"You tell me about the hitting system you believe in from A to Z with explanations and give me drills or ways to do it....."
Scooter, I can't think of a reason to do so......What you believe is just simply not of importance to me.......I post here to reach players not people like you.......I want players to know there is a better way than what they are presently being taught in most, just about all, cases......I gave up awhile back trying to convince Coaches like yourself of anything.......
Scooter, I can't think of a reason to do so......What you believe is just simply not of importance to me.......I post here to reach players not people like you.......I want players to know there is a better way than what they are presently being taught in most, just about all, cases......I gave up awhile back trying to convince Coaches like yourself of anything.......
Bluedog,
Then why - in gods name - are you here on this website?
This is a pointed - and logical question - IMO.
If you are unable to provide specifics as to your teaching theories - what is the point?
If you are unwilling to share your knowledge - regardless of your personal desires - why even come here?
Thats another pointed - and logical question. IMO.
Lots of questions.
Then why - in gods name - are you here on this website?
This is a pointed - and logical question - IMO.
If you are unable to provide specifics as to your teaching theories - what is the point?
If you are unwilling to share your knowledge - regardless of your personal desires - why even come here?
Thats another pointed - and logical question. IMO.
Lots of questions.
I love that everyone has different opinions. Especially guys like BBScout, who obviously is a stong baseball guy. However, I expressed the way I taught a grip from the way I was taught and was told I was incorrect. Respectfully, and I mean that, I don't need validation from him, or anyone, to recognize that it works with the kids I coach. It's not incorrect, just that he might disagree with it. That I can accept and respect. It's a great way to start young swings without a loop. Hitters will modify their swings as they advance and get older.
Posting is light today so I'll be the lightening rod......It's a new position for me but I'll try.
I'm not Blue Dog but I've never minded interfering.
I don't see where he said he was unable to provide specifics....
I don't see where he said he was unwilling to share knowledge...
I do see where he said he gave up trying to convince coaches like scooter.
I see significant differences between what he's accused of compared to what he said.
The only thing I can see that would make It's statement accurate is if he's saying all hsbaseballweb posters are scooters. If you know what I mean.
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
If you are unable to provide specifics as to your teaching theories - what is the point?
If you are unwilling to share your knowledge - regardless of your personal desires - why even come here?
I'm not Blue Dog but I've never minded interfering.
I don't see where he said he was unable to provide specifics....
I don't see where he said he was unwilling to share knowledge...
I do see where he said he gave up trying to convince coaches like scooter.
I see significant differences between what he's accused of compared to what he said.
The only thing I can see that would make It's statement accurate is if he's saying all hsbaseballweb posters are scooters. If you know what I mean.
Linear,
Forget all the bs tangential nonsense.
If he has it - he should share it.
Its that simple.
One liners wont work here anymore.
You seem more than willing to share very detailed beliefs about hitting. I have come to appreciate them - even if I dont agree with them.
One liners are done.
Forget all the bs tangential nonsense.
If he has it - he should share it.
Its that simple.
One liners wont work here anymore.
You seem more than willing to share very detailed beliefs about hitting. I have come to appreciate them - even if I dont agree with them.
One liners are done.
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Linear
...You seem more than willing to share very detailed beliefs about hitting...
I have and so has Blue Dog. I've recently started a PM hitting dialogue with a former (I hope former) major critic of mine.
But, there are some people I won't do that with. A certain threshhold has to be crossed before I'll invest time with someone individually.
Call it tangential nonsense if you want. But the truth is.............you missed Blue Dogs point.
Finally we're waiting for your hitting details.
After all, why else would you be here.
I think it would be great if you - and Bluedog - would mosey on over to "The Grip" topic - and give your opinion on the subject.
This thread is getting very long - and convoluted - IMO.
Would be great to start on another aspect of hitting IMO.
This thread is getting very long - and convoluted - IMO.
Would be great to start on another aspect of hitting IMO.
Linear IMO - - We - as readers of the board - are not interested in who you and Bluedog will not speak to.
