How will you teach hitting?

quote:

nice answer, but Bonds can create a lot more chaos than Green.

Bbscout, I really don't think either one of us knows just how much chaos Bonds, or Green creates.........Other than to say alot.....

It's not just about creating chaos......It's also about controlling the chaos once it has been created.......Who can do this better?....Bonds....

quote:

If you move your eyes in the direction the car is moving you can see it very well for a longer period of time.............it’s called TRACKING.

PGStaff, I left some of what you said out, but the integrity of what you said has not been compromised.....

The problem I have with "tracking" is twofold.......Coaches teach to track the ball all the way in.....This is wrong, as pitch recognition needs to happen very quickly....Also, the head has a tendency to move with the eyes when "tracking" is taught.........And, IMO, the head should never pivot toward the catcher.....If it does, swing technique will be affected......A hitter's head should always pivot toward the pitcher while swinging............

Hitter's do need to get a quick look at the pitch after it is released.....Then, the eyes should stay in front of the ball and let the peripheral and brain decide the speed.....And, this happens much more quickly than most Caoches understand.....There is pitch recognition time (by the eyes), brain information processing time (by the brain), decision time (by the brain), and actual swinging time (by the body) involved in half a second or less......The technique of "tracking" involves time that just isn't available to a hitter........

And, on top of all that, amateur hitters are taught to balance to the ground, keep the head still, and find the swing plane with the hands and arms, which is a slow process.......Add "tracking to the mix, and..........

I see Mankin's at it again. He moved the quickness thread to the top.

He's been given the answer by at least 3 people I know of. Wonder why he doesn't post 'em.

Nice guy....very "religious".......no clue.

BTW buster.....first try......no prior knowledge.....off the Tee.....I told my son swing as quick as you can.......line drive over the mound.

I expected no different because I see him do it all the time off the swing-a-way. I hit off it probably 3, maybe 4 times per week. All mine go up the middle.

Maybe the garbage in garbage out theory applies to your guys.

I think one thing that is mistaken for turning the head/following the ball in (bad idea as mentioned by bdog and emphasized by Epstein among others) is the "chin tuck" necessary to stabilize the spine/axis during rapid acceleration of the bathead.

quote:

He's been given the answer by at least 3 people I know of. Wonder why he doesn't post 'em.

Nice guy....very "religious".......no clue.

BTW buster.....first try......no prior knowledge.....off the Tee.....I told my son swing as quick as you can.......line drive over the mound

Mankin has no clue and your facing 100 mph pitches and your son hit all the tee balls over the mound. I knew that.........

Why don't you guys post the answers here....it is not censored as to content as evidenced by your presence here still. We would be more fair with what you say than any review of all your post in this thread.

Some of these guys that come here don't know much and are learning and your " go back to the drawing board you idiot" post while consistent are not helpful.

Whats your motivation?

You may not like what I post, but when I quote you I do so accurately. Try it. It'll make you look honest even if people disagree with you.

And, when you define the things I asked, I'll answer you. I said I would. I will.

My stuff stands up.

Ok...this is cool and amazing feel....

"LOOP AND HAMMER" DRILL. This drill teaches the hands to move before the bat barrel moves. Start with the hands pointing the bat head toward second base...

this part is a bad discription of what happens but I will include it so completeness

...flick the hands through the hitting zone without letting the bat barrel drop below the hands, then "hammer" an imaginary ball out in front of the body.


You will see where, how and when hand torque CAN enter the swing. If you have never felt hand torque your missing an interesting experience. If you no stride and precock( and I coached this for years) you have never felt this

You can see this in Bagwells, Ruths and Piazza swings.

Your front foot will get down at the right time...automatic.

Anybody...try it. There is no slack at launch.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:


Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE

Or bend at the waist / unbend LEVER

Any other energy sources ? Bat knob TORQUE

Still waiting

quote:

Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE

The turning of the lower body or the upper body such that the line of the hips is different from the line of the shoulders applying an opposite force in the midsection

Or bend at the waist / unbend LEVER . Implies hinge/ unhinge in the sense of up and down movement or change of the spine angle from more bend to less

Any other energy sources ? Bat knob TORQUE

Any action that applies a pull force with one hand and a push force with the other; . The center of the rotation would be between the hands. These forces applied in opposite directions move the barrel opposite of the bottom hand pull.

