@TPM posted:I spoke what's on my mind. Just like everyone else does.
No one needs to respond if they don't like what I posted.
I like the main point of what you said. It was powerful. The rest wasn't needed and that is my opinion and I spoke my mind just like everyone else and non one needs to respond if they don't like what I posted. I would prefer to talk music (van fleet), baseball and beer on the 4th of July weekend over partisan politics which will just get worse over the coming months.
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:I like the main point of what you said. It was powerful. The rest wasn't needed and that is my opinion and I spoke my mind just like everyone else and non one needs to respond if they don't like what I posted. I would prefer to talk music (van fleet), baseball and beer on the 4th of July weekend over partisan politics which will just get worse over the coming months.
I agree, much rather be talking about baseball, sports, and I usually don't respond, and you are right its going to get worse.
Thanks.
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:... I would prefer to talk music (van fleet), baseball and beer on the 4th of July weekend ...
Well, at least two out of three will be happening !!
Happy 4th, All !!
I almost posted several instances of voter fraud in vote by mail just in this primary season. But in this era of politics it’s difficult to change people’s mind even with facts and truth. So why bother?
The US already has a viable vote by mail. It’s called “absentee ballot.” You prove who you are and receive a ballot.
Well, speaking of music I just learned about Sturgill Simpson, who, I've been told by my kids EVERYONE already knows about. But if you don't know about him please watch the whole thing below, if you're so inclined.
@RJM posted:I almost posted several instances of voter fraud in vote by mail just in this primary season. But in this era of politics it’s difficult to change people’s mind even with facts and truth. So why bother?
The US already has a viable vote by mail. It’s called “absentee ballot.” You prove who you are and receive a ballot.
Yes, Absentee ballot would be better than mass mailing ballots. (IMHO). I suppose they could mail the ballots based on the voter registration rolls, but there are inherent issues with that since many times the registration rolls are not entirely accurate - some of those who have moved or died may not have been removed from the rolls and there would be no way to accurately confirm the ballot received was actually completed by the registered voter. That's where the potential for fraud would come into play.
That said, my daughter and I voted in the most recent primary (Virginia) and never had to get out of the vehicle. Rolled up where they asked for some sort of ID (driver's license, state issued ID, Passport or voter registration card would do). Then your name was relayed via two way radio to the person in charge of the voter list and then you told them which primary (R or D). Then drive up to the next tent (R = Republican, Blue = Democrat) where you received the appropriate ballot in a folder. Drive up to the next tent where you handed the attendant your completed ballot in the folder and they would then scan the ballot into the machine. Easy peasy!
@smokeminside posted:Well, speaking of music I just learned about Sturgill Simpson, who, I've been told by my kids EVERYONE already knows about. But if you don't know about him please watch the whole thing below, if you're so inclined.
Never heard of him before....pretty good!
Ever heard of Sophie Lloyd? Very good and easy on the eyes!
I am fortunate/blessed that I am now in a position to go to my kid's baseball game, celebrate a national holiday with family without the spectre of work. I spent several months witnessing the horrors of the rapidity of this disease and at the same time amazed at our rapid response with innovation from making new ICUs in hospital cafes, rapdily developing and implementing novel assays to detect the virus and immune responses that lead to successfully treating sick with convalescent plasma. We also identified/repurposed inflammatory response countermeasures. Sadly there were a lot of bumps on the road some even got politicized and was some what unfair imo (patients released to assisted living facilities or ALFs). I can't speak for all HC facilities, but cleared patients were virus negative before returned to their ALFs. Keep in mind in my region ALFs are not in abundance so there were logistical issues of placing the recovered who still needed geriatric care but we needed the bed space. It was before we had converted convention centers and bought the big ship. I see there is a lot of debate on this board, and imo is a healthy outlet considering the turbulent times we are ALL in. I hope this holiday and it's message does not get lost with this discourse
@LuckyCat posted:So, care to opine on the science-based recommendations of Dr. Del Rio and Dr. Lewin at Emory?
