Elephant in the room

@RoadRunner posted:

It’s unfortunate that some do not understand that difference between a scholarly research article and opinion pieces written by scholars and non scholars. 

Some do and some do not understand the difference between scholarly research articles, evidence and literature reviews published in peer-reviewed journals, opinion pieces in peer-reviewed journals, opinion pieces on medical websites, opinion pieces in newspapers, and opinions on baseball discussion boards.  Anything that is referenced so that a reader can trace back to the original scientific article has legitimacy; anything without references back to the original sources can't be trusted.

RJM, good for you that you go out; as you have repeatedly told us, you're in Maine where there are few cases.  Maybe you would be more hesitant in Florida?  Some people are spending money right now, some are not.  If everyone was, the economy would be booming.  Many people don't have jobs, and hence money to spend.

I had thought (and kind of hoped) that this thread had run its course.  Oh well, better to keep the virus here than infect the other threads.

@TPM posted:

Online retail sales are thru the roof, stand alone stores and malls are not doing well, retail stores are giving things away. 

People are spending money on necessities.  And many people are being evicted, have to go to food banks daily.

Another source no one will like — NPR reported last week that poor people are spending at regular levels, cause they buy necessities. Rich people are way below usual cause they spent their money on restaurants, travel, entertainment, etc. — non necessities. So they aren't spending cause they don't feel safe.

@RJM posted:

Back to my point — people will go out and spend money if and when they feel safe. Making us feel that way needs to be our priority.

So, let’s open up. Those who feel safe can go where they want to go. Those who don’t feel safe can stay home until they feel safe. It’s freedom of choice. 

I don’t understand the “you’re going to infect others if you go out” attitude. The only people that might infect me, or vice versus are those who are out because they accept the risk. Those telling us not to go out aren’t out. 

I’ve now dined out twenty three times (eighteen lunch/five dinner) times since 6/1. I’ve been in Home Depot four times. The only time I’ve been remotely concerned was this last weekend when a person spit on me for having a Blue Lives Matter sticker on my bike. From a health standpoint I’m not losing any sleep a person spit on me.

On this site we talk a lot about be concerned about what you can control. If anyone is afraid to go out it can be controlled by not going out. Just don’t try to control me.

I’m up front with my friends on where I’ve been. Even my friends who were paranoid from March to May have had enough. When I’m in the grocery store I make an effort to stay six feet away from everyone. 

 

Here's the point, many businesses can't afford to open up and have no one come shop. Your option is we can all do what we want and if people don't feel comfortable, they don't have to go. Too bad there's not enough of you to actually keep businesses alive.

@anotherparent posted:

Some do and some do not understand the difference between scholarly research articles, evidence and literature reviews published in peer-reviewed journals, opinion pieces in peer-reviewed journals, opinion pieces on medical websites, opinion pieces in newspapers, and opinions on baseball discussion boards.  Anything that is referenced so that a reader can trace back to the original scientific article has legitimacy; anything without references back to the original sources can't be trusted.

RJM, good for you that you go out; as you have repeatedly told us, you're in Maine where there are few cases.  Maybe you would be more hesitant in Florida?  Some people are spending money right now, some are not.  If everyone was, the economy would be booming.  Many people don't have jobs, and hence money to spend.

I had thought (and kind of hoped) that this thread had run its course.  Oh well, better to keep the virus here than infect the other threads.

I’m back at my home fifteen miles outside Boston. I’m going into the city tomorrow to have lunch with friends. 

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Have you seen any of the numbers for retail recently? I’d say the country doesn’t have any issues spending money right now. 

Maybe you don't. A lot of people don't have any money for retail. They're worried about food. Trying to figure out how I'm going to cover my $500 air conditioner repair over the next month, but i'm lucky, I have air conditioning.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Brick and mortar retail has been down long before Covid. Covid was the nail in the coffin. My point to Iowamom is people are spending money. People are going to restaurants and spending money. 

