BIO

A graduate of Stanford and Harvard Law, Julie Lythcott-Haims practiced law in the Bay Area for many years before returning to Stanford as an Associate Dean, and then Assistant to the President (John Hennessy). After that, she spent a decade as the Dean of Freshmen, a position she created in 2002. Almost 20,000 undergraduates matriculated on her watch, and in 2010 she received the university’s Lloyd W. Dinkelspiel Award. To her students she was affectionately known as “Dean Julie.”

So I guess it was ok and fitting for her to  chase the stanford/harvard dream but would be way too pressure packed for mere mortals.  Kind of lost me already right there.  I will pass on her sage advice and continue to follow my own conscience and values.

Not a bad read, just someone's perspective, generalities mostly.

 

Some super smart poster wrote something last year that stuck in my head.  "Are you preparing the road for your child or preparing your child for the road?" (paraphrased)

 

I stopped micro managing my son's school work this year. I used to know when every assignment was due, when every test was, and would structure his time.  I now just hold him accountable for his grades.  He's an 8th grader this year.  First nine weeks just came out, wasn't too pretty.  But I think it helped him.  We'll see.  Travel coaches make the kids turn in report cards to them.  He got some talk time from the coach on what not so good grades would to for his college opportunities.

I think its the concept of parents not being able to let go, teaching their children to make decisions on their own so that they function in the real world as adults.

 

I wouldn't be honest if I didn't admit that we have been that parent at times in our children's lives.  I raised my kids differently because I learned a lot from the first from what I should have or should not have done.

 

In sports here is an example. I saw a dad this summer plant himself at the backstop telling his son what to do each time he came up at bat. The kid was good, really good, but coaching him while the coaches were also coaching was just wrong.  The player was 16 years old. 

 

I also know parents that do their children's homework, I am not talking about elementary school kids. How is this helping the child?  How is that child going to be able to cope when they do go to college (after mom or dad have filled out all of the applications and did all of the homework)?

 

When do you let it go?

 

I think she brings up some valid points. I also think that this is a very good topic that has been brought up here since the term was first invented (many many years ago) and frankly, I don't see things getting any better as far as parents letting their children learn to be more responsible for themselves to be able to handle adulthood.

 

JMO

 

 

The world is just a different place than it was when most on this board grew up.  And changes are exponential these days.  You have a generation of kids who haven't seen a CD or floppy disc.  They have a library of information (good and bad) at their fingertips (most have probably never checked out a book).  Add the mobile phone and social media.  Throw in a little "zero tolerance" and political correctness.  These days things can go very wrong for kids, very fast.  The stakes are higher.          

 

Back when the copy machine came out, we all know someone who "copied" his butt.  Today, a kid posts a picture of his butt online and it can be a federal offense.  Many times, there is no going back. 

 

Thus, parenting becomes different.  You have to watch and be diligent.  There are so many unintended consequences from todays rules.  I can't tell you how many times I looked at something my kid was doing for school, and had to ask myself is this "ok."  Things, you and I would never think of.  Do we protecting them from failure -- you bet your butt because the consequences of failure are huge.

 

Now that's different from making them wusses and doing everything for them. 

I am glad that you added that in because there is a big difference in trying to help your kids understand what it means to be responsible with social media and doing their homework.

 

 

Thank you golf.  You put that much more eloquently than I could have.  That is the problem I have every time a subject like this comes up.  The world is 180 degrees from what it was when I grew up.  When I was a kid no cell phones and the first answering machines were just coming out.  Only the rich could afford them.  Video pong shocked the world with a game you could play on your tv (black and white in our case).  You played outside late into the night because every neighbors yard you ran through knew you and your parents.  You could fight one day (physically) and be friends again the next day.  And there was honor in fighting then.  No friends jumping in - just one on one - and when somebody admitted defeat the fight was over.  You didn't just continue to beat him senseless because you could.  No guns or knives were pulled except in the rarest of cases.  Bullies were handled by a tougher good guy. You did something stupid and the neighborhood cop sent you home and threatened to tell your dad next time.  Cops took your beer and sent you home from your high school party - only if you were loud otherwise they left you alone to your underage drinking.  I could go on and on.  Already too much of a trip down memory lane...  but bottom line is you better give more guidance than our parents did cause things change.  Sad for them but true.

 

Sure thing, you better do your due diligence to know where your children are or who they are with.  No argument with that.

But , what does that have to do with the article posted?

 

 

I told my kids if there's an ounce of doubt in your mind, there's a good chance you're doing the wrong thing or you're in the wrong place.

 

i allowed my kids to make mistakes when they were young. It was things that wouldn't harm them. An example was I told them they got x dollars per week for the ice cream man. I suggested they buy one per day. When my son was five he bought two each of the first three days. On the 5th day he asked for more money. I refused. He learned to budget.

Ice cream every day???? 

 

When I was growing up, wheat germ on our sugarless cereal was dad's idea of a treat. 

 

Chasing the Stanford/Harvard dream back in her day was nothing at all what it is like to chase that dream today.   Partly due to the rise of the common app, partly due to the the way parenting has developed, kids who are chasing the Stanford/Harvard dream these days are under a LOT more psychological and emotional stress. Julie Lynthcott-Haims has seen this up close and personal, believe  me.  In one freshman dorm at Stanford last year, for example,  nearly 1/3 of the students were on some form of anti-depressant.   Lots and lots of stress and pressure on ambitious, high achieving kids these days that just wasn't there back in the day. 

 

Harvard has a very informative and powerful letter on its website, addressed to all admitted students, their parents, and potential students, urging all admitted students to consider taking  a gap year  before starting Harvard, once admitted.   It gets at many of the same things that Lythcott-Haims is talking about.   I think it should be required reading for high achieving students and the parents, teachers and counselors who push them so relentlessly. 