I really don't, because it isn't science-based, as seems to be the basis of your premise. But I did take the time to read it and will offer your this:
When individuals report things or say things like "we're following the science" or "science-based", it is an immediate tell. It means they don't know the correct terminology and likely have no idea what they are professing. I'm not talking about Dr's Del Rio or Lewin, I'm talking about the reporters and politicians that use that language. In medicine we use the term "evidence-based".
As far as personally wearing masks, I generally do not. The exceptions are at work when I am in close contact with patients and at other places where it is required. If it was law to wear in public, I would comply but disagree with it. If I am recalling correctly, the two infectious disease physicians at Emory pointed out, as I have, that rural areas in our country, such as most of GA, as opposed to metro ATL, don't really have the same level of risk. Subsequently uniform rules regarding mask precautions for all areas aren't practical.
Furthermore, when I wear a mask, I do so correctly, and wash /sterilize my hands after every time I touch the mask.
Now, let me finish by sharing this abstract from this evidence-based peer reviewed publication from one month ago, as opposed to dribble you called science from the AJC.
The abstract below is discussing the significance and level of mask required for health care workers treating patients with known C-19 - using N95 vs standard surgical mask. The important line in the abstract with respect to wearing masks is as follows:
"The distinction regarding the escalation of mask complexity depending on contact type is nevertheless based on plausible theoretical assumptions rather than hard evidence of a clear benefit."
Assumptions, not evidence.
Do you remember when people assumed (and politicians and media professed) that we were "safer-at-home"? The Gov of NY came on TV and repeated these assumptions of Birks, Fauci, Trump and his task force. Do you remember him saying he was just "following the science" and if you do this you will be safe? Then, less than two months later he came on to say as it turns out that plan was wrong. And, he (Cuomo) was "shocked" to learn the people getting the sickest in NYC were the ones staying home. Hmmm?
Assumptions are not science and not evidence and may have unintended consequences.
All fine. But, two points:
- in a novel pandemic, there may not be solid evidence for a while. Should we do absolutely nothing until the evidence is in?
- I can't see what the "unintended consequences" of having everyone wear masks is. It MAY do good, how can it do harm?
I think the rub is the constant reminders that everyone not wearing masks are idiots who don't follow science. I honestly don’t know that this is science based either but my doctor told me she thought we were ruining our immune systems with constant mask wearing and cloroxing every surface.
Your "evidence-based" article, published a month ago and probably hasn't been peer reviewed yet, asks about masks for healthcare workers, not ordinary people in public. Amazing that an orthopedist thinks he knows better on this particular issue than Emory's infectious disease expert.
@baseballhs posted:I think the rub is the constant reminders that everyone not wearing masks are idiots who don't follow science. I honestly don’t know that this is science based either but my doctor told me she thought we were ruining our immune systems with constant mask wearing and cloroxing every surface.
This is evidence that doctors can be pretty dumb, just like the rest of us.
What is your area of expertise?
@baseballhs posted:What is your area of expertise?
I'm going to listen to the infectious disease experts when it comes to whether it is a good idea for me, as an ordinary person just walking around at my grocery store or whatever, to be wearing a mask.
I think any medical doctor suggesting to his patients that they do not need to wear a mask when they are in public, especially when they are either indoors with other people or are in a situation where they cannot easily socially distance, is irresponsible and doing harm.
Based on your expertise? You decide which doctors are dumb. Got it....
@baseballhs posted:Based on your expertise? You decide which doctors are dumb. Got it....
No, I'm not basing my decision on my expertise. I'm basing it on the expertise of Dr. Del Rio, who is in fact a well-respected infectious disease specialist at Emory University Hospital.
"The beautiful part of good science is its self-correcting nature. The ugly part is this self-correcting nature often moves at a glacial pace—and it’s not linear. We often view history century-by-century and see what amounts to continual progress in medicine. But we live our lives—and consume information—day-by-day, exposed to the peaks and valleys of medical wisdom." Peter Attia, MD.
I was doing some research today on an entirely different topic - not Covid related - and saw this quote. It seems appropriate.