I know these are all wrong.......ZZZZZZZZZZZ

quote:

Blue, how does more head movement give you better results? I must know.

MR.3000, I have no idea.....Perhaps you should ask whoever might have said such a thing....

If you think that's what I said, well, read again......

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
[QUOTE]Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE

The turning of the lower body or the upper body such that the line of the hips is different from the line of the shoulders applying an opposite force in the midsection

And.....the foot's role in this please.

I mean, you call it hand's back / foot open torque TURN TORQUE.

Bluedog,

"Chaos" - How cool is that new term?

I love it. LOL

quote:

And.....the foot's role in this please.

I mean, you call it hand's back / foot open torque TURN TORQUE.

In my teaching model my lead leg interupts( hopefully)the load/ coil as it rotates into plant. At plant I would like to feel the hips work to clear creating a belly up action in the middle. If the hips don't clear the hands, disconnection can occur and you are going to try to hit over the top of them. Top hand over 3B

There is a relationship ( for me) about where the hands( shoulder line) are in relation to the lead toe( hip line) as anatomical markers from a top view. You can have no separation, too much or the right amount. The right amount is what you can create and capture and apply.

I have a hard time seeing how the hips can be as active quickly with a closed off front foot....but I think I will know soon

As a side bar..The problem with one Epstein drill was the deltoid drill did not put the shoulders back and connection occurred to far into the hip turn phase. IOWs we had to turn past natural to connect. Again a drill and one can experience a new feel

At true launch... my model and yours from my point of view ( not yours) could be indentical. But , I really don't know what you do

Well, after 652 responses, this topic is slowing down. Here are some other general thoughts that might get us going:

• Early Timing! You have to be ready to hit BEFORE YOU STEP INTO THE BOX.
• Stride or no stride? WHAT DO YOU CHOOSE?
  
• Elbows – relaxed AND natural! (Think we've covered that some.)
  
• Cookie Cutter Hitters? Is there a degree of this?
• Bat past the ear at 45 degrees. (That's were we have it. You?)
  
• Avoid the “collapsed back leg!”
  
• Some form of negative rotation based upon a point in the pitcher’s windup/release.
• Follow through – belly button at pitcher, butt over the heel but on balance!
• Release or no release? (Do you coach it?)

Some things I know:

• It is hard to develop timing for some hitters even if they are athletic enough to get to those points in the swing at the right time. (Example - perhaps they need eye care.)
  
• Stride is very difficult to do in hitting sequence. It should be so easy. Stride is one of those things that if you are thinking about it while at the plate, you're done.
• We sometimes have hitters collapse their back leg or other hitting flaws because of too many reps at a station. Hitting for a purpose is great but remember the number of reps CAN cause fatigue and fatigue could cause flaws.
• We need more reps off of live arm. Doesn't every program want that?
• You must indoctrinate players into your hitting philosophy. This can be achieved through handouts and certainly through coaching. If you don't coach it and discuss it, stay off of the kid for doing something other than your philosophy. JMHO!

quote:

Well, after 652 responses, this topic is slowing down.

Tell me it ain't so.

quote:

Cookie Cutter Hitters? Is there a degree of this?

Coach, this is, for me, an interesting question for discussion..........

I really don't subscribe to the hitting absolutes type of theory......Are there absolutes?.......Well, I guess so......But, IMO, the absolutes are not abstract........

Examples:.....Do the hands/arms need to load at a certain height location?.......My answer is, they need to connect to the shoulder by way of scapula load and shouldn't be high.......Will that ideal height location be different in some hitters?....Probably so.......

Should the stride be long or short?.......My answer is, the stride should accomplish it's goal, which is to supply momentum......Can I no-stride if I supply enough momentum doing so?.......Can I stride either long or short if it works for me?.....My answer to both, is, of course, as long as your momentum is adequate..............

When do I start the stride?.....My answer is, when you need to.......The load/unload process should be as seamless as possible, IMO.......

I teach hitters to "feel" what they need to feel by way of drills and dry swinging.....THEY must work hard to transfer this "feel" from their practice, to their practice swings, and then on to their game swings........I can't do this for them......