 

Here's a little excerpt that's particularly  relevant to us all here as parents of sports ambitious kids:

 

Sports, music, dance, and other recreational activities used to provide a welcome break, a time to relax and unwind. No more: training for college scholarships—or professional contracts—begins early, even in grammar school. Professional instruction, summer camps, and weekly practice and game schedules consume many hours and nearly all free time. Student and family commuting logistics become byzantine in their complexity. Even “play-time” is often structured and enriched with just the right mix of appropriate playmates and educational activities. Summer vacations have become a thing of the past. The pace of the day and the year allows little time simply “to be a kid”—or, it seems, to develop into a complete human being.

 

The entire letter is here:

 

https://college.harvard.edu/ad...e/should-i-take-time

There were incredible amounts of stress back in the day also on those kids.  There were just fewer of those kids.  I was the first one ever and I mean ever in my family going back to time immemorial who graduated from college.  I had no intention of being a 'college boy'.  That was for people who were not my kind.  My dad worked at the plant, my brother worked at the plant and I was going to work at the plant.  So I took my high IQ and turned it into a 1.96 gpa in high school while I bided my time to work at the plant.  Just before I graduated the plant announced it was closing.  Just about all the steel mills in town had closed, GAF and the breweries were long gone.  Times were changing.  I found myself in a world that has passed my kind by.  I had no choice but to go to college.  Now I realize our entire family was played by 'the man'.  Just like this lady wealth and power is right for them but you shouldn't strive for it cause its just too much pressure.  How many times have you heard the business owner say 'I wouldn't wish this on anybody' or 'my business dominates my life' (says he while he sits at the country club with his buddies after his midweek round of golf.)  Perhaps there is some pressure when you are trying to climb your way up from the bottom.  I wish my dad would have been savvy enough to make me realize we could and should compete for the almighty dollar.  I will not make that mistake with my kids.  Money CAN buy happiness and a lack thereof is sure to bring misery.  Will there be pressure along the way?  Perhaps, but someday hopefully my kids are sitting at the country club after their midweek round of golf...  and hopefully they are comfortable but charitable at the same time.  And hopefully my kids steal a slice of that pie the ruling classes don't want to share.  So I will continue to guide my children and nudge them to be better than me.  And WE will do it together yes WE as in myself my wife and my kids.

2020Dad - I see that this article really rubbed you the wrong way.  I'm struggling a little bit to see why because I agree with much of what you wrote, but I also very much agree with much of what the Stanford Dean says.

 

A few years ago I had an employee in my office, madder than he!! because we weren't going to hire his daughter for an internship.  One of the supervisors under me said he would, I said no.  His daughter was a communications major, we are a national research lab.  It wasn't a good fit and besides, I didn't think it was the best idea to hire kids directly into their parents organization.

 

What did he do next?  Went to the lawyers.  Does that sound right to you?  To me, this is the ultimate 'helicopter parent.'

 

But now the response gets fuzzy - the lawyers told me that while we couldn't do him a 'favor' by hiring his daughter, we also couldn't eliminate her.  So I went back to the employees supervisor (also a good friend of his) and said, 'look me in the eye and tell me you're not doing him a favor.'  The supervisor basically lied and said, 'no, absolutely not.'

 

So I let him hire her to do 'communications' for one of our labs.  By the end of the summer, she was tied for THE WORST intern we'd ever had.  She embarrassed her father (although I don't know if he ever figured that out) because many of his colleagues were talking about it without him in the room.  He effectively humiliated his daughter and I'm not the only one who saw it that way.

 

But note that I said "tied for the worst."  Who did she tie with?  Yeah, you guessed it, the daughter of one of the lead HR managers at our lab who successfully pressured my boss to pressure us to take her.  Total waste.  She began her end of summer presentation with, "What did I learn on my summer internship - that I'd never want to be an engineer."

 

#Awesome!! 

 

So here's my thought - we're all helicopter parents to some degree and OF COURSE we should help our kids achieve dreams.  Point out the pathway, be a mentor and provide the venue within our means.  But how far are you willing to go? - and I think thats what the Dean is asking us to ask ourselves.  And I especially like her advice that there are plenty of good schools not named Stanford or Harvard.  I went to a gigantic State U. that you wouldn't list in hardly anyone's top 100 schools and got a great education and have been very successful - probably beyond my dreams - and I got to go to Stanford for grad school to boot!

 

I do feel that I became a better parent with better long term results when I began to let my 6 kids make mistakes, pick themselves up and figure out how to solve it themselves and move forward.  It has been tough a few times (really tough!), but I really like what we're getting on the other end of that in terms of how our kids are doing as young adults.  This is what I think the main message is by the Dean.

Money IMO buys opportunities, but you can have it and still be unhappy. not to get off topic but leading a grateful life is what personally makes me happy. There's also a myth that you will/should be happy every minute. Life doesn't work that way. 

College life can be very difficult for young adults. Hopefully they go with a strong sense of self and realize it's only a temporary stop in life. Make the best of it, and move on to the next step. We need to let our kids experience ups/down and know they can work through things and come out better for it. 

Ive seen academic parents be just as "involved" in their kids grades, as sports parents that are over the top pushing their athletes.

Just BB you are right it did rub me the wrong way.  And I probably showed my you know what a little too much.  But that is how I feel.  It is a gigantic red button pushed when I hear people saying (like she did) that its wrong, inadvisable or whatever term you want to use for us to worry about what school our kids go to.  And let them find their own way in life.  If you are born into wealth and knowledge you can find your own way.  When you re born into struggles that is what you know.  You need somebody to tell you it doesn't have to be that way.  I put myself behind the 8 ball.  My fault not my parents.  But I wish the value of money was promoted in my house as much as the value of religion and being a good person.  When I finally came out of the ether and changed my direction it was too late.  Took the LSAT, scored very high got accepted to law school only to realize I couldn't swing it financially as I already had my first child (who is now on a full ride academic - we are winning 1-0 so far and we are in the early innings!).  My parents laid the groundwork by working so hard to send us all through catholic schools in spite of the fact it left them broke week after week.  But I saw the other side there.  Didn't catch on quickly enough but saw it.  My kids may or may not drink but I will lead them to water.  Encourage them to hang with the rich and popular and make connections that will serve them well later in life.  Then hopefully someday their children - my grandchildren - will be born with that silver spoon in their mouths.  But when WE as a family have climbed that mountain hopefully they will lend a hand and pull others up with them, not tell them how stressful the climb is and they should just stay down where it is comfortable.  "You don't want my money and all the headaches it brings, just stay where you are"  What does all this have to do with baseball?  No different in athletics.  It is a big red button for me when the parents (who probably mean no harm) of college players talk about how hard it is to get there and we parents of young ones are dreaming.  I teach my kids and the kids i coach to never let anyone tell you what you can or can't do.  And if we fail in the long run we will know we fought the fight as hard as we could.  Yes WE, cause it takes a team effort to elevate sometimes.  Yes just BB a bit of a sensitive subject for me.  But everything you need to know in life can be learned from the godfather "I lived my life, and I don't apologize, to take care of my family"  If its good enough for Vito Corleone then its good enough for me!