We're fortunate that my 2020 was in a PG tournament in GA last week and has another starting Sunday in AL. Masks are mandatory next week.
@baseballhs posted:What is your area of expertise?
Pretty telling that you didn’t get an answer to this question.
The was a time science included bloodletting. Obviously more sophisticated in every aspect of medicine since then. The problem here is when something new arrives on the scene even closely related to other viruses - it is still new and different.
Consequently there is a learning curve. You do not have to go far to find all kind of references in Feb that masks don't help, this is not a big deal etc. Suddenly in March 2 million people were going to die and we know what happened from there.
The basic truth of "science" claims is that it can be two things at the same time: 1) A tool to influence people into compliance because of "experts" 2) A way to determine public policy by defining issues and outcomes
What is NOT science is when people are guessing at outcomes no matter how much they know about anything. Expertise is not required to understand that to slow the spread of a infectious virus that separation and barriers will help. The question becomes how much and what can we afford. What science DOES do is trials to get facts based results. Regardless of how we feel about it - that is exactly what is happening with the reopening. We are trying things at different paces around the country and more information is coming in which then allows for science to evaluate it and revise previous conclusions.
IMO we must press forward with the reopening - the alternative is worse than anything the virus will serve up.
Here’s the.effect what Fauci says and a Democrat Governor repeating like its doom and gloom affects reaction ...
Greater Portland, Maine (five county area) is 650,000. Despite tripling testing positives results are down in the state. There hasn’t been a death in over a week. There were only 105 deaths in a 1,344,000 population state.
In the past week the stores stopped limiting entry to a customer to square footage ratio. The grocery store isn’t offering wipes for the cart handles. The checkout lines aren’t regulated. Same for Home Depot. There’s been outdoor dining for a month. I haven’t worn a mask except where it’s required passing the restaurant hostess station.
A few days ago Fauci said if we’re not careful there could be 100,000 new positive tests per day. The governor doom and gloomed it. She threatened to shut down the state again.
During Fauci’s statement I was at a friend’s summer home on a lake (known in Maine as “upta camp”) helping him with some work. It’s in the boonies in Downeast Maine. All you hear at night are crickets and banjos strumming Deliverance. The year round population of the town is 26.
When we returned to civilization (Bangor, pop 32,000) a couple of days after Fauci’s statement I walked into a Dunkin. After seeing half of people not wearing masks for a week everyone had a mask on. One person snapped at
Here’s the.effect what Fauci says and a Democrat Governor repeating like its doom and gloom affects reaction ...
Greater Portland, Maine (five county area) is 650,000. Despite tripling testing positives results are down in the state. There hasn’t been a death in over a week. There were only 105 deaths in a 1,344,000 population state.
In the past week the stores stopped limiting entry to a customer to square footage ratio. The grocery store isn’t offering wipes for the cart handles. The checkout lines aren’t regulated. Same for Home Depot. There’s been outdoor dining for a month. I haven’t worn a mask except where it’s required passing the restaurant hostess station.
A few days ago Fauci said if we’re not careful there could be 100,000 new positive tests per day. The governor doom and gloomed it. She threatened to shut down the state again.
During Fauci’s statement I was at a friend’s summer home on a lake (known in Maine as “upta camp”) helping him with some work. It’s in the boonies in Downeast Maine. All you hear at night are crickets and banjos strumming Deliverance. The year round population of the town is 26.
When we returned to civilization (Bangor, pop 32,000) a couple of days after Fauci’s statement I walked into a Dunkin. After seeing half of people not wearing masks for a week everyone had a mask on. One person snapped at me, “Didn’t you hear what Fauci and (Governor) Mills said?”
It’s government induced overreaction and panic. Fauci stopped being a sixtieth long ago. He’s an unelected politician. How many years has it been since he’s looked in a microscope?
me, “Didn’t you hear what Fauci and (Governor) Mills said?”
It’s government induced overreaction and panic. Fauci stopped being a sixtieth long ago. He’s an unelected politician. How many years has it been since he’s looked in a microscope?
