Obviously every level a player moves up the game gets more challenging. Brendan McKay was a great college two way player at Louisville. The Tampa organization has allowed him to continue to be a two way. If you look at his stats his hitting is obviously suffering at the pro level. When he was called up it was obviously for his pitching ability. He’s now out for the season with an arm injury. Hopefully it isn’t a case of hitting time interfering with arm physical development time.
Sean Doolittle pitched and played position in college. He is now a pitcher for the Reds, but drafted by the Athletics in 2007 as a first baseman and outfielder.
Go figure......
I think the "if only some of these kids were given a chance" thought process is a pie in the sky. Which levels of baseball provide safe zones where winning isn't the most important thing and coaches/staff can afford to experiment and take unnecessary risks?
Here's another way to think about it. How many position players used to be really good pitchers? Is the current system squandering additional pitchers in the same manner they're missing out on additional hitters?
Short stops usually become PO.
Interesting discussion. I have no actual experience or expertise but that seldom slows me down.
Seth played SS, catcher, 3b and pitcher in HS. Never left a game. Minnesota is asking him to try 2 way. I fully expect that to last a few weeks in the Fall.
My rationale goes like this:
1. I want him to study vs live at the practice facility
2. Sorry but D1 is just different
3. And no one has discussed this but I keep stats on him. He hit significantly better when playing a POS vs days he pitches. Now in fairness he only pitches vs the best teams on our schedule. But I believe there is only so much focus and using it as pitcher is where it has to be.
We will find out shortly as he starts in several weeks.
@Good Knight posted:Interesting discussion. I have no actual experience or expertise but that seldom slows me down.
Seth played SS, catcher, 3b and pitcher in HS. Never left a game. Minnesota is asking him to try 2 way. I fully expect that to last a few weeks in the Fall.
My rationale goes like this:
1. I want him to study vs live at the practice facility
2. Sorry but D1 is just different
3. And no one has discussed this but I keep stats on him. He hit significantly better when playing a POS vs days he pitches. Now in fairness he only pitches vs the best teams on our schedule. But I believe there is only so much focus and using it as pitcher is where it has to be.
We will find out shortly as he starts in several weeks.
I was a reluctant pitcher in high school. I was too good not to pitch. I pitched some out of the pen freshman year in college (D1). But in Legion ball we were so loaded with pitching I told the coach I won’t reject the ball. But I didn’t care if I pitched. I didn’t want to be tired for hitting and running the bases.
Freshman year of college I drove teammates and coaches nuts in the dugout and in the pen. I wasn’t accustomed to not being in the game. I did learn how to juggle all kinds of stuff.
Ironically, one of the two times I went 5-5 in my life one of them was while pitching a no hitter in high school.
A competitive HS and College Coach will use all his weapons. The Coach will know the strengths and weakness of his players. He has the scorebook to reveal the players ability's.
1. My favorite is RBI's per at bats.
#2 what role in the lineup is the player successful.
#3 Is the hitting pitcher superior to a position player in "on base" %.
#4 can the "hitting pitcher" receive the necessary hitting instruction to be productive.
#5 Shortstops should not pitch [different arm angle] and when he pitches you have the #two SS and one error will add 5-8 pitches to the inning adding to the total pitch count.
Bob
I find Game Changer run by the HS Varsity Team Mom to be the most accurate stats when deciding how good a player is.
@Consultant posted:A competitive HS and College Coach will use all his weapons. The Coach will know the strengths and weakness of his players. He has the scorebook to reveal the players ability's.
1. My favorite is RBI's per at bats.
#2 what role in the lineup is the player successful.
#3 Is the hitting pitcher superior to a position player in "on base" %.
#4 can the "hitting pitcher" receive the necessary hitting instruction to be productive.
#5 Shortstops should not pitch [different arm angle] and when he pitches you have the #two SS and one error will add 5-8 pitches to the inning adding to the total pitch count.
Bob
Bob,
Curious as to why RBI's per AB is your favorite and what would a good number be? I know why I like this number and what I think it tells me but very interested in your perspective. I like it because it tells me that a player has both an ability to come through when needed and understands situational hitting. I realize that it can be overstated some by level of competition but the overstatement lessens as you move from travel to HS and HS to college etc...I hope you get a chance to answer...thanks...