I didnt read the book but I understood the point she was trying to get at as pointed out by JBB.

 

There comes a time when you have to step back and let the kids handle it on their own. The earlier the better. And I too feel that I became a better parent when my kids failed at one point, not that we were not there to advise, but by just asking what did you learn from what happened? That doesn't mean that we were always concerned. And its not easy letting go. My dad was a Yale engineering graduate and my brother couldnt get a sniff into MIT or Harvard or Yale, but he went to RPI and still became an engineer. He also followed the same route as my dad and let the government pay for his education (navy my dad was army), and my folks could well afford the tuition. He made it work. 

 

I think she has valid points, its about those really brilliant kids who have their folks doing the things they should be doing themselves. When I hear stories of graduates applying for jobs and the parents negotiating for them, well, as I said when do you let go?

 

Go44dad cited a great example. Letting his son figure out in 8th grade he has to be accountable will allow him to be accountable when it really is important. So letting his grades fall a bit and then having a sit down with the coach about college opportunities probably drove the point home about taking care of business on your own, good for you dad!

 

No one is telling anyone how to raise their children, but using a little common sense seems to be lacking these days, and that is not on the kids, but on the parents.

 

Lets kind of relate this to baseball, which is  a game of failure,  if you never fail at one point, you will never learn how to cope with failure and you will never learn to succeed.  

 

 

My wife is an elementary school administrator.  Her school is in an extremely wealthy area of MIami Beach.( Just for giggles, here are sale listings... http://www.zillow.com/la-gorce-miami-beach-fl/)

 

You would be amazed at the stories she brings home.  Last week she had a meeting with a parent that was concerned because her child had never received a "B" before, and perhaps there was an issue with the teacher. Her child is in FIRST GRADE.

 

The best though are the parents who will pay for a private psychological screening to show that their child is "gifted".  Because of district policy, the administrators have no choice but to place those kids in a "gifted" class. Parents are warned that the curriculum is harder, and that the students are expected to work far more independently than in regular classes.

 

Fast forward a month or so and the parents are in the office complaining about the difficulty and how their child's grades have dropped...

 

My wife's desk has a divot now from all the times she has banged her head on it.

Rob T,

Exactly why I am not teaching anymore! 

 

2020Dad - I like you're response (mostly).  Perhaps the only thing we are not eye-to-eye on is chasing the $$ as much as chasing the good person thing.  No, I'm not judging you at all, I just realized over time that while the more money we had, the more things we could do....but I'm not sure I'm any happier overall than when I had little of it.  (BTW, I started out with nothing myself - my parents weren't poor (nor rich) and we didn't ask for nor get any 'startup cash' - but we had about $50 in our bank account when we got married).

 

I guess if I had to make a choice, I'd rather my kids be good people than wealthy people.

"You don't want my money and all the headaches it brings, just stay where you are" 

I guess I can sorta see where you see this in the article...but I didn't take it that way at all.  However, given that you took it this way, I do understand your thoughts about it. 

What does all this have to do with baseball?  No different in athletics.  It is a big red button for me when the parents (who probably mean no harm) of college players talk about how hard it is to get there and we parents of young ones are dreaming.

Uh oh, I am definitely guilty of this - and you may have been referring to me(?) as one of them.  Thats ok!!  Because I certainly mean no harm.  I guess I'm just saying that yeah, its hard, really hard!  Way harder than I thought!!!!  And once you're there, its even harder to stay there!!!!!!

 

And so I guess what most of us are meaning when we say this is something like, 'don't underestimate the difficulty, don't make it the ONLY goal, don't put your son in a position to feel like he failed you if he cannot get there and don't ever let yourself feel like you messed up in case your son didn't get there.'

 

Too many parents (don't think you're one of them) act as if a) its their child's God-given destiny to get there or b) if they just practice enough, buy enough lessons, attend enough showcases and be seen enough, it will happen.

Both or either a & b could be true...I certainly wouldn't know even if I had seen anyone's son, but I certainly have known a number of parents that believed a, b (or both) and were wrong.  (I've known many who were right too!!).

 

2020Dad - I love the passion in your posts.  I have a good feeling that if we lived in the same town we would have enjoyed coaching with or against each other.  I am VERY competitive myself, as is my wife, and our kids have turned out to be so as well.  I see it as a good thing.  I think there are too many docile parents out there not teaching (or letting) their kids (learn) how to compete - they're doing everything for them.  The funny thing is that I also think the Dean was kind of making the same point in her own way.  At least thats how it struck me.

I kind of wish you were still teaching TPM, I don't think you would let the schools get away with what they are doing now.  Everything is so automated that the actual teachers aren't even aware of what the questions are on the assignments are any more.

 

Some of the happiest moments in my life happened when we were very poor.  Sometimes I wonder if being poor for awhile is actually an advantage in some ways, provided it doesn't last forever.  Can a person really understand what poverty is like if they have never experienced it?

 

When I see people on the side of the road begging, I just drive by if it is a nice day out.  Often wonder what their situation is.  A couple winters ago we were driving down the road and at was about 20 below zero and windy.  On a street corner I saw an old man and his dog with a sign asking for help.  I drive right by him as always and my wife and I started talking about this.  I said wait a minute nobody should be outdoors in this weather, the guy and his dog are going to freeze to death.  This guy might be begging, but I can't think of anything that would be harder to do than whàt he was doing.  He had to be totally desperate.  So we turned around went by the old man again and my wife gave him a hundred dollar bill and pretty much ordered him to get off the street.  He looked stunned said thank you you don't know how much this means and took off.  We felt good about it and didn't feel like what we did was stupid at all.