I’ve been to 2 different malls and both required masks to enter stores and had limits on numbers of shoppers. People aren’t spending money on brick and mortar retail because they don’t feel safe, they aren’t spending that money because they switched a long time ago to Amazon and online shopping. 

Because two malls clearly is representative of the entire country??? 

@Iowamom23 posted:

Another source no one will like — NPR reported last week that poor people are spending at regular levels, cause they buy necessities. Rich people are way below usual cause they spent their money on restaurants, travel, entertainment, etc. — non necessities. So they aren't spending cause they don't feel safe.

Think about all the business travel money that hasn’t been spent.

@RJM posted:

Think about all the business travel money that hasn’t been spent.

Yep. Or on parents going to see their kids baseball games. I personally "saved" about $5,000. I'd spent it in a minute to have baseball back.

I don't do my shopping on Amazon. I try to support local businesses.  Here you can order online and they bring it to your car.   But right now we don't spend much except at the grocery store. Iowamom23 is correct about people struggling.  

TerribleBPthrower,  your county had less opening guidelines than where I live. Very strict and they never reached full capacity in restaurants. Smaller restaurants not chains closed. The more exclusive malls have been busy. Probably not after this weekend.

@Iowamom23 posted:

Maybe you don't. A lot of people don't have any money for retail. They're worried about food. Trying to figure out how I'm going to cover my $500 air conditioner repair over the next month, but i'm lucky, I have air conditioning.

You stated people aren’t spending money because they don’t feel safe. I simply stated I don’t agree. Now you’re changing it to they are poor and don’t have money. I agree and feel terrible about the number of people and families that are out of work. But that wasn’t your argument about retail spend. 

And no, 2 malls don’t represent the entire country. Can you show me any examples of malls that are open without any restrictions? Every store I’ve entered in the past 2 weeks required a mask and distancing. 

@TPM posted:

I don't do my shopping on Amazon. I try to support local businesses.  Here you can order online and they bring it to your car.   But right now we don't spend much except at the grocery store. Iowamom23 is correct about people struggling.  

TerribleBPthrower,  your county had less opening guidelines than where I live. Very strict and they never reached full capacity in restaurants. Smaller restaurants not chains closed. The more exclusive malls have been busy. Probably not after this weekend.

This has nothing to do with my county. I’ve been home for 2 days in the past 2 weeks. I was referring to the different stores and restaurants we visited between here and GA. *edit* I forgot that 4 of those days were in MA. If you think Broward is strict you should see how life is up there.  The malls I referenced were in Palm Beach over a month ago. Palm Beach is also much more strict than Martin  

Again, Iowamom said people weren’t spending money on retail because they don’t feel safe. Yes, there are a lot of people who don’t have money to spend. No argument there. Mom and pop and big box retail was in trouble long before this crises. 

relax BP this is typical, when they don't get the responses they want...they just move the goal posts. Facts are a funny thing. 

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

This has nothing to do with my county. I’ve been home for 2 days in the past 2 weeks. I was referring to the different stores and restaurants we visited between here and GA. *edit* I forgot that 4 of those days were in MA. If you think Broward is strict you should see how life is up there.  The malls I referenced were in Palm Beach over a month ago. Palm Beach is also much more strict than Martin  

Again, Iowamom said people weren’t spending money on retail because they don’t feel safe. Yes, there are a lot of people who don’t have money to spend. No argument there. Mom and pop and big box retail was in trouble long before this crises. 

People don't feel safe AND have less money to shop these days.

Thanks for clarifying that you were out of state and the stores you visited were in PB over a month ago. That certainly changes the goal posts!

@anotherparent posted:

Some do and some do not understand the difference between scholarly research articles, evidence and literature reviews published in peer-reviewed journals, opinion pieces in peer-reviewed journals, opinion pieces on medical websites, opinion pieces in newspapers, and opinions on baseball discussion boards.  Anything that is referenced so that a reader can trace back to the original scientific article has legitimacy; anything without references back to the original sources can't be trusted.