LaunchAngle
You are correct in the reason for measurement of RBI per at bat. It is a tool for arranging the batting lineup. one in 6 ab's is good for the #3,#4, #5 hitters and #6.
My #1 and #2 and #9 need a high "on base" %. Every 3rd game I flip #1 and #9 hitters.
Game practice will include the objectives of moving runners to scoring position. There are 11 ways to score the runner from 3b with less than 2 outs.
Bob
@Consultant posted:LaunchAngle
You are correct in the reason for measurement of RBI per at bat. It is a tool for arranging the batting lineup. one in 6 ab's is good for the #3,#4, #5 hitters and #6.
My #1 and #2 and #9 need a high "on base" %. Every 3rd game I flip #1 and #9 hitters.
Game practice will include the objectives of moving runners to scoring position. There are 11 ways to score the runner from 3b with less than 2 outs.
Bob
I can get 8 of the 11...... *Assuming bases-loaded or one on, can get to 12.
@Consultant posted:LaunchAngle
You are correct in the reason for measurement of RBI per at bat. It is a tool for arranging the batting lineup. one in 6 ab's is good for the #3,#4, #5 hitters and #6.
My #1 and #2 and #9 need a high "on base" %. Every 3rd game I flip #1 and #9 hitters.
Game practice will include the objectives of moving runners to scoring position. There are 11 ways to score the runner from 3b with less than 2 outs.
Bob
Had not thought about this in terms of setting a lineup. Which brings be discussion I had with my sons both the one still playing and his brothers regarding the following scenario that happened this past season.
Son is a D2 player that hit most of season in 3 hole and averaged 1 RBI per 2.8 ABs. The leadoff hitter was injured about 2/3 through the season. The coach moved son to leadoff:
His brothers perspective: Why in the he!! would the coach take a player who is producing like that out of the 3 hole and move him to leadoff and give him 1 dry AB every game.
My perspective: the coach had just lost one of his most productive hitters and was trying to compensate by getting one of his better hitters as many ABs per game/remainder of the season has he could.
I don't think either perspective is wrong. I am curious which way you would lean given this scenario.
@Good Knight posted:1. I want him to study vs live at the practice facility.
FYI, as an NCAA first year D1 athlete he will have daily study hall (5 days) through first semester. Second semester depends on how he does the first.
Hours at the field, workouts, instruction, then practice are determined by the coaching staff.
Launchangle;
every coach has a goal and reason. one Rbi for each 3 at bat is very good. It may depend on the "on base %" for the #8 and #9 hitters. #3 hitter is good for your son. Is he a left handed hitter?
Bob
@Consultant posted:Launchangle;
every coach has a goal and reason. one Rbi for each 3 at bat is very good. It may depend on the "on base %" for the #8 and #9 hitters. #3 hitter is good for your son. Is he a left handed hitter?
Bob
Yes.. lefty swinger...throws right...plays outfield...fairly common story:
- D1 out of HS - Redshirted - Invited to seek a juco
- Goes to juco - plays way onto field at talented juco - covid hits
- He / we can't afford to spend 3rd year at juco just for baseball and not progressing on education
- Limited market (learned that from another great post on here)
- Goes to D2 - power shows up - breakout season
Launch;
is your son playing on a Summer College team? Is the D-2 school in Texas?
Bob
@LaunchAngle posted:Yes.. lefty swinger...throws right...plays outfield...fairly common story:
- D1 out of HS - Redshirted - Invited to seek a juco
- Goes to juco - plays way onto field at talented juco - covid hits
- He / we can't afford to spend 3rd year at juco just for baseball and not progressing on education
- Limited market (learned that from another great post on here)
- Goes to D2 - power shows up - breakout season
That blueprint is becoming more and more common - with one exception which speaks to the perseverance of your son. Many kids can’t/don’t/won’t accept that fate and make the most of it. Congrats to your son for being one of those that did!
@Good Knight posted:Interesting discussion.
Agree. Thanks.
@JCG posted:I think this is possible that’s where MLB is headed, though eliminating the DH in the NL will make it less likely.
I agree. Have a feeling we’ll start seeing more two-ways in the next few years.
@PTWood posted:@DD 2024 I am not super familiar with the NPB league. Are there a lot more two-way players in Japan than in the US?