We are interested in ideas about hitting - for the benefit of parents and players who want to think critically and learn.
Lets all get it done OK?
We are interested in ideas about hitting - for the benefit of parents and players who want to think critically and learn.
Lets all get it done OK?
BBScout, young players are not Major League players. They are learning. The knock knuckle technique keeps the bat in their fingers more and takes out the loop that is caused by wrapping the bat. It works. You don't have to agree, as I said. One of the best hitters in the world was Ty Cobb, and he hit with his hands two or three inches apart on the handle. I wouldn't teach that to a Little League kid, but it sure worked for Cobb. Al Oliver was a great MLB hitter. So should I teach kids to start with their hands straight over their heads before the pitch comes? Oliver had 2,700 hits, didn't he?
To answer your last question, I always listened well, questioned everything and took away what was best for me.
And the grip that is used by the clips you post will cause a loop in a young player's swing. IMO.
To answer your last question, I always listened well, questioned everything and took away what was best for me.
And the grip that is used by the clips you post will cause a loop in a young player's swing. IMO.
I have little interest in the grip.
It's not an absolute.........as if there are any.
It's not an absolute.........as if there are any.
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Linear IMO - - We - as readers of the board - are not interested in who you and Bluedog will not speak to...
More evidence that you still missed the point.
No one said we wouldn't speak to him.
Read scooters offer.......It involves significantly more than "speaking to".
And, quite frankly, I know what kind of time I'd put into an offer like he made. I don't trust the return.
quote:Originally posted by Scooter:
...I will do it today after I get home from school....
This is very telling to me.
Good - now that we all understand your position,
talk hitting.
That is why we are here.
Talk hitting. The rest of this is a waste.
talk hitting.
That is why we are here.
Talk hitting. The rest of this is a waste.
quote:Originally posted by Linear:quote:Originally posted by Scooter:
...I will do it today after I get home from school....
This is very telling to me.
The offer I made was serious, if there is a better way then I want to know and try it for myself before I present it to players I coach. I think it is a great opportunity for me to change my mind on some of the ideas I have towards hitting.
quote:Scooter, I can't think of a reason to do so...I gave up awhile back trying to convince Coaches like yourself of anything.......
Bluedog,
You know nothing about me or my style of coaching or how I study the game just like I know nothing about you or your style of coaching. I am asking for away to test your style to see if it is different from the hitting methods I teach and to see if it works to better my players.
The problem with Linear and you isn't the fact that you two don't have any knowledge, it is the fact that you two will not share it with the rest of the board. The only thing you two do is critize and down-grade others without offering explanations.
Here is a prime example of not offering an explanation of what you are talking about
quote:It's the front leg.......If you can use the front leg properly either way, it doesn't matter open or closed.....If you can't, it matters......
I may think you are talking about making sure it is stiff but not rigid with a little flex but someone else may have a different idea of what you are talking about. In all of my posts, this is what I have been saying about the failure to offer decent information.
Scooter
BBScout,
There is nothing to change. The knock knuckle teaching approach is very, very sound, and your unwillingness to recognize that is quite acceptable to me. It is a practice that teaches young hitters to hold the bat in their fingers and prevent a loop in a swing or from holding the bat too deep in their hands. Here is an illustration for you (I only endorse the grip as it pertains to our discussion):
http://www.hit2win.com/6step.html
As a hitter progresses, he will modify his own swing for comfort and effectiveness. This is a teaching tool, what this string was originally about, I believe. But you can keep the clips coming...they're fun to watch. And there are many things that MLB hitters do that I would not teach a kid.
There is nothing to change. The knock knuckle teaching approach is very, very sound, and your unwillingness to recognize that is quite acceptable to me. It is a practice that teaches young hitters to hold the bat in their fingers and prevent a loop in a swing or from holding the bat too deep in their hands. Here is an illustration for you (I only endorse the grip as it pertains to our discussion):
http://www.hit2win.com/6step.html
As a hitter progresses, he will modify his own swing for comfort and effectiveness. This is a teaching tool, what this string was originally about, I believe. But you can keep the clips coming...they're fun to watch. And there are many things that MLB hitters do that I would not teach a kid.