@baseballhs posted:I think the rub is the constant reminders that everyone not wearing masks are idiots who don't follow science. I honestly don’t know that this is science based either but my doctor told me she thought we were ruining our immune systems with constant mask wearing and cloroxing every surface.
People are more likely to get sick from all kinds of things now. Everyday life is full of disease. We build up immunities dealing with it. Cowering in place for months breaks down people’s immunity systems.
@RJM posted:Here’s the.effect what Fauci says and a Democrat Governor repeating like its doom and gloom affects reaction ...
Greater Portland, Maine (five county area) is 650,000. Despite tripling testing positives results are down in the state. There hasn’t been a death in over a week. There were only 105 deaths in a 1,344,000 population state.
In the past week the stores stopped limiting entry to a customer to square footage ratio. The grocery store isn’t offering wipes for the cart handles. The checkout lines aren’t regulated. Same for Home Depot. There’s been outdoor dining for a month. I haven’t worn a mask except where it’s required passing the restaurant hostess station.
A few days ago Fauci said if we’re not careful there could be 100,000 new positive tests per day. The governor doom and gloomed it. She threatened to shut down the state again.
During Fauci’s statement I was at a friend’s summer home on a lake (known in Maine as “upta camp”) helping him with some work. It’s in the boonies in Downeast Maine. All you hear at night are crickets and banjos strumming Deliverance. The year round population of the town is 26.
When we returned to civilization (Bangor, pop 32,000) a couple of days after Fauci’s statement I walked into a Dunkin. After seeing half of people not wearing masks for a week everyone had a mask on. One person snapped at
Here’s the.effect what Fauci says and a Democrat Governor repeating like its doom and gloom affects reaction ...
Greater Portland, Maine (five county area) is 650,000. Despite tripling testing positives results are down in the state. There hasn’t been a death in over a week. There were only 105 deaths in a 1,344,000 population state.
In the past week the stores stopped limiting entry to a customer to square footage ratio. The grocery store isn’t offering wipes for the cart handles. The checkout lines aren’t regulated. Same for Home Depot. There’s been outdoor dining for a month. I haven’t worn a mask except where it’s required passing the restaurant hostess station.
A few days ago Fauci said if we’re not careful there could be 100,000 new positive tests per day. The governor doom and gloomed it. She threatened to shut down the state again.
During Fauci’s statement I was at a friend’s summer home on a lake (known in Maine as “upta camp”) helping him with some work. It’s in the boonies in Downeast Maine. All you hear at night are crickets and banjos strumming Deliverance. The year round population of the town is 26.
When we returned to civilization (Bangor, pop 32,000) a couple of days after Fauci’s statement I walked into a Dunkin. After seeing half of people not wearing masks for a week everyone had a mask on. One person snapped at me, “Didn’t you hear what Fauci and (Governor) Mills said?”
It’s government induced overreaction and panic. Fauci stopped being a sixtieth long ago. He’s an unelected politician. How many years has it been since he’s looked in a microscope?
me, “Didn’t you hear what Fauci and (Governor) Mills said?”
It’s government induced overreaction and panic. Fauci stopped being a sixtieth long ago. He’s an unelected politician. How many years has it been since he’s looked in a microscope?
what?
So. . . how do you explain Texas, Florida, California and Arizona? Hitting 50,000 cases nationwide? If we could all live in population 26 places your theory might work. Or we might be the one town that has 100% with covid. I'll wear a mask. Seems simpler.
@RJM posted:People are more likely to get sick from all kinds of things now. Everyday life is full of disease. We build up immunities dealing with it. Cowering in place for months breaks down people’s immunity systems.
No. This is a myth. We build up immunities by being exposed to germs since we were babies. There is a lot of science about that. It is true that if your baby/child isn't exposed to germs (too much anti-bacterial soap, for example), his/her immunities are weaker. I did all that research when my mother-in-law was horrified that I was letting my baby crawl on the floor.