 

I have and I'm sure many of us have been around both rich and poor people.  I know for a fact there are very good people in both groups. And there are some very bad people in both groups.

JBB-

You're closing in on the most important point of the relationship between helicoptering parenting and sports.

 

Parents who believe sports can teach persistence through adversity, teamwork, fortitude, toughness, concentration, poise, determination and other personal traits should understand the importance of letting their kids take a few lumps as they learn to stand on their own feet.

 

However, the irony is that these parents often possess the same competitive drive they hope to instill in their children.  It's easy to lose sight of the character-building goal of sports participation, to focus on the competition rather than the ability to compete, and to succumb to the temptation of willing their kids across the finish line, becoming the helicopter parents they never intended to become.

I have been guilty of being a copter parent to a certain degree.  

Society and how it is now (zero tolerance nonsense) does factor in a bit....everything can be a worry if you let it.  It is funny and ironic that adults in society hold children to a higher standard than they hold themselves too with the zero tolerance garbage.  

My parenting mistakes were around sports a lot.  Having two boys who by nature are very mellow and laid back (and a little lazy) it would frustrate me as I would misunderstand their laid back nature for a lack of caring.  Other things I let them take control of early on, like school work.  Some mixed results but generally it was ok.  As someone else posted I know parents who do their kids work for them, not help them, but do their work for them....these are high school kids.  I know others that have gotten "learning disabilities" classification put on their kids work, so, if they fail a test for example they can retest it when there is no need for that.  My younger son has some mild dyslexia so his reading has always lagged behind.  This of course affects every aspect of school work.  He could have had the "retest" condition put on him but I opted against it.  A college professor or a boss at a job isn't going to care about it and he won't get "do-overs".  

Anyway, since some are going down memory lane, my father told me when I moved out at 17 "I don't expect you to ask for any help."  If I wanted to go to college it was on me to pay for it, it was up to me to make my own way.  My father is a good man who reasoned no one helped him and it made him tough, so, he wasn't going to help me.  Ok, that is one approach.  There is a middle ground between that approach and parents micromanaging every aspect of their kids lives.  

 

 

My first gig, second grade, a student brought me a present, marijuana, she found it on the counter at home. I did work in a very depressed part of a town in NJ, what happens to first time teachers, usually.

 

When I moved to FL, the same offer, so after I had my first child I decided to teach in private school.  I refused to enter into a system that was so behind every one else in the country, really.  I had a great group of kids, during that time there was little tolerance for children in publi cschools that were hard to handle, they all had some issues most with minor LD and I taught a combined 3-5 grade and it was fun, but the parents were over the top. Eventually they learned that they had to take a step back and stop making excuses for their children's behavior. Get help.  I think they became better parents because of it. That was always my biggest beef, the parents. Too involved or not enough involved. In my household the teacher was ALWAYS right (even if wrong I wouldn't allow my kids to have a negative attitude towards them).

In HS my son got into a ego match with his chemistry teacher. Phone call. That was that, no teacher ever had to talk make a call here again. He learned real fast about being accountable. Thats how it should be. Unless of course you have harmed my child, then you are just an unfit human to begin with.

Anyway, I became real involved with the school board after that and that seemed to work for me. 

Caco, 

Thaks for that. I feel that this countries educational system has been so poorly run over the years and glad to see that they are making states, towns, and administrations as well as teachers accountable. Failing  schools here are now B schools and C schools are A schools. While I realize that is based on test scores, that is a measure that there is some good stuff going on.  And most teachers do complain that they don't really teach anymore, but have to teach whats on the tests, and I am not so sure that is a bad thing because most of them really don't know how to teach anyway. Just such a shortage of really good teachers in this country because of lack of salary and cut benefits.  

 

As far as PG's comments, I happen to live in a very diverse area of south florida with lots of money and lots of the opposite as well.  Trust me, money doesn't bring happiness. Just a bunch of spoiled troubled teens driving their Mercedes, Lexus and Range Rovers to school and doing drugs on the weekends. This isnt new, my cousin was a heroine addict in HS as were some adults that I know from HS, and that isn't uncommon in a certain neighborhood close by. She died this year, very sad even after the best care possible.

 

But this isnt about that, this is about being the best parent you can be while teaching your children to be accountable when they become adults. FWIW, the first thing that college coach teach is just that, being accountable for what you do on the field yeilds positive results for you and your team, so much of this really ties into being a better sport parent as well.  

 

I always havent been a good parent i am sure in my kids eyes.  In fact my daughter hated me until she was an adult.  Its not easy to watch your kids have a lot of heart ache and failure, but they are good kids and they are accountable for themselves as adults and who they are because of what they have learned along the way. I have so many friends whose kids are struggling as adults, they just never let them fail when they were younger and always there to pick up the pieces after the fall. Not that I still dont freak out occasionally but its all good.

 

If people don't want to hear what others have to offer from experience, then what are we really here for? I have grown kids but I am still learning about being a better parent everyday!

 

JMO

 

Just BB I bet we would have enjoyed coaching together.  And calming down and getting back to OP...  I am not even sure what it means to be a helicopter parent.  But pretty sure I am not it.  Don't do my kids homework (I rarely did my own!).  My son going into Catholic High school is going to work there full time all summer as part of their work program to reduce tuition.  My son complains that I don't take him to the facility enough not me pushing him.  He has no issue walking to the games that are home games.  No problem paying for baseball stuff he wants from his sandwich bag dull of money he has gotten for xmas bdays etc.  Wants to get a job the instant he turns 15.  My oldest worked extremely hard for her academic full ride.  My second oldest is well on her way t o academic money.  My fourth works his tail off to be the #1 distance swimmer in the state - which earned him an introduction to an old classmate who was a distance olympian - coincidentally a Stanford grad!  My last (7 yrs old) we will give just a few more years!  All that having been said I am demanding and I am relentless in drilling into my children's head what life is all about (and yes we all have different opinions about this I am sure).  If I am guilty of anything it is using the term we.  Family togetherness and an all for one one for all attitude is central to my core beliefs.  What was the line of wyatt earps (too lazy to look up spelling) father "blood is blood and everybody else is just a stranger".