I'm not part of this "grip" discussion, as I don't consider it an absolute.
But, I would never offer that link as a recommendation to anyone.
But, I would never offer that link as a recommendation to anyone.
linear
what link(s) would you recommend ?
what link(s) would you recommend ?
BBScout,
I don't know who that coach is. It was a visual of what I was talking about pertaining to the hands.
I have doubts about the statement you make that you are always willing to learn, as you cannot accept that the knock knuckle technique is a sound teaching device for younger players. You are steadfast that if someone doesn't hold a bat like Pete Rose or Ted Williams that there is something wrong. I know it is sound and that it works. I don't need film clips to reinforce my beliefs. I am confident in teaching this grip. Thanks though, like I said, they're cool to watch.
As for things MBL hitters do that I would not teach...how about Gary Sheffield's bat wave prior to the pitch? Bet that would look good and work wonders in Little League...or how about Sammy Sosa's stride technique - try explaining how to do that to a 10-year old.
Want to see a clip of Sosa or Sheffield?
I don't know who that coach is. It was a visual of what I was talking about pertaining to the hands.
I have doubts about the statement you make that you are always willing to learn, as you cannot accept that the knock knuckle technique is a sound teaching device for younger players. You are steadfast that if someone doesn't hold a bat like Pete Rose or Ted Williams that there is something wrong. I know it is sound and that it works. I don't need film clips to reinforce my beliefs. I am confident in teaching this grip. Thanks though, like I said, they're cool to watch.
As for things MBL hitters do that I would not teach...how about Gary Sheffield's bat wave prior to the pitch? Bet that would look good and work wonders in Little League...or how about Sammy Sosa's stride technique - try explaining how to do that to a 10-year old.
Want to see a clip of Sosa or Sheffield?
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
linear
what link(s) would you recommend ?
For you...........the golf links.
BBScout, you repeatedly fail to comprehend the concept. Sheffield does his thing and so does Sosa. Both are great hitters, but would you teach them to a 10-year old because a major leaguer does them? Therefore, with my limited communication skills via the Internet, I can only repeat to you that this technique works. And I don't need to convince you to feel good about teaching it.
But debate and discussion is what this forum is all about...
Some MLB hitters hitch when they swing, like Dave Winfield did. Would you teach a hitch? Winfield is an all-time great with Hall of Fame eyes, hands and bat speed. Think little Johnny from Podunk Pa. has those hands at 10? Probably not.
Roberto Clemente stepped in the bucket when he hit, but kept his hips closed and hands back when he racked up those 3000 hits. Would you teach a kid to step in the bucket like Clemente did? Different talent level between Clemente and a Little Leaguer from New Jersey, don't you agree?
Shawn Green is the best example of a MLB hitter who still had them lined up when he hits. Tony Gwynn was very close also. Having the top hand turn slightly over time is a natural progression over time, if it's more comfortable to the hitter. I always hit in the midpoint between the knock and big knuckles on my down hand. Most turn slightly. But the concept of the knock knuckles helped avoid a loop I felt and got me to the ball faster.
Either you lack the capacity to grasp this, or I lack the communication ability it would take to make you understand (I'll burn all three of my diplomas right after I send this!).
But debate and discussion is what this forum is all about...
Some MLB hitters hitch when they swing, like Dave Winfield did. Would you teach a hitch? Winfield is an all-time great with Hall of Fame eyes, hands and bat speed. Think little Johnny from Podunk Pa. has those hands at 10? Probably not.
Roberto Clemente stepped in the bucket when he hit, but kept his hips closed and hands back when he racked up those 3000 hits. Would you teach a kid to step in the bucket like Clemente did? Different talent level between Clemente and a Little Leaguer from New Jersey, don't you agree?