RJM, good for you that you go out; as you have repeatedly told us, you're in Maine where there are few cases.  Maybe you would be more hesitant in Florida?  Some people are spending money right now, some are not.  If everyone was, the economy would be booming.  Many people don't have jobs, and hence money to spenI had thought (and kind of hoped) that this thread had run its course.  Oh well, better to keep the virus here than infect the other threads.

Apprehensive in going out? No.  I’m in Texas and ate out and went to Target twice the 2 days before we hopped on a plane with 7 family members for vacation. Earlier in the month, we vacationed in Florida for a baseball tournament (great time, ate out sat on the beach) and we will fly home Sunday through Miami from our current location.  Not at all worried.  Just not going to stop living.

My son’s girlfriend’s father works for the hospital and is still on cut hours and the hospital still has reduced staff.

@TPM posted:

People don't feel safe AND have less money to shop these days.

Thanks for clarifying that you were out of state and the stores you visited were in PB over a month ago. That certainly changes the goal posts!

 

I have no idea what you mean by that changes the goalposts. You made a comment about my county and I was making you aware that I was referring to a lot of areas outside of my county. The restrictions at the Palm Beach malls are the same as they were a month ago; limits on numbers of shoppers, masks, little lines on the floor to remind people to stay away from each other. These are the basically the same thing I've seen pretty much everywhere.

If I lived in Miami or Broward I certainly would be more careful with where I went and what I did. 

@anotherparent posted:

I had thought (and kind of hoped) that this thread had run its course.  Oh well, better to keep the virus here than infect the other threads.

Using your logic, maybe all posters should be quarantined to this one thread for two weeks.  The moderators should can anybody who posts about covid to do so in this thread, but once they do so, they have to wait 14 days to post in another thread.  A little tongue in cheek, but you actually made a pretty good point.

I do not think spending is down because of fear.  I think it is down because it is such a pain to go in the stores that have all these requirements, if they are open.  Many people do not want to wear the mask and so they go shop where it is not required.  I have noticed many stores that once required it are now dropping that policy near us because their sales have greatly decreased. 

Again, I believe that the perception of this virus is much according to your political stance, where you are in the nation, family health, and just natural fears.  I would love for somebody to explain to me why I can't go in a store but people can protest in the thousands.  If people and officials are so worried about this virus, then why are they not arresting all these thousands of protesters. 

Well, I think spending is down partly because of what you say, and partly because of people who don't want to come into contact with people who aren't wearing masks.  Neither the people who want masks, nor the people who want no masks, make up enough of a customer base to keep businesses operating.  What, then, is the answer?  It would seem that someone has to get everyone on board with one or the other.  Or, a clever business would have some hours for people in masks, air out the store, then have hours without masks.  But, what about the employees?  Would they have a choice about whether or not to work?

So that's the business side of it.  However, given that many governors have now accepted that masks will help to slow down transmission, it would seem that people have to follow the rules set out by their elected officials.  Unless they don't believe in elections and rules.  And I agree that the same rules should be followed by protestors and shoppers and partiers (and baseball players?) - which is usually wear masks when indoors.

I have seen the argument several times here and elsewhere... "why don't the same rules apply for protesters?"  Well, IMO, they do.  But, proper enforcement is a challenging issue in many circumstances, let alone the often emotionally charged atmosphere of a protest.  Law enforcement is often put in the position where it must pick and choose when and how to enforce as to not create worse problems than what the given offense presents. 

Add to that the fact that many current protests are based around BLM, law enforcement excessive force and racism while we are in the midst of this pandemic.  These are not easy waters for law enforcement to navigate and should not be over-simplified with "same rules should apply.. ".  Even with the best of intentions and proper protocol, poorly timed enforcement can quickly escalate into a multitude of very bad results.  Are there often bad results with no immediate enforcement?  Yes, for sure.  We've seen plenty of that too.  No easy solutions sometimes.  (I realize I am stepping beyond just enforcement of masks here, and getting off topic a bit).

