for about a buck a week.
couple years ago kyle wrote a Piece about the holds.
https://www.drivelinebaseball....that-come-with-them/
seems like he is not really a fan, not sure about now. I can see the issue he describes, if you hold a 2 Pound ball (compared to throwing a slightly overweight ball) it can lead to cutting off the Action and pushing.
Kyle still doesn't use holds with his weighted ball program.
I get the thing that a kid or under developed player trying to develop velocity strictly by developing the arm can cause issues. Im not aware of any responsible program that advocates this.
The idea that injury prevention is going to totally prevent injury is fantasy, particularly when guys are throwing hard. The injury risk is much higher at 93 mph than at 80 mph in most cases....captain obvious I know, but, an 18 year old amateur who throws 80 mph is a vastly different animal than a 26 year old pro throwing 94.
I get what Coachcavaleaml is saying about having to work with an injured 15 year old player. But for most kids they are not going to play after high school anyway if they don't find a way to develop their ability level.
There are reasons a lot of things (training wise) don't penetrate the pro game....like others have said it is partly a culture thing and the player already possess an elite set of skills. They are not the guys who need big improvements to keep playing.
My almost 17 YO son is a primary catcher. He's working with a very respected former MLB trainer and started weighted ball training for the winter, which is a 10-week program so he can increase his positional velocity and decrease his pop-times to below 2.0 (getting there). Of course, these are critical for a 2017 catcher to get recruited. His program uses holds and a variety of weighted balls. I'm no expert, but that's my contribution to this discussion.
i think that a big reason coach Cavalea is against it is that a lot of the programs hes seen seem like they arent good ones. If all a program does is throw weighted baseballs as hard as possible, yeah theres a good chance of injury. I think a lot of people see Kyle's stuff and assume all they do is chuck weighted baseballs super hard. They also do a VERY thorough warmup, plyocare work to optimize mechanics, recovery protocol after throwing every day, and lots of weight lifting. It certainly is more than just weighted balls. If any of you own HTKC, you'll know in the sample programs that the first month you dont touch a weighed baseball. Not sure, but it seems like a big part of Dana's reason for not liking them is that the programs hes seen haven't been good ones.
As an aside, I've seen Aroldis Chapman throw a heavy baseball.
Pitching student posted:i think that a big reason coach Cavalea is against it is that a lot of the programs hes seen seem like they arent good ones. If all a program does is throw weighted baseballs as hard as possible, yeah theres a good chance of injury. I think a lot of people see Kyle's stuff and assume all they do is chuck weighted baseballs super hard. They also do a VERY thorough warmup, plyocare work to optimize mechanics, recovery protocol after throwing every day, and lots of weight lifting. It certainly is more than just weighted balls. If any of you own HTKC, you'll know in the sample programs that the first month you dont touch a weighed baseball. Not sure, but it seems like a big part of Dana's reason for not liking them is that the programs hes seen haven't been good ones.
As an aside, I've seen Aroldis Chapman throw a heavy baseball.
Agree 100%.
Been to Driveline in Seattle and it is impressive what they do there.
Late to the party....been a while.....took a while to get used to the new page format (strange!).
Anyway, lots of good info. in this thread, much of which is always going to be viewed very subjectively. Kyle (without a doubt) vets his "stuff" as much as anyone I know....and I have been around a while, and been able to hang around most of the guys mentioned in this thread, and many others. While most will look towards anecdotal evidence to support their programs, Kyle will utilize certified lab results to prove / or disprove what he is looking for.
As for holds, Kyle does them as well...in fact he recommends wrist weights as part of his weighted ball program, with similar arm exercises as Marshal....I think the House holds are "ok"...but much better ways to work the decelerator muscles.
Main reason to get into this thread this late, is that what I think folks are missing when it comes to the weighted ball programs, is that "all are not created equal", throwing weighted baseballs are only a part of a throwing program, and I don't believe being able to utilize force produced through the ground, staying healthy, AND throwing weighted baseballs are "exclusive" of each other...in fact they work quite well together if done properly....IF part of an "entire" comprehensive throwing program. Lastly, as with any throwing program, especially if designed to increase velo, the recovery / arm care portion is likely the most important aspect, and often overlooked, or ommitted. We spend 2X as much time on recovery & arm care as we do on the actual velocity work, and the honest truth is MOST athletes (and their parents) cannot or will not commit that amount of time, resources, and / or have the desire to do it all....this is where one - without the other IMO is not worth it, or the risk of injury vs. benefit is too great.
The muscles that are involved with acceleration and the muscles that handle the deceleration of the arm are different and complementary sets.
The purpose of weighted ball training is to strengthen the deceleration muscles. This is a sound approach to arm health, as many arm breakdowns are actually incurred from lack of deceleration conditioning.