Shawn Green is the best example of a MLB hitter who still had them lined up when he hits. Tony Gwynn was very close also. Having the top hand turn slightly over time is a natural progression over time, if it's more comfortable to the hitter. I always hit in the midpoint between the knock and big knuckles on my down hand. Most turn slightly. But the concept of the knock knuckles helped avoid a loop I felt and got me to the ball faster.
Either you lack the capacity to grasp this, or I lack the communication ability it would take to make you understand (I'll burn all three of my diplomas right after I send this!).
A Hitch carefully analysed can be much more than style IMHO. Especially when mentioned in the same sentence with Bonds. Grip can alter mechanics. Little kids can learn to swing right. Swinging right is easier than learning wrong. Swinging right makes kids better hitters
How to Load to Hit A Baseball like MLB players that I admire and try to emulate
Lead elbow begins down close to body( pronated lead shoulder), rear elbow moves higher( lead by pronated top hand) causing the bat to be splitting helmet( or higher on some swings) as bottom hand works under top hand on load.
NOW
The the reverse happens, lead elbow works up into the pitch plane, rear elbow slots making the bat tip accelerate backwards as the barrel plane changes down toward the 45 slot. Sending the hands backwards at stride initiation gives the front foot time to firm interupping coil load and priming the torso for the shoulder turn that will bring the bat around connected to the core turn.
Learn what the above means and how to and you will see how it affects loading, weight transfer, getting the front foot down and in time. You will then see why your grip will not lead to a good swing.
Been there done that with own kid age 7-19. Don't be mislead. This move is in concert with the pitchers move and gets you to the launch point with plenty of time to swing the bat and with more bat speed.
Don't swing with a cheap imitation. You will be half your potential if you have some. Ny-mas little clay man has it right. Wish he could talk and explain it his supporters
How to Load to Hit A Baseball like MLB players that I admire and try to emulate
Lead elbow begins down close to body( pronated lead shoulder), rear elbow moves higher( lead by pronated top hand) causing the bat to be splitting helmet( or higher on some swings) as bottom hand works under top hand on load.
NOW
The the reverse happens, lead elbow works up into the pitch plane, rear elbow slots making the bat tip accelerate backwards as the barrel plane changes down toward the 45 slot. Sending the hands backwards at stride initiation gives the front foot time to firm interupping coil load and priming the torso for the shoulder turn that will bring the bat around connected to the core turn.
Learn what the above means and how to and you will see how it affects loading, weight transfer, getting the front foot down and in time. You will then see why your grip will not lead to a good swing.
Been there done that with own kid age 7-19. Don't be mislead. This move is in concert with the pitchers move and gets you to the launch point with plenty of time to swing the bat and with more bat speed.
Don't swing with a cheap imitation. You will be half your potential if you have some. Ny-mas little clay man has it right. Wish he could talk and explain it his supporters
Interesting.
quote:Bluedog,
Then why - in gods name - are you here on this website?
Game, I'm here to counter most of what you, and others like you, say..........Players need to hear and know that it is not only O.K. to think outside the box, but, it is something they need to do to hit anywhere near their potential......
Thats great to hear Bluedog.
Start countering then.
Start countering then.
Bluedog,
The bad thing about your response is Linear and you don't counter or do anything to help. All you two do is give one liners full of downgrading. The bad thing is until I came to this site two or three years ago, I never heard of Paul ***** and I have been around baseball and read baseball articles from Coach polk to Coach Gillispie but never heard of *****.
The other thing is if I was a player coming on here looking for answers to questions, I would see a bunch of smoke and mirrors especially if it came from either Linear or you.
Note to All Players :
If you want good explanations to questions regarding baseball, please don't ask Linear or Bluedog. Seek out BBscout, CoachB25, Raider Baseball, and there are a few more that will help you and try to explain their system without judging you.
Scooter
The bad thing about your response is Linear and you don't counter or do anything to help. All you two do is give one liners full of downgrading. The bad thing is until I came to this site two or three years ago, I never heard of Paul ***** and I have been around baseball and read baseball articles from Coach polk to Coach Gillispie but never heard of *****.