I have seen many public officials state their support of the right of people to peacefully protest.  I have yet to see any of them come out and state full support protesting without following recommended guidelines for social distancing, masks, etc.  Just as in cities where government officials state strong suggestions and/or guidelines the proper precautions should be followed but so many choose to ignore, many of the protesters are doing the same.  Unfortunate.  IMO, this is just going to prolong the problem, cost more lives and cost the country more economically in the long run.  Pretty much every other country in the world is proving this to us.

@cabbagedad posted:

I have seen the argument several times here and elsewhere... "why don't the same rules apply for protesters?"  Well, IMO, they do.  But, proper enforcement is a challenging issue in many circumstances, let alone the often emotionally charged atmosphere of a protest.  Law enforcement is often put in the position where it must pick and choose when and how to enforce as to not create worse problems than what the given offense presents. 

Add to that the fact that many current protests are based around BLM, law enforcement excessive force and racism while we are in the midst of this pandemic.  These are not easy waters for law enforcement to navigate and should not be over-simplified with "same rules should apply.. ".  Even with the best of intentions and proper protocol, poorly timed enforcement can quickly escalate into a multitude of very bad results.  Are there often bad results with no immediate enforcement?  Yes, for sure.  We've seen plenty of that too.  No easy solutions sometimes.  (I realize I am stepping beyond just enforcement of masks here, and getting off topic a bit).

I have seen many public officials state their support of the right of people to peacefully protest.  I have yet to see any of them come out and state full support protesting without following recommended guidelines for social distancing, masks, etc.  

I highlighted all of the points you made that explain why the same rules DO NOT apply to protestors.

Spent the last 10 days in SoCal. Rented a Airbnb for the first 5 days and a hotel for the last 5 days. Newport Beach was packed everyday. Beaches were suppose to be for active use only, not even close. People everywhere, towels, chairs, beach games. Zero enforcement. San Diego was the same. Hotel required masks, had no amenities, no maid service and all other services were shut down. Again, beaches were packed. In some cases, on some beaches, swimmers were warned of ocean contamination, stay out of the water, sewage from Tijuana. Again, zero compliance and enforcement. At Ocean Beach, there was a cove packed with young people(500+) partying with zero social distancing, no masks and no care for the rules.

All in all, this was an eye opener of irresponsible people acting irresponsibly. It's no wonder there is an uptick in positive cases. I am not a big supporter of shut downs, but see that a lot of people need to get a clue.  

I think there is a way to do this responsibly, but counting on others to do the right thing doesn't seem to be working.

@Smitty28 posted:

I highlighted all of the points you made that explain why the same rules DO NOT apply to protestors.

Just as a note, the first protests during the pandemic were people protesting the lockdowns.  They certainly weren't wearing masks, and they weren't arrested either, that set a precedent.  Not enforcing the rules for protestors seems to apply to all sides. 

Sounds magnificent. People living how they want to live. How it should be. Cases don't mean deaths. And for most everyone they don't mean hospitalizations either. Just live how you want to and make decisions based on your own health. Nobody is responsible for the health of someone else. 

@anotherparent posted:

Just as a note, the first protests during the pandemic were people protesting the lockdowns.  They certainly weren't wearing masks, and they weren't arrested either, that set a precedent.  Not enforcing the rules for protestors seems to apply to sides. 

Good point.  I wonder how BLM protesters would have been treated had they stormed into state houses armed with AK-47s like some of those lockdown protesters did.

I saw on TV that many beach towns around the country do not have the personnel to keep people off the beaches. People want to have their freedom, but are not willing to show the responsibility to earn it.

@James G posted:

...Just live how you want to and make decisions based on your own health. Nobody is responsible for the health of someone else. 

... you mean sorta like we used to say about smoking and drinking?  ... until the whole impact of second-hand smoke and drunk driving deaths (including the innocent in the other car but dead all the same) started becoming apparent?  Yeah, I can see that !?!?!?