Another perspective.

"'Helicopter Parenting' Hysteria: The Epidemic That Actually Isn't"

 

http://www.alfiekohn.org/article/hp/

[Format edited by moderator]

^^^ (PS: I could not figure out how to make the text smaller. My apologies.) ^^^

Since my son entered college this fall he has had to remind mom multiple times he is not going to come hang out at home, and that he is very involved at school with alot of things.

I always wait anxiously to hear the latest story about baseball, but honestly he texts me more often bragging about his biology and chemistry scores for premed.  Glad he is taking his studies so serious, without any puah from us

Ltll be fun and interesting to see how things go in his first college season this spring

...guess this thread now should be under 2020dad's mythbusting thread.

I would say that whether it is a myth or not - that many college coaches look for signs of it and most will try to avoid it.

 

Of course, if your son throws 95 with command of 3 pitches, they may not care if you move into the dorm with him.

 

(BTW, I'll stick to my view that it most definitely exists and that I have more examples than the one I cited above.  Damaging?  A reasonable argument could be made either way I suppose.  Pervasive?  I wouldn't know, but it is out there, no question).

JB, of course it exists.  

 

Just to be sure I didn't drift, I went back to the original article.  It said HP is ruining a generation of kids.  I doubt it.  Just like The Who sang, the kids are alright.

 

I went to my kids school last year to be a "Shark Tank Judge" for audio/visual history projects.  Some kids presentations were so slick and multi media they looked like they were a pitch by Manhattan advertising agencies.  Felt sorry for the kids who clearly did their own work, but only briefly.  They probably learned more.

I attended a local program last month at a high school where Julie presented. She is fabulous!.  Other panel members included a child psychiatrist and the Mother of a young man who was extremely high achieving up to the day he committed suicide by walking in front of a speeding commute train.  The group of nearly 450 parents in attendance probably included a number who interact with their children, teachers, etc in ways very similar to the very pertinent  post from Rob T.   While the program made many in the audience quite obviously uncomfortable, so did the recognition of a Mother with the courage to stand before them, to talk about her son, to talk about his suicide, and to talk about how some, even now, question why he would take his life when he was "doing so well as such a great HS."

In our area, we have parents trying to get their children registered at the very best grade schools, when the child is 6 months old. They already have Harvard and Stanford as their child's future.  They won't take wait or take no for an answer. If they don't get their way, they "use" their "poor" child and how the actions of others, like Rob T's wife,  to communicate very loudly how the child is  devastated.  Many also use their vast amounts of wealth as a power to remove anything, and sometimes anyone (i.e. teacher)  which gets in their way.

Personally, none of us will parent like Julie, who has very much changed her approach to parenting her children away fromm her own experience, based on her experiences and learning as the freshman dean at Stanford.  I can guess that  justbaseball did not post the article for any reason other  than to allow all of us an opportunity for consideration of various perspectives.  Articles from very thoughtful folks like Julie sharing their experiences will, hopefully, allow us to consider other options and to look at different perspectives, especially the perspective of the child we are parenting.

Just me, but I find it very hard to understand how the thoughts can be so easily dismissed, especially when the answers won't be known for years into the future.

Put into an athletic model, there have been many, many threads on the HSBBW that one main reason players end up "failing" at the college level is they are not mentally prepared to fail and to adjust to that failure, because they never had to before college.

In some important ways, that mirrors the message Julie is communicating.

If we truly ascribe to the baseball is life concept, Julie's message seems to be a powerful one to capture and appreciate and consider, rather than to be dismissed as some attack to be taken personally.

 

This web site immediately published an article about other types of parents:

 

https://www.admitsee.com/blog/...95690dc4ea-210495249

 

1. The Astronaut Parent: These parents are literally never around, like they’re out in space.

2. The Curling Parent: Probably the most common, these types of parents give a gentle push, and then sweep the way for their children to succeed.

3. The Helicopter Parent: The most well-known, this parent is always hovering, arguing with teachers and coaches on behalf of their child.

4. The Lawnmower Parent: The most extreme of the bunch, they don’t even leave room for hovering. Instead, they’re on their child, pushing, pushing, pushing…

 

 

You're reading her (and the Harvard article if you read it) the wrong way, I think.  The intended  message is not  "stay where you are."   It's not telling you or your kids not to work hard.  It's not telling you not to invest in the education of your kids.    It's not telling you that Stanford/Harvard is completely unattainable so forget about it.   (Actually elite universities in recent years have made HUGE strides in making themselves more accessible. They've raised millions and millions of dollars in endowment so that they can make family finances almost no barrier to affordability.)   

 

It's trying to tell you that Stanford is not the brass ring.  It's trying to give some advice on how to raise not just materially successful but emotionally whole adults. That's   because elite universities have seen close up what is happening to an alarming number of these students.  And they are trying to find ways to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.   It is a serious challenge for them.  Since so many want to come through their doors in the belief that they are exactly the brass ring or at least a ladder placed right up against the brass ring.

 

They also want parents to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. 

 

I'll give you one small example of what I am thinking about.  When I was a kid, and maybe when you were too,  good high schools offered maybe  one or two AP courses.  The best students took them, mostly during senior year.  There are kids now a days who start taking AP courses during sophomore or junior year.  Kids who graduate with 9,10, 11 AP courses to their  credit.  

 

Ask yourself why that is.   Do they do this because they are brilliant and ready to start taking a college load as juniors?   Some probably are like that, but most are not.  They do it because they think it will give them a leg up in the college rat race.  Where do they get this idea.   In part the colleges are to blame.  But so are  parents, high school guidance counselors and also private, for pay  counselors -- can't leave them out.   These kids are push and pushed told to speed up by so many voices.  A good number of students actually struggle mightily in these course.   And frankly, I suspect that many of these courses are not taught nearly as well as they would be at a strong university.   Not trying to knock HS teachers in saying this. 