When a player is building velocity -- whether just through improving mechanics or by growth in size or strength -- keeping pace with decel conditioning is a very good idea. I have no objection to weighted balls for this purpose, though I prefer using elastic bands of the sort favored by LPT's.
But don't confuse this with any thought that the weighted ball contributes to the velocity gain. It doesn't. Actually, the arm moves slower when carrying greater weight, so in this workout you would actually be working on throwing slower. Especially when you consider that true velocity gain requires that the arm stroke be completely in synch with hip and trunk rotation and whip crack. If you slow the arm down, you'd have to slow every other phase of the delivery down too, just to say in synch. Then you'd have to ramp it up again later.
That's too complicated and it doesn't work. Which is why weighted balls should be used, if used at all, only for their intended purpose, which again is to train the decel muscles so as to protect the arm from added velocity, and not to add velocity in and of itself.
Midlo - the weighted ball program contains two phases (and both work to increase velo):
Overload Phase / heavier than 5 oz. balls (heavier/slower - which does work decel muscles, but also can clean up arm action deficiencies (which would increase velo), works on intent to throw hard, and adds strength (which can all increase velo).
Underload Phase / lighter than 5 oz. balls - which helps develop arm speed (velo)
Both phases have aspects that can / or will affect (increase) velocity....it is not just a decelerator muscle drill.
Agreed. Under and overload training is well researched to be beneficial. So, velocity should increase from the throwing. But, the decelerator aspects are valuable too. Double the money. Boddy's program is heavy on decel. stuff. House's too, but in a different, perhaps less beneficial manner.
Midlo,
I don't proclaim to know this stuff other than what I hear & read but, what you said differs greatly from what Jamie Evans tells me. I agree that the primary goal of his program is to train/strengthen the decelerators. However, the byproduct of strengthening those muscles is that velocity increases.
Midlo Dad posted:The muscles that are involved with acceleration and the muscles that handle the deceleration of the arm are different and complementary sets.
The purpose of weighted ball training is to strengthen the deceleration muscles. This is a sound approach to arm health, as many arm breakdowns are actually incurred from lack of deceleration conditioning.
When a player is building velocity -- whether just through improving mechanics or by growth in size or strength -- keeping pace with decel conditioning is a very good idea. I have no objection to weighted balls for this purpose, though I prefer using elastic bands of the sort favored by LPT's.
But don't confuse this with any thought that the weighted ball contributes to the velocity gain. It doesn't. Actually, the arm moves slower when carrying greater weight, so in this workout you would actually be working on throwing slower. Especially when you consider that true velocity gain requires that the arm stroke be completely in synch with hip and trunk rotation and whip crack. If you slow the arm down, you'd have to slow every other phase of the delivery down too, just to say in synch. Then you'd have to ramp it up again later.
That's too complicated and it doesn't work. Which is why weighted balls should be used, if used at all, only for their intended purpose, which again is to train the decel muscles so as to protect the arm from added velocity, and not to add velocity in and of itself.
Actually, I believe that the weighted ball work does directly contribute to velocity gain. There are 10 muscles that cross the ucl and provide support. The ucl itself can only handle a predetermined load without the support of these muscles. The body has natural reactions that, to put it simply, stop the elbow from allowing more force than it can handle. Those muscles, especially the forearm pronator-flexor muscles, can provide a lot of support. The stronger those muscles, the more force the ucl can withstand and the faster the arm can move. Unfortunately, working these muscles is difficult. The most effective work on them comes from throwing. However, when you only throw a 5oz. ball you quickly reach a threshold. Think of it like you were doing curls to build your bicep. If you were a weakling and started curling 15 lb dumbbells, you would, indeed build up the bicep. However, you would soon reach a plateau in strength. To overcome this, you would simply add weight - that's a simple enough concept. Same with the muscles around the elbow. Adding weight increases the threshold level and builds muscle mass. This alone, though can only build the supporting muscles. the problem you have with increasing velocity is that you've basically also built muscle memory that only allows so much movement of the arm. To take advantage of this added support, you now need to "trick" your arm. By using underweight balls, you get the arm moving faster, opening up the restrictions you've placed on the arm. The arm, now used to moving faster allows itself to continue that increased movement even with heavier balls. This is why using underweight balls before building muscle with over weight balls could be dangerous. It's an added benefit that some of these same muscles are heavily involved in deceleration.
I know that people say that weighted balls help with velo. I just don't think it's true. It's a theory that is not backed up by any evidence that I can see. And the fact that it's to the point of religious fervor with some people does not, in my mind, count as actual evidence.
In my years of observation, I have never seen anyone experience a velo jump coinciding with beginning weighted ball training. I have also not seen anyone whose velo increased over time to a further extent than same-aged peers who were not in weighted ball training. And the guys I've seen who have developed into the hardest throwers did not use weighted balls at all.