It looks roughly equal all time in NPB/JBL vs MLB vs Negro Leagues, although almost most of the MLB two-ways played 80-100 years ago, with Lorenzen and Ankiel the notable exceptions.
I asked Josh Herzenberg if there were 2 way players in the KBO. There are converted players but no 2 way players at this time.
In Japan HS baseball there is NO DH for the pitcher. He will hit #9, be assign #1 and will often "bunt".
Ichiro was a pitcher in HS baseball. Very strong arm. In Japan Pro baseball he was "hitter" only. IN Mariners Spring Training, I watched Edgar use the pitching machine at 110 mph for "tracking". Ichiro was actually hitting the 110 mph.
Bob
Thanks Bob. So if that's the case, then it does seem as though the U.S. could be missing out on some 2-ways in the making. It will be interesting to see what happens with it.
Interestingly (and sorry if I already told this story)...James hit 90 at a couple of PBR events and sat mid to upper 80s when he was pulled in to pitch when his HS travel team ran out of pitchers his freshman and sophomore year without any real training as a pitcher. Worse, for him, his body screams pitcher. Several P5 schools recruited him as a 2-way but he was very concerned that he would end up being pigeon-holed as a pitcher and he never liked pitching. It goes back to what TPM said...there are hitters who could pitch or pitchers who can hit. There are very few who are both but it would be great if we could figure out a way to nurture those that are...
PTWood:
Your son's ability to do both (if he wants to) will depend on his skills relative to both positions vs the other players on the team/conference. Sooo if he steps down from a P5 to a "lower level" program he would likely have more opportunity to do both. My son ended up at a D3 and pitched and hit during his freshman year, hit only in his Soph. During his Jr year he had earned a starting slot in the OF, but broke his thumb early in the season (glove side) so he started pitching again, given the healing time would have prevented him getting back in shape and on the field, then in his Sr year he pitched only. Could he have done that at a more competitive D1, not likely from a athletic standpoint, and certainly not given his major. (STEM).
@BOF I totally agree. In my son's case, he had no desire to pitch and assumed that those schools that were recruiting him as a 2-way would eventually push him to pitching (he was 6'5" at the time) so he leaned toward the schools recruiting him as a position player.
The opportunity to "hit" and "pitch" depends on the Coaches objectives and philosophy. Winning coaches will use all his assets.
Mental preparation and practice is the key to success. It less stress for a pitcher/hitter to be a relief pitcher. LF/DH are the best position for the hitting pitcher.
Bob
Mental preparation and practice is the key to success. It less stress for a pitcher/hitter to be a relief pitcher. LF/DH are the best position for the hitting pitcher.
Bob
@DD 2024 posted:I agree. Have a feeling we’ll start seeing more two-ways in the next few years.
Guess what! I found a 2 way player on the roster at UF! I would bet they are not the only big program who has a 2 way guy.
I have a friend who owns a training facility and you know what, there are a boat load of next generation kids who will be 2 way players!
@Consultant posted:
Mental preparation and practice is the key to success. It less stress for a pitcher/hitter to be a relief pitcher. LF/DH are the best position for the hitting pitcher.I could not agree more. I first noticed when keeping Seths stats. He hit much better when playing SS than when he was pitching. I think the mental focus is just too much when pitching to concentrate on hitting. And a lot of SS throws are just another pitch. Pretty exhausting mentally.
@TPM posted:Guess what! I found a 2 way player on the roster at UF! I would bet they are not the only big program who has a 2 way guy.
I have a friend who owns a training facility and you know what, there are a boat load of next generation kids who will be 2 way players!
Yes, I too am sensing it's an emerging trend. Thanks for the input.
See a connection?
2018 - 52 IP, 4.10 ERA, 15 AB
2019 - 25 IP, 5.76 ERA, 53AB
2020 - 4 IP, 6.23 ERA, 42 AB (17G season, 138 AB projected 56G)
2021 - 7 IP, 7.71 ERA, 145 AB
@RJM posted:See a connection?
2018 - 52 IP, 4.10 ERA, 15 AB
2019 - 25 IP, 5.76 ERA, 53AB
2020 - 4 IP, 6.23 ERA, 42 AB (17G season, 138 AB projected 56G)
2021 - 7 IP, 7.71 ERA, 145 AB
And your point is? I see someone who for 4 years has pitched and played an actual position, not DH.