 

Do you think college and universities WANT students to have 9 or 10 AP courses?  Not really.  They tend to think that students would be better off taking many of these courses from college level faculty.  Not that they are totally against AP course - -they do give credit for it, after all.  But where does the relentless pressure for more and more AP come from.   Lots of places -- including parents, but also teachers, and counselors, as I've already mentioned, but also school boards, chasing that designation as a top performing school.  

 

Nobody stops and thinks about the overall effect of this speed up on the kids.  Universities are trying to figure out ways to give students clearer signals of what they are about, what it takes to succeed in them.   

 

One of the things they want kids and parents to do is to give kids more space to develop their own, authentic selves and not merely to be resume builders and super driven over achievers.  They want kids to be given space to  develop genuine passions that fit into a whole self, not just a self focused on grabbing the brass ring of prestige.  

 

Students and their parents vastly overestimate the marginal benefit of a little bit more prestige in a university education.  They are so, so consumed with finding the right school, etc, etc.   It needs to calm down.  It's chewing up these kids.    Hard for universities to play a role in calming it down, but they really are trying. 

 

It's very tricky because one of the things is that as we have become more of meritocracy -- so that family connections and all that have less to do with where you go to college than they once did --- parents -- especially middle,  upper middle class and wealth parents  (with more of this happening as you move up the income scale) have devoted their resources to making their kids have more merit -- thus the SAT cram courses, the personal trainers.   It's not like parents are being unreasonable in taking this approach.   But it has unexpected costs.   And the unexpected costs are very steep.  The dean has seen the cost very, very up close and rightly wants to try to alert parents and their children to some of that. 

 

 

 

       
       
Leave room for one more - the self righteous parent, the one who makes up these labels for everybody else while their way is the only true 'right way'.  I am probably in the triple digits now for saying this one, live and let live.  I truly and honestly respect everyone's right to their own value system.  Don't agree with some but that's a them issue not a me issue.  I stick to what I can control within my own family.  As for the author of the original article as I said originally I will take a pass on anything she has to stay and stick with my current core values.

Excellent explanation, SluggerDad.  Thanks.

 

It's crazy out there.  Families and kids are getting increasingly obsessed with the process and doing crazy stuff.   No big surprise that some of the saddest and craziest has happened right there in Stanford's backyard.

 

I really have no idea what the answer is except to channel Malcolm Gladwell and keep reminding my kids that what matters is what they do in college not where they go.

 

But it's hard to let go!  While 2015 is off to UC and doing well (at least I assume he is - I'm not a college helicopter parent)  2017's 1st quarter report card came home with 3 B+'s and I have to find a non-confrontational way of telling him that there's absolutely no point in getting a B+ in anything.  Either relax and get a B, or push through and get that A.

Well, that's 4 types that "Ruin College Admissions".  What about the OTHER types, like those who are indeed helpful?  Those 4 just don't cover the spectrum, does it? 

I'm just skeptical anytime anybody yells crisis, then backs it up with anecdotal third party stories.  It's easy to be a pessimist.  The media loves stories about how bad things are now, and how good things used to be.  So helicopter parents are ruining a generation?  Who's to say the current generation of kids aren't the happiest ever?

 

As the Rolling Stones said, "Hey! You! Get off of my cloud!"

It's not anecdotes.  Julie Lythcott-Haims was the dean of Freshman  (among other things) at Stanford for many years.  She had her fingers on a wealth of data about Stanford Freshman.  By many, many measures Stanford freshman are a remarkable bunch.  But there is concrete data about their overall well-being that would trouble any thoughtful person.   There are similar data from other elite universities.  

...a few stanford parents calling an assistant dean to complain are not evidence of a ruining of a generation.  And that was the title of the article.  That's truly the tail, and it's not wagging the dog.

 

We are living in the greatest time ever in human history.

 

But I appreciate your view.  

 

With my thumb and fore finger pinching my nose, "Go Royals".

that's not her evidence base.  Though the interview doesn't reproduce the stats,  it does make reference to them:

 

She cites reams of statistics on the rise of depression and other mental and emotional health problems among the nation’s young people.

 

Believe me there is a real problem here and MANY informed people are concerned. 

Julie is writing from the perspective of the former Freshman Dean of Students and her first hand experience with a number of them, and their parents.  As I referenced above and posted in a similar earlier thread on the HSBBW, we have a suicide cluster of extremely high achieving HS students in our area.  Most have walked on the tracks and stood in front of a speeding commuter train. 

I don't think most of what Julie is speaking to would properly be referenced as "Anecdotal third party stories?"  Julie is  writing and speaking mostly from her personal interactions at Stanford.

During the course of the discussion, information came from one student source who wanted his Dad to stop..."providing him daily updates on his chances and odds of admission to Stanford, Harvard, and Yale." Daily updates and updated odds and chances were making him anxious, upset and completely turned off to the message and especially to his Dad. Not much third party at all in much of what I know about Julie and her perspectives.

I think Rob T's post captures some of what Julie is referencing and does it so vividly.  No one is saying this is a one size fits all.

infield and slugger,

 

I'm not denying there are issues, but "ruining a generation" is absurd.  Our kids are growing up in the best time ever in human history.

There's a really interesting book called, "The Happiness Advantage" that examines, among other things, the neuroscience behind what's happening in the brains of people who report being happy (or not). One telling anecdote is about a study done of newly admitted Harvard freshmen. They were surveyed after acceptance (but before matriculation) about their happiness and satisfaction levels, and again after the end of their first semester. As you might guess, happiness levels started sky high and then plummeted. To get into Harvard, these kids had never been anything but first in their class, all-everything, kings and queens of their secondary schools, and they had gotten into HARVARD. After a semester, half of them were below average and someone was last in the class.