On the flip side, I have witnessed players who began weighted ball training in season and then experienced DECLINES in velocity. In fact, we had a player go through that just this past fall, and it became a topic of discussion. I continue to believe that this is because weighted ball training teaches the arm to move slower. Whether that's the root cause of what I have observed can be debated, but whether my supposition as to causal link is right or wrong, my observations as to what happens are still the same.
Any strength training intended to build velocity is likely to fail, too, if the player (or instructor) has a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes top velocity happen. The very most important thing is that the delivery be loose and whippy, and that the delivery be coordinated from foot to fingertips so as to fire in sequence and thereby add speed at each juncture. (That's what I mean by likening throwing to cracking a whip.) Adding strength obviously is a help, but it has to be strength of the sort that adds to this process. Adding bulk behind a pushing or straining delivery won't help and could well be counterproductive.
For those who prefer weighted ball training, I recommend using it only out of season. Even then I prefer elastic bands instead. In season use of the bands, to my observation, has helped with rotator cuff fitness and forearm fitness without the velo loss that I've seen in weighted ball adherents.
Midlo Dad posted:I know that people say that weighted balls help with velo. I just don't think it's true. It's a theory that is not backed up by any evidence that I can see. And the fact that it's to the point of religious fervor with some people does not, in my mind, count as actual evidence.
In my years of observation, I have never seen anyone experience a velo jump coinciding with beginning weighted ball training. I have also not seen anyone whose velo increased over time to a further extent than same-aged peers who were not in weighted ball training. And the guys I've seen who have developed into the hardest throwers did not use weighted balls at all.
On the flip side, I have witnessed players who began weighted ball training in season and then experienced DECLINES in velocity. In fact, we had a player go through that just this past fall, and it became a topic of discussion. I continue to believe that this is because weighted ball training teaches the arm to move slower. Whether that's the root cause of what I have observed can be debated, but whether my supposition as to causal link is right or wrong, my observations as to what happens are still the same.
Any strength training intended to build velocity is likely to fail, too, if the player (or instructor) has a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes top velocity happen. The very most important thing is that the delivery be loose and whippy, and that the delivery be coordinated from foot to fingertips so as to fire in sequence and thereby add speed at each juncture. (That's what I mean by likening throwing to cracking a whip.) Adding strength obviously is a help, but it has to be strength of the sort that adds to this process. Adding bulk behind a pushing or straining delivery won't help and could well be counterproductive.
For those who prefer weighted ball training, I recommend using it only out of season. Even then I prefer elastic bands instead. In season use of the bands, to my observation, has helped with rotator cuff fitness and forearm fitness without the velo loss that I've seen in weighted ball adherents.
You may be the first person I've heard claim to have noticed velocity drops after a weighted ball program. My own personal experience has been a few who didn't show any velocity gains but also weren't consistently in the program and the vast majority showing a minimum of 2-3 mph. My pitchers also don't throw long toss and the program is time-contained to no more than 11 weeks, so I don't think normal velocity gains can be attributed.
Ah those bands.
You can warm up, activate, and fatigue decel musculature using bands. But nobody other than a complete novice to resistance band exercise will ever impose enough stress with them to cause the adaptations that correlate with increased strength (and how strength is expressed). The point above about not all weighted ball programs being the same is absolutely the most important point in the thread.
Midlo Dad, the Driveline program referenced in this thread addresses just about every argument you've made. The science is there (that means real data, analysis, and interp) and all of Kyle Boddy's writing on the subject is available free to anyone willing to spend the time running through it.
CoachCavaleaML posted:The problem with these weighted ball programs is that they teach you how to generate velocity through the arm. Proper velocity should be generated between the relationship of the foot in the ground where power is truly generated. The problem is most athletes don't know how to generate power to the ground so the Arm takes a greater beating then it should. Combined this with forward rounded shoulders, minimized external rotation, minimize internal rotation, and inconsistent arm program and the result is a blowout. There's no doubt you can increase velocity on one of these programs, But at what cost. This would be like putting a Ferrari engine inside of a Volkswagen beetle and not calibrating the braking system to match the increased power and velocity. So the question is at what cost will you develop increased velocity. On a sidenote in 12 years working with MLB players I've never seen a player engage in a weighted ball program. Take that for what it's worth. Start increasing total body power and freedom of motion and you will develop velocity the right way if you're meant to have it. Coach Dana
@mlstrength.com
I think what you're missing, coach, is that weighted ball programs definitely do not teach velocity generation through the arm. The point is to build the supporting muscle groups so that the elbow can handle heavier loads, The amount of load the ucl can handle is defined. You can't do anything about that. Any additional velocity must be supported by muscle strength. These muscles do not, in actuality, propel the ball, they simply allow the elbow to handle the forces involved with faster acceleration. Velocity is still driven largely by the kinetic chain involving the lower body extensively. If your lower body mechanics are rotten, you simply are unlikely to be able to take advantage of what a weighted ball program gives you.