The other thing is if I was a player coming on here looking for answers to questions, I would see a bunch of smoke and mirrors especially if it came from either Linear or you.
Note to All Players :
If you want good explanations to questions regarding baseball, please don't ask Linear or Bluedog. Seek out BBscout, CoachB25, Raider Baseball, and there are a few more that will help you and try to explain their system without judging you.
Scooter
Scooter,
There are alot more here on the HSBBWEB than a "few" more.
You just havent been here long enough to realize that.
There are alot more here on the HSBBWEB than a "few" more.
You just havent been here long enough to realize that.
For what it is worth - I would agree with bbscout.
Linear writes some great stuff IMO. I dont agree with all of it - but there is alot of good stuff.
Bluedog has yet to contribute IMO.
There are many other great coaches here - and I wont try to name them - because I am sure I will leave some out and feel bad about it.
Linear writes some great stuff IMO. I dont agree with all of it - but there is alot of good stuff.
Bluedog has yet to contribute IMO.
There are many other great coaches here - and I wont try to name them - because I am sure I will leave some out and feel bad about it.
Thanks
Here's some of my work.
Just advanced to stage 2.
Still perfecting stage 1.
Get your licks in quick. They won't stay up long.
Here's some of my work.
Just advanced to stage 2.
Still perfecting stage 1.
Get your licks in quick. They won't stay up long.
Linear,
I too believe you know a lot about hitting, but I have a question.
On the top clip... do you think this hitter is getting good lower body involvement?
I too believe you know a lot about hitting, but I have a question.
On the top clip... do you think this hitter is getting good lower body involvement?
Define "good lower body involvement" for me.
Remember, these are .gifs. They play much slower than real life. If you have quicktime, rt.click, save target as and play in quicktime. Either hit the play button or hold the forward arrow. That will be closer to real time.
Remember, these are .gifs. They play much slower than real life. If you have quicktime, rt.click, save target as and play in quicktime. Either hit the play button or hold the forward arrow. That will be closer to real time.
Linear,
1st clip - I would throw inside part of plate - up and down - inside all the time.
2nd clip - I would throw breaking ball and offspeed alot to this hitter.
1st clip - I would throw inside part of plate - up and down - inside all the time.
2nd clip - I would throw breaking ball and offspeed alot to this hitter.
I've heard some ridiculous things but these have to rank real high on the list.
You've seen each kid hit one pitch.
You are one hell of a scout. But, if I were you I wouldn't want to be paid hourly.
You've seen each kid hit one pitch.
You are one hell of a scout. But, if I were you I wouldn't want to be paid hourly.
You asked. LOL
Hourly - or by the minute - doesnt matter - just the rate matters.
BTW - I am not a scout. Or a coach. Just someone who watches the game and the players.
Hourly - or by the minute - doesnt matter - just the rate matters.
BTW - I am not a scout. Or a coach. Just someone who watches the game and the players.
I don't remember asking anything.
Should I retact my comments then?
Your call.
Your call.
Thanks for the clips "linear".
I have located the old ironnyman simulations that demonstrate the existence of THT,although he does not interpret the models that way. I believe his interpretation is faulty,but people should examine them themselves and make up their minds. Still,very good models which show a powerful effect of the back arm quickening the swing. Is it just "passive"/inertial as ***** says, or could it be harnessed by the body via perceptible active arm motion ?
The relevant models are named rotational_simulation5 and rotational_simulation6,perhas someone can link them as I do not have ****** access. If not,I can send them to someone to post.
As for these tee clips,they show the difference between the low level and high level swings related to the key bbscout question:
BB:"I count the same amount of frames as you do. The rotation is going and the hands are holding back. If the body is working as one, why are the hands holding back for 5 frames of rotation? If they are just along for the ride, why are they not moving? What gets them moving if the center of the body is rotating and they (the hands) are not going anywhere, yet are supposed to be along for the ride?"
Compare the lefty/stage 2 clip to bbscout's tee shot from behind of brett for example.