 

It surprises me not at all that schools like Stanford and Harvard see astronomical rates of depression among their student body, freshmen in particular. I have no doubt that there are Helicopter, Curling, and Lawnmower parents to share the blame. And there are probably more of them than in previous generations because of the American Dream becoming further out of reach, more immigration from countries with higher expectations of their children, etc. But I think "ruining a generation" is a bit over the top, although the article will get more reads with that headline. I'm pretty impressed with the young people I know and the ones I read about. Most of these kids are well aware that there is no single "brass ring"; shame on those parents and counselors who try to convince them there is.

  Excellent post.

 

There's a new and growing field of psychology called affective forecasting.  In general,  people are very, very bad at knowing what will make them happy in the future.   So a student prior getting into Harvard, predicting how happy they will be once they do get into Harvard, will often turn out to be way off base.  In general,  humans tend to significantly overestimate how happy getting what they most want will make them. 

 

On another note,  headline writers are paid to write headlines that attract readers, not necessarily headlines that accurately reflect the content of the relevant article.  

 

The mismatch between headline and content can sometimes be amazing. 

 

Still,  I stand by the point that the former dean knows whereof she speaks.   

2020dad, I think you an I grew up much in a similar environment with many of the same experiences.  Me?... steel mill town going silent with devastating affect on the community.  You are clearly doing some remarkable things with the successes your kids are having.  I know you are a strong believer in "live and let live".  I know you are set on your principals and don't like to be told that anything different may hold some value to you.  I kinda get your thought process and agree with a lot of things you say.  But I am going to present a few thoughts for consideration....

 

You quoted a few things that you largely live by...

 

"everything you need to know in life can be learned from the godfather "I lived my life, and I don't apologize, to take care of my family"  If its good enough for Vito Corleone then its good enough for me! "

 

Well, for one, the godfather lived his life and acquired his fortunes largely via guiltless murdering of others.  Just maybe he took the "take care of your own" mantra too far?  (OK, maybe a bit dramatic.  Stay with me.  I will add, however, that my steel mill town was also a mafia town so I'm not completely "unfamiliar".)

 

and...

 

"What was the line of wyatt earps (too lazy to look up spelling) father "blood is blood and everybody else is just a stranger". "

 

I just finished a lengthy program focused on budgeting and building wealth.  Toward the end, the speaker threw out several case studies that focused on what makes wealthy people the most happy.  These were well documented numbers and information I had heard many times before.  Yes, it is important that they gain financial security for their family.  But the thing that makes them most happy is the ability to turn around and give back to strangers who are in need...  

 

I agree with Sluggerdad's quote...

"You're reading her (and the Harvard article if you read it) the wrong way, I think.  The intended  message is not  "stay where you are."   It's not telling you or your kids not to work hard." 

 

I think, similarly, you read us the wrong way when we state how difficult it is to make it into a college baseball program.  We don't want readers to fold up tent and stay where they are.  We want them to go full speed ahead, armed with the information they need and the realization that it will take serious effort and focus of purpose.

 

 

Nice post cabbagedad.

a thought on where she is coming from to get that perspective...

 

A good friend of mine was the chancellor at a nearby college, and he and I would get together for lunch every 3 or 4 months. Our conversations usually started with me asking "how many"... he always knew exactly what I was asking.  He would pause to collect himself before telling me how many parents he'd now had to call to break the news that their entire world had just committed suicide on his watch. He had a pretty rough time at my school, but nothing affected him like that. It was a crushing responsibility.

hitting a round ball with a round bat is easy compared to that...

Cabbage as always respect all viewpoints.  But I take in good humor your comments regarding my affection for the godfather.  While I do love the trilogy clearly I am not in favor of murder and crime.  And as I said previously if my children do become wealthy I expect them to be charitable and lend a helping hand to others.  So I agree not only can it be rewarding for the wealthy but really should be almost a responsibility.  Everyone here should know though I rarely take anything personally and I very rarely mean anything personally.  I love a good debate but hate when it gets personal.  So no worries when anyone here disagrees with me or shares their views with me.

Thanks 2020, yeah, of course the godfather comment was meant with some degree of tongue-in-cheek humor.  I did not pick up on any comment from you earlier in the thread that addressed the charitable aspect.  So, I went back and looked and sure enough, I had misread a statement you made in that regard.

___________________________

And today he'd be arrested for child abuse for feeding his kids gluten

I don't see it that she says Harvard/Stanford is good for her but not others.

 

She laments the trend of kids going through life stuck living their parents' dreams, and warns of the preponderance of parents who are fighting kid's battles, writing their papers and basically never allowing them to grow up a learn to stand on their own two feet.  I am sure she got a bit sick of seeing these great looking applicants show up on campus looking nothing like the confident and independent young adult that their admissions essay painted them to be.  

 

A kid who can't speak for his or her self (admissions essay), communicate effectively (term papers), manage their own time (getting homework completed) is going to have a very, very tough time in life.   In fact, they may be better off in the long run if they struggle and get into "Ole State U." than are handheld into Vandy.

 

Top-tier schools can be great, but get in there on your own merit and go because you want to and not because mom and dad want the bumper-sticker. 

 

In summary, I would imagine that the author had to earn her own way into Stanford and Harvard.  She supports those who do likewise and discourages those who are being dragged along on their parents' coattails. 

You see it one way I see it another.  That's the beauty of america, we have a right to disagree.  I remain firmly in opposition to her elitist views and attitude.  Of course that is my opinion as your viewpoint is also an opinion.  I respect your right to have one.

But i don't see where you get that her views are elitist.  Seems like  a projection of some issue of yours onto her and a pretty unfair projection at that.

This observation from the article jumped out at me:

 

Check your language. “If you say ‘we’ when you mean your son or your daughter — as in, ‘We’re on the travel soccer team’ — it’s a hint to yourself that you are intertwined in a way that is unhealthy.”

 

A whole lot of parents here do this. And while I'd edit the statement to say it's a hint that you may be intertwined in a way that is unhealthy -- it's still interesting. 

 

It's also an expression  HSBBW parents whose sons are in college or higher seldom use.

+1

 

The issues in modern American society are a little more than anecdotal, as someone has suggested.  Parents vicariously living through kids is "crampant" as Chickenman would say.