@cabbagedad posted:

... you mean sorta like we used to say about smoking and drinking?  ... until the whole impact of second-hand smoke and drunk driving deaths (including the innocent in the other car but dead all the same) started becoming apparent?  Yeah, I can see that !?!?!?

Drinking and driving is not the same as drinking. If people want to drink, they can. Drinking and then driving is a completely separate action and bad analogy to this.  

Same with smoking. You want to smoke, go for it. Doesn't affect me. 

Both have risks, and people can assess them and make decisions. 

There are laws associated with smoking in public and drinking and driving. 

As of right now, there are no laws associated with masks and other covid restrictions. Until there is law passed with anything right now, people are free to live how they want. Laws are laws, morals are morals, feelings are feelings. Always remember the difference between them. 

Smoking is a decent analogy to this, because they have shown that second-hand smoke can affect someone's health.  If you want to smoke in your car, fine.  If you want to smoke in the office where I work, not fine, it threatens my health.  Same as with drunk driving.

Has there been a court case about mask mandates yet?  Ah, here you go, a quick google:  https://komonews.com/news/loca...es-face-mask-mandate.  Here's another:  https://www.boston.com/news/co...awsuit-charlie-baker.   And even in Texas:  https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/co...-mask-order/2400685/.

I guess when these get settled by the Supreme Court, we'll know. 

@James G posted:

Drinking and driving is not the same as drinking. If people want to drink, they can. Drinking and then driving is a completely separate action and bad analogy to this.  

Same with smoking. You want to smoke, go for it. Doesn't affect me. 

Both have risks, and people can assess them and make decisions. 

There are laws associated with smoking in public and drinking and driving. 

As of right now, there are no laws associated with masks and other covid restrictions. Until there is law passed with anything right now, people are free to live how they want. Laws are laws, morals are morals, feelings are feelings. Always remember the difference between them. 

I'll give you some on the drinking angle.  I suffer, as do several others I know, effects of having grown up living in a house with smokers even though I didn't smoke.  There were no laws about smoking wherever you wanted back then either.

I'm very aware of the difference between laws, morals and feelings.  I FEEL that it is just as important to have decent morals and respect the well-being of others as it is to follow laws.  I FEEL that our society as a whole used to be a whole lot better at having that perspective.  Yeah, I am also aware that many others don't share those sentiments.

Touche @cabbagedad I often forget what was like with smoking decades ago. I was a kid early 80s and can still remember restaurants being filled with smoke. My family didn't, but you're right about public places being a free for all. 

@Picked Off posted:

Spent the last 10 days in SoCal. Rented a Airbnb for the first 5 days and a hotel for the last 5 days. Newport Beach was packed everyday. Beaches were suppose to be for active use only, not even close. People everywhere, towels, chairs, beach games. Zero enforcement. San Diego was the same. Hotel required masks, had no amenities, no maid service and all other services were shut down. Again, beaches were packed. In some cases, on some beaches, swimmers were warned of ocean contamination, stay out of the water, sewage from Tijuana. Again, zero compliance and enforcement. At Ocean Beach, there was a cove packed with young people(500+) partying with zero social distancing, no masks and no care for the rules.

All in all, this was an eye opener of irresponsible people acting irresponsibly. It's no wonder there is an uptick in positive cases. I am not a big supporter of shut downs, but see that a lot of people need to get a clue.  

I think there is a way to do this responsibly, but counting on others to do the right thing doesn't seem to be working.

 

Your post just made me think of something absurd. You can travel the 655 mile length of California without any restrictions. Yet, when I travel from just north of Boston back to Portland, Maine I’m supposed to quarantine (fat chance) for fourteen days. It’s 20 miles from the MA state line to the ME state line.

@James G posted:

Touche @cabbagedad I often forget what was like with smoking decades ago. I was a kid early 80s and can still remember restaurants being filled with smoke. My family didn't, but you're right about public places being a free for all. 