Brett is doing "something" so that his coil dynamics are better which I believe is related to "keeping hands back better" which is related to arm action.
Notice in both (brett tee and stage 2 lefty tee guy) when the front foot is down, Brett's hips have not turned open much. His back leg has stayed turned back because of the upper body load. By the time he gets to contact,the upper torso is still driving the swing and has not caught up/passed the hips. This is what results in the typical nonbugsquishing back foot/heel leads toe type action of the high level swing.
In the low level swing, when the front heel is down,the hips have opened quite a bit already (power leak overturning hips/poor timing of separation/coil). Then by the time of contact,the torso/shoulders have already caught up to the hip angle,meaning poor acceleration/poor quickness.Not surprising in a nonhigh level swing, but are you on the path without some kind of arm action assisting the shoulder load so the hands stay back and coil dynamics are better ?
The skilltechnologies motionanalysis shows the desired angles of the links and how they relate/change dynamically for inside/out,high level swing vs lower/power leak swing,for example.
Brett,if in accord with the lau model is consciously applying arm action to assist loading much like donny has described in a way that fits with laus "knob pulling" cues. I am not sure how brett himself would describe it.
I have located the old ironnyman simulations that demonstrate the existence of THT,although he does not interpret the models that way. I believe his interpretation is faulty,but people should examine them themselves and make up their minds. Still,very good models which show a powerful effect of the back arm quickening the swing. Is it just "passive"/inertial as ***** says, or could it be harnessed by the body via perceptible active arm motion ?
The relevant models are named rotational_simulation5 and rotational_simulation6,perhas someone can link them as I do not have ****** access. If not,I can send them to someone to post.
As for these tee clips,they show the difference between the low level and high level swings related to the key bbscout question:
BB:"I count the same amount of frames as you do. The rotation is going and the hands are holding back. If the body is working as one, why are the hands holding back for 5 frames of rotation? If they are just along for the ride, why are they not moving? What gets them moving if the center of the body is rotating and they (the hands) are not going anywhere, yet are supposed to be along for the ride?"
Compare the lefty/stage 2 clip to bbscout's tee shot from behind of brett for example.
Brett is doing "something" so that his coil dynamics are better which I believe is related to "keeping hands back better" which is related to arm action.
Notice in both (brett tee and stage 2 lefty tee guy) when the front foot is down, Brett's hips have not turned open much. His back leg has stayed turned back because of the upper body load. By the time he gets to contact,the upper torso is still driving the swing and has not caught up/passed the hips. This is what results in the typical nonbugsquishing back foot/heel leads toe type action of the high level swing.
In the low level swing, when the front heel is down,the hips have opened quite a bit already (power leak overturning hips/poor timing of separation/coil). Then by the time of contact,the torso/shoulders have already caught up to the hip angle,meaning poor acceleration/poor quickness.Not surprising in a nonhigh level swing, but are you on the path without some kind of arm action assisting the shoulder load so the hands stay back and coil dynamics are better ?
The skilltechnologies motionanalysis shows the desired angles of the links and how they relate/change dynamically for inside/out,high level swing vs lower/power leak swing,for example.
Brett,if in accord with the lau model is consciously applying arm action to assist loading much like donny has described in a way that fits with laus "knob pulling" cues. I am not sure how brett himself would describe it.
tom,
Wow!
Can you say that again, I read it 5 times and still have no idea what the heck you are talking about.
Wow!
Can you say that again, I read it 5 times and still have no idea what the heck you are talking about.
Linear,
I commented on both clips - then you removed one of them.
Thats not fair. LOL
I commented on both clips - then you removed one of them.
Thats not fair. LOL
I actually wanted your opinion... from the waist to the feet, do you feel that hitter in the first clip is using his lower body correctly. Is he getting maximum rotation and power in that swing?
Guess I don't under stand the Phase 1 - Phase 2 thing. Is there a phase 3?
Not arguing, just curious.
Guess I don't under stand the Phase 1 - Phase 2 thing. Is there a phase 3?
Not arguing, just curious.