 

We have little leagues where a kid who throws 40 isn't allowed to play because he's too fast and other kids get their feelings hurt because they aren't successful.  The problem is not the kids and their feelings getting hurt.  They get over it.  Just like we did.  The problem is the parents and grandparents and their feelings getting hurt.  Junior strikes out every time and sad mommy and grandma tell him he's wonderful and can be whatever he wants to be.   Junior needs to hear the truth a little more.

Teaching elder, stories don't get any more anecdotal than above.  

       
       
And???  This is significant because?

Okay.  Then what is it that you would like?

I tried to be nice and just say we all have our own opinions...  I really don't like being told I am 'projecting'.  And though I am no expert in these matters wouldn't that mean taking your own issues and purporting them to be another's?  So that would mean I am really elitist and 'projecting' that onto her?  Not sure how I am elitist...  but whatever.  Bottom line is I don't care for her views.  You do.  I do not criticize you for supporting her, why would you criticize me for being her detractor?  I don't like her tone.  I am very comfortable with that.

Facts, something other than a made up story about johnny at little league or that "a whole generation is ruined by parents" story by an assistant dean at Stanford based on her view of incoming Stanford freshman.

 

We live in the greatest time ever for humans on earth.  We are happier, healthier, richer, have more leisure time and a longer life expectancy than anytime in history.  

 

Here an example:  An average american retires at 62.  A hundred years ago the average american died at 51.

Well...since you mentioned elitist.  I see where you decry elitism in the case of the author's personality, but in other places you have stated that you essentially are striving for elitism yourself.   You want to be the rich guy.  You say "Money does buy happiness."  You want to provide perks for your kids that others don't necessarily get, e.g., respect for money and knowledge of how to get and hold money.  You also want your kids one day to be sitting around the table after golf complaining about how bad it is to own the business... like the elitists do.   I am a bit curious as to how you justify the two contrary positions.

I saw a car commercial last night, kid was maybe 8 or 9, dad is walking his little football player back to the car thinking in his head "Participant, why does the trophy say participant, his team beat all the other teams, why does he HAVE to get the same trophy as everyone else?"

 

Father flicked off the plate that said "participant" and wrote in black sharpie "CHAMPS"

Now THAT's elitist.

One more thing on the 'we' thing...  This is a text I received from one of my former players.

Mr P
it was so great seeing you and meeting the family!!
Anytime you guys can make a game in (mlb city deleted for privacy) please let me know!  Great seeing you coach, we made it!

I can not tell you how moving it was for me that his time in our program meant so much to him that he included me in his success.  Obviously the success is all his.  And I do understand the statement would be different were it I using the 'we' but bottom line is being part of something larger than yourself is lauded in so many ways...  It's not wrong or unhealthy to work together as a we to achieve a goal.  'We' just all have different ways of expressing ourselves.  Not right or wrong just different.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...-kids_n_3472719.html

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/4556...-young/#.VjO8Uy-FPIU

 

 

http://www.askcoachwolff.com/2...concern-and-growing/

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.../03/100310083443.htm

 

http://www.athleticbusiness.co...ning-popularity.html

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/.../06/schools.children

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/com...o-much-pressure.html

 

This one ought to give you a great primer on the growth of parental oppressiveness.  Hint, it started in the 1960s with the Self-Esteem movement.

http://www.theatlantic.com/edu...an-childhood/279868/

. 

 

Here are a few articles for you to look at. But, I would not be so quick to just casually sweep away the ever increasing reports by school administrators, sports coaches, psychologists and even orthopedic surgeons telling us that there are a lot of parents out there who are just ridiculous.  They are in positions to observe and experience not only numerous cases, but to also get a sense of various changes that have occured over time. They are in a very good position to offer far more than anecdotal thoughts.  

 

You can't tell me you haven't run across this change yourself.    Yesterday's parent at the Little League game whom the other parents sort of laughed at with others behind their back are today's common parent.

 

P.s.

 

As to children today being the happiest generation, the matter is highly debatable.

Ok TE, you win. I'm unplugging. I'm selling my house, pulling my kids out of school and going to live off the grid in the desert.  No more school, sports, band, ipads, cell phones for my kids.  Too much pressure.  Going to drink from the spring and hunt my food.  No more immunizations, doctors and that crazy stuff. Also going to liquidate my retirement, give it to Huffington Post b/c they tell it straight.

 

Guess what I'm really wishing for is the good old days when all I had to worry about was my kids getting polio or influenza, starving, wife dying from child birth, war, infant mortality and all the simple things in life.  Ahh the good old days.

       
       
Its really hard to know when to let go of these threads...  probably should have already, this is going in an uncomfortable direction.  Notice though I have not yet personally insulted you or your opinions?  I really try hard on here to debate and disagree without bashing or insulting others.  Your name is teaching elder.  Don't obviously know but guessing you may be a teacher?  Me too.  I would like to think we are open minded people.  Not sure why one of us has to be right and one of us has to be wrong.  Respecting differences?  But though I have tried to just say we have different opinions and that's ok you seem bent on not leaving it at that.  Why?  So here goes.  I never said or implied I want to be elite.  I also did not imply that I want to have tons of money in fact I alluded to the fact its a little late in the game for me.  Yes I have hopes my children will be wealthy and have a secure life - does that somehow make me odd?  And I went out of my way to emphasize and re-emphasize I would hope my children would also be charitable.  Wealth is a matter of dollars and cents.  Elitism is a matter of attitude please do not confuse the two.  I am not and have no desire to be elitist and I certainly would hope for better from my children.  So I have to ask you elder, why such an ax to grind?

Ha ha. No. A Teaching Elder is another word for a pastor in the Presbyterian church. 

Anyway, I am inclined to at least drop our part of the conversation as well.  However, I will say that this is a conversation board. People share opinions and ideas. If your idea strikes some as off base, you likely will hear something about it. That doesn't make them closed minded any more than your original comments were closed minded.  It's just opinion.

Anyway, best to you and your family.  Sounds like most of them are doing pretty well from your comments.