Flashback ... We were living in Southern CA where smoking in bars and restaurants was already being halted. We moved to Northern NJ. We walked into a McDonalds. The four tables against one wall was the no smoking section. As if that made a difference. 

Being in the first row of non smoking in an airplane was a joke.

@anotherparent posted:

Just as a note, the first protests during the pandemic were people protesting the lockdowns.  They certainly weren't wearing masks, and they weren't arrested either, that set a precedent.  Not enforcing the rules for protestors seems to apply to all sides. 

Not true.  They specifically call out protesting for BLM as permissible.  1200 doctors signed a letter to this effect, and every city has endorsed this policy (written or unwritten).

@James G posted:

Drinking and driving is not the same as drinking. If people want to drink, they can. Drinking and then driving is a completely separate action and bad analogy to this.  

Same with smoking. You want to smoke, go for it. Doesn't affect me. 

Both have risks, and people can assess them and make decisions. 

There are laws associated with smoking in public and drinking and driving. 

As of right now, there are no laws associated with masks and other covid restrictions. Until there is law passed with anything right now, people are free to live how they want. Laws are laws, morals are morals, feelings are feelings. Always remember the difference between them. 

In my county, in every retail store, their is a sign that states wearing a mask is the law, then gives the ordinance and penalties. For customers as well as employees. So in some places, I guess that is the law.

The Atlanta major plans to sign executive order mandating that masks are to be worn in city.  She did this after Kemp said no.

@old_school posted:

wow, what a weekend...some of you good intentioned folks really need to do more drinking!!! 

People die, that is what they do. it isn't going to stop...doesn't matter how you feel about it. 

The country is past stopping, they are done with it, again your feelings are not relevant because we need to live. People with about an ounce of common sense know that individuals need to protect themselves...end of conversation.

the tide never stops, there are is a new crop of college grads looking to start careers, new HS grads moving to school, new kindergarten kids waiting for September... you can't stop, you will be run over from behind, you do the best you can and keep moving...you can stop being a pussy.

Give me any place, organization, team, church or whatever that stops operating for the good of 1% or maybe 2% of the organization? They don't exist...because it is a stupid idea and not possible. 

Grow up folks. now I really need to get some work before 9 because I am taking off the rest of the day to go look at some vacation homes!! 

I agree 1000000000%

https://off-guardian.org/2020/...wave-not-even-close/
This is an interesting article, mainly about herd immunity. The article defines terms differently than others I have read and that is why I posted it. It would be nice if the author is correct. We can only hope. 

@TPM posted:

I saw on TV that many beach towns around the country do not have the personnel to keep people off the beaches. People want to have their freedom, but are not willing to show the responsibility to earn it.

 

Earn it....freedom was earned by blood guts in battle....stfu about earned freedom comrade TPM - Jesus talk about showing true colors 

@RoadRunner posted:

https://off-guardian.org/2020/...wave-not-even-close/
This is an interesting article, mainly about herd immunity. The article defines terms differently than others I have read and that is why I posted it. It would be nice if the author is correct. We can only hope. 

I 100% hope this article turns out to be correct about herd immunity among other observations.   Don't read it if you are easily triggered, especially the Florida hospitalization explanations.  The next few weeks are really going to tell the story in my opinion for Florida, Texas, and California in particular.   

@RoadRunner posted:

https://off-guardian.org/2020/...wave-not-even-close/
This is an interesting article, mainly about herd immunity. The article defines terms differently than others I have read and that is why I posted it. It would be nice if the author is correct. We can only hope. 

Not just interesting, but rather the truth. I'm no doctor but I've been around the block a few times. Been saying this since March. Common sense went out the window months ago.

Great article with well presented facts and data. No chance some people buy the explanation about FL hospitalizations. 

Coincidentally, I talked to a hospital exec at the dentist today. He said they have put a ban on employees sharing ICU info with the media because they are distorting it for their stories. He commented that they always keep the ICU close to capacity and shift people around as needed.