Two way players exist in college baseball, not just in D3. I have seen quite a few over the years. D1,D2. No, you aren't going to find another Shohei Ohtani, who actually isn't a two way position player IMO, but just an AL pitcher who hits.
As someone pointed out, is this about college baseball or Major League baseball..
JMO
@TPM posted:Guess what! I found a 2 way player on the roster at UF! I would bet they are not the only big program who has a 2 way guy.
I have a friend who owns a training facility and you know what, there are a boat load of next generation kids who will be 2 way players!
my question is what defines "a boatload" is it 10% of pitchers are 2 way? 20%?
also do you feel like D3 will have the ratios as D1?
@DD 2024 posted:Yes, I too am sensing it's an emerging trend. Thanks for the input.
Can you explain why you are sensing this? I am genuinely curious.
@old_school posted:my question is what defines "a boatload" is it 10% of pitchers are 2 way? 20%?
also do you feel like D3 will have the ratios as D1?
OLD_SCHOOL I don't have to explain anything to you. NOTHING!
Why don't you go do your own homework. visit youth training centers in your area, see what's going on to prepare players for competing to get college scholarships, if they have them around your area.
Well, for sure it will make things cheaper. If all the fielders also pitch - kind of like our high school teams - 11.7 scholarships would more than cover it. I hope no-one tells the NCAA this.
The reality is that with 35+ players, most teams can find their best 6 pitchers and their best 8 hitters/position players and have them be different people. If sometimes they are the same people, then they are.
The question is, will more college coaches, at all levels, recruit players by telling them they can try two-way? It's very appealing to some players.
@TPM posted:OLD_SCHOOL I don't have to explain anything to you. NOTHING!
Why don't you go do your own homework. visit youth training centers in your area, see what's going on to prepare players for competing to get college scholarships, if they have them around your area.
ugh well I didn't ask you to explain anything, I asked what a boatload is, that doesn't seem unreasonable.
@anotherparent posted:Well, for sure it will make things cheaper. If all the fielders also pitch - kind of like our high school teams - 11.7 scholarships would more than cover it. I hope no-one tells the NCAA this.
The reality is that with 35+ players, most teams can find their best 6 pitchers and their best 8 hitters/position players and have them be different people. If sometimes they are the same people, then they are.
The question is, will more college coaches, at all levels, recruit players by telling them they can try two-way? It's very appealing to some players.
i have no doubt that coaches will play whoever they think is going to win for them. The thought process here indicates the same coaches who for generations now don't use 2 way players, because they believe they have a better chance to win with specialties, are going to change their minds and now look to promote 2 way players.
I guess this is possible but based on history I don't know that i would expect to see a large movement this direction. I am just looking at history here, there could be a boatload of players in the upcoming generation that change everything...
@TPM posted:And your point is? I see someone who for 4 years has pitched and played an actual position, not DH.
Two way players exist in college baseball, not just in D3. I have seen quite a few over the years. D1,D2. No, you aren't going to find another Shohei Ohtani, who actually isn't a two way position player IMO, but just an AL pitcher who hits.
As someone pointed out, is this about college baseball or Major League baseball..
JMO
The point is for the most part he shifted from being a pitcher to a hitter. As he shifted his pitching suffered. Chances are those very low inning seasons were mop up, save the staff innings.
@RJM posted:The point is for the most part he shifted from being a pitcher to a hitter. As he shifted his pitching suffered. Chances are those very low inning seasons were mop up, save the staff innings.
He was a hitter and a pitcher in HS.
It doesn't matter what you or I, or anyone else thinks, his coach gave him the opportunity.
My son is officially a two way player but never got an at bat last year. He was in the ondeck circle three times but crazy circumstances kept him from it. 2 double plays and a pitcher getting hurt and had to go to bullpen and get ready real quickly. He is the only switch hitter on the roster. He still takes BP including at Omaha and still hits some. He worked 3 hours a night on it his freshman year but last year decided being a better pitcher was what was going to get him on the field so he put the extra time in pitching. Hit enough to be ready. We have one who actually did it but only pitched 5 innings all season. I just don't think you will see very few who will do it very often and when I say very few I'm talking less than 1% of all D1 college pitchers who will get significant innings and at bats.