Built-up immunities don't go away if we try to stay away from germs for 6 months. In fact we are NOT staying away from germs, unless we stay in hermetically sealed rooms. There are germs literally everywhere. Your immune system has plenty to do, even if you wear a mask so that you don't breathe in other people's droplets when you are indoors. If you are worried, you can wear a mask when in front of other people, and roll around in the grass each day.
I don't even think that anyone has done a scientific study of this kind, perhaps because it's so absurd. If someone can find one, let us know. All I have is these, which include interviews with infectious disease specialists:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/v...system/#23dc3b5f7b88
https://www.lung.org/blog/covid-masks
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health...-questions-1.5593236
"Basically you cannot undermine decades of challenging your immune system simply by handwashing and social distancing for a few months."
Here's a literature review of studies about why people don't wear masks in the face of respiratory epidemics (from 2014):
@Iowamom23 posted:So. . . how do you explain Texas, Florida, California and Arizona? Hitting 50,000 cases nationwide? If we could all live in population 26 places your theory might work. Or we might be the one town that has 100% with covid. I'll wear a mask. Seems simpler.
You missed the point. A comment by Fauci driven home by the governor created overreaction in a town of 32,000 in a part of the state that has had 112 positive tests and 2 deaths.
The point of the town with 26 people was I left civilization and returned to panic and overreaction based on Fauci’s and the governor’s comments.
I left a part of (southern) Maine with a 650,000 and life was returning to normal. Then Fauci and the governor stoked the fear and panic and a town of 32,000 and two total deaths overreacted.
RJM, it is different in Maine than many other parts of the country. I agree that your situation probably was an overreaction. However, in my area, everything you said was happening as well (people were pulling back on being cautious). The difference is that it is spiking like crazy. People are getting a "cold" and then go on as if nothing changed, spreading the virus. The problem isn't about the masks, etc., even though I started to wear one in public too (I know blasphemy), but young people hanging out together and spreading it. It has infected a few people I know personally now, and I feel it is just a matter of time for my family (or who knows, it may be here now). If I was a better parent, I guess I would tell my kids to stay at home. Hard for me to do that with my wife spending more time out than the rest of us combined.
So yes, the cases of COVID is spiking. But death rates aren't. Experts say death rates will lag two weeks. But also we have learned to keep it out of nursing homes and away from older people. So the infection rate has soared and deaths haven't. Guess we will see what comes next.
Mask. People wearing mask with beards, people wearing mask that don't fit properly, people wear mask pulled down over their nose. Just because you are putting a cloth over your face doesn't make you righteous.
Still talking about cases yet again in here. Cases don't mean anything anymore.
In other good news for Illinois, the governors executive orders were found unconstitutional retroactive to early April. He overstepped his legal boundary to restrict businesses, capacity limits, and shutdowns after an initial 30 days, per the IL constitution. IL is free at last! (Until the appeal that I'm sure is coming)
@James G posted:Still talking about cases yet again in here. Cases don't mean anything anymore.
In other good news for Illinois, the governors executive orders were found unconstitutional retroactive to early April. He overstepped his legal boundary to restrict businesses, capacity limits, and shutdowns after an initial 30 days, per the IL constitution. IL is free at last! (Until the appeal that I'm sure is coming)
Kudos to your Governor for standing his ground.
Everyone raved about Governor DeSantis and what a great job he did. What he did was open too soon and turned his back.
Now in the tri county area bars are closed, beaches as well, no 4th of July celebration. People are sick and dying. And it's not just old seniors.
Our governor didn't stand his ground, he just got beaten badly. Actually he was supposed to put in a motion to appeal by yesterday 4pm and they didn't even do it. They know they violated the constitution.
DeSantis has done a phenomenal job. He protected the elderly right away compared to other states and the FL death count per population is wildly better than comparable states.
You can open up, lock down, open for good, stay locked down- it simply doesn't matter with this virus. It is going to run its course no matter what we do. No matter if we all where masks, stay inside, adhere to governor orders or don't...it's too widespread. The best thing for everybody is to live life as normally as possible, allow individuals to protect themselves as they see fit, and allow everyone to support themselves financially with no restrictions. Most importantly, it's vital for everyone to remember their own health is their own responsibility- it does not in any way fall in the hands of someone else to protect your health.
@Iowamom23 posted:So. . . how do you explain Texas, Florida, California and Arizona? Hitting 50,000 cases nationwide? If we could all live in population 26 places your theory might work. Or we might be the one town that has 100% with covid. I'll wear a mask. Seems simpler.
I can tell you what happened in Texas : Memorial weekend, HS graduation parties, and bars reopening. All resulting in large gatherings of young people who gave no consideration to social distancing, wearing masks or limiting numbers.
@James G posted:Our governor didn't stand his ground, he just got beaten badly. Actually he was supposed to put in a motion to appeal by yesterday 4pm and they didn't even do it. They know they violated the constitution.
DeSantis has done a phenomenal job. He protected the elderly right away compared to other states and the FL death count per population is wildly better than comparable states.
You can open up, lock down, open for good, stay locked down- it simply doesn't matter with this virus. It is going to run its course no matter what we do. No matter if we all where masks, stay inside, adhere to governor orders or don't...it's too widespread. The best thing for everybody is to live life as normally as possible, allow individuals to protect themselves as they see fit, and allow everyone to support themselves financially with no restrictions. Most importantly, it's vital for everyone to remember their own health is their own responsibility- it does not in any way fall in the hands of someone else to protect your health.
Kudos to your Governor for doing what he did to help stop the spread, legal or not.
Don't believe everything you hear on the news! DeSantis didn't do anything to stop the spring breakers, close down beach bars, close beaches, or stop planes from flying in. It was a zoo. People from NY, NJ came down to stay with the grandparents. It was the individuals communities that kicked them out. Any one from out of town had to stay indoors. That forced everyone to leave. Temperatures were to be taken as people got off the plan, didn't happen. People came here sick.
He didn't protect the elderly right away. And he did not protect the health care workers who cared for them either. The man doesn't even know how to put on a mask! Just in the last week because of the numbers, he finally suggested wearing a mask may help. He made an ass of himself.
The seriousness of this is that there is or never was a national plan. States had to figure it out on their own to protect their citizens and people got pissed. Too bad. This weekend Miami Dade has a curfew and a mask in place order.
So where are we now. Governor of South Carolina threatens no football, Pac 12 out west wondering what to do. NCAA thinking lets try this next spring. Universities and colleges wondering how are we going to get these Kids back on campus without them getting sick. MLB trying to keep guys healthy, another Miami Heat player is sick, haven't heard much about the NFL except changing the anthem, and race car driver Jimmie Johnson test positive.
And people actually still arguing about wearing a mask!
@TPM posted:I don't know you tell me. Go back and read your post!
Sounds like you started celebrating a bit early!
Sounds like our conversations are coming from different planets. Viking understood. Reopening in Maine isn’t a cause for celebration. It never should have closed in the first place. The South Dakota approach of distancing and caution would have worked fine. Only 105 people died. Not one was a healthy person. All 105 had preexisting medical conditions. 90% were over 70.
@RJM posted:Sounds like our conversations are coming from different planets. Viking understood. Reopening in Maine isn’t a cause for celebration. It never should have closed in the first place. The South Dakota approach of distancing and caution would have worked fine. Only 105 people died. Not one was a healthy person. All 105 had preexisting medical conditions. 90% were over 70.
Go back and read your post, you repeated yourself.
@TPM posted:Kudos to your Governor for standing his ground.
Everyone raved about Governor DeSantis and what a great job he did. What he did was open too soon and turned his back.
Now in the tri county area bars are closed, beaches as well, no 4th of July celebration. People are sick and dying. And it's not just old seniors.
According to IHME deaths in Florida are below peak. More people are testing positive due to increased testing and young people getting out an socializing.
The average age of people testing positive across the country is mid 30’s. Very few of these people will die. They just need to stay away from the elderly and people with health conditions. More importantly the elderly and people with health conditions have a responsibility to themselves to stay away from places where they would be likely to cross pass with younger carriers.