Technique such as finding ideal load patterns/locations, seamless load/unloads, is something that is a continual learning and perfecting process that will go on as long as they play baseball.....There is no backing off of the hard work they must do that is required to learn the most efficient way for them to swing a bat.....IMO, a hitter is never good enough.......There is no batting average, number of homeruns, or any other stat that is acceptable enough to say, I have arrived......By the same token, there is no technique good enough to say, I've found the Holy Grail of hitting.....The search for better is always in play.......I tell my hitters, when I find a better way, you'll be the first to know......

quote:

It is hard to develop timing for some hitters even if they are athletic enough to get to those points in the swing at the right time. (Example - perhaps they need eye care.)

Coach, FWIW, I wear trifocals....My vision is not so good......I still actively hit every now and then because I should since I teach hitting and trial and error on myself.......I have no problem seeing the ball....My point is, I believe vision is not the problem in almost all cases......

IMO, timing is an event of the brain and cannot/shouldn't be taught.....I don't, like most do, believe the purpose of the stride is for timimg......The key to timing, I believe, is in swing quickness......The brain knows when to begin the forward swing......However, if the body isn't quick enough to get the bat around to the ball, the hitter has a technique problem, IMO.....It could be slack in the unloading process, improper loading, improper posture, or something else....JMO, but, looking at vision and timing of the stride for a, not getting the bat around to the ball in time problem, will keep a Coach from solving the real problem.....Alot like an infielder who has a glove/hand ball transfer problem.....The problem is more than likely in the body being loaded in time to throw process, not the glove/hand transfer......As Teacherman pointed out some time ago......

Donny-

That is an excellent description "late connection".

Without a good loading arm action,the hands can not stay back and the upper and lower limbs can not synchronize so that the hips and torso do not overturn. Same as spinning or flying open in throwing-when the hands are no longer staying back enough with arm action assisting in keeping the backside back enough when connection happens.

You want late connection in terms of time/waiting on the ball as long as possible,but with body not having overrotated in spite of staying back longer.

Some described this quick swing that allows waiting as long as possible as having "early batspeed" - no wonder it is so confusing to talk about. Late vs early need to be defined including how this relates to spatial as well as temporal aspects of the swing.Also nice to define launch,lag,connection,etc.

I agree with the improved quickness possible in Hands free as opposed to bat on deltoid stage of learning (Epstein) also illustrated in the brett tee vs game swing clips from bbscout in the other thread.

CoachB25, another example of why I believe absolutes are not abstract and can change from day to day and may be an absolute for one hitter, but not another....

This was recently talked about.....Should a hitter stride with an open front foot or a closed front foot?......Before deciding this, the hitter must first answer two questions.......Do you understand the role of the front leg in the swing?.....And, can you use your front leg properly in your swing?.........If the answer is "no" to either question, it is an absolute that the hitter should stride with a closed front foot until he understands how to, and can, use his front leg properly, IMO.......When he understands and knows how to use his front leg properly, it is no longer an absolute, and doesn't matter if he strides with an open or closed front foot.....

On a side note.......Some here talk about how myself, and a few others, listen to so-called gurus and can't think for ourselves.....If someone opens your thoughts to possibilities and you don't prove or disprove these possibilities for yourself, shame on you.....Personally, I search out those who are more knowledgeable than me.....When I find them, I'm ready to learn......

CoachB25, you've laid out a great case for hitting drills and training. I can always tell when I read or meet a successful coach. As for this incredibly long post, I am amazed at the diatribe of opinions and terms. Scapula load is one I won't use in the near future. There is no holy grail in hitting, just sound practices that work. Some hitters will need more work than others, but they definitely don't need more fancy terminology and confusing statements. Some of us know that an open foot does not work and we know why. Trying to convince theorists why it doesn't work may require a larger site with more post capability. If you're one of those searching for hitting perfection, good luck. Hard work, proven drills, help from new technology, listening to the great teachers are all things that will bring you success when you are teaching young hitters. I would like to think that this post will end soon, but probably not. I was dumb enough to continue here, so feel free.

Coachric

Blue Dog

I think we all do as you suggest--search out those who know more than we do--the problem is that on line that fact is difficult to decipher--there is so much regurgitation of " gurus stuff" it is difficult to know who is real and who isn't especially when many refuse to talk about their success, if in fact such success any exists.

I will listen to a Gary Ward talk on hitting, to name one, before anyone on a website, no offense to those who actually know what they are doing and have seen results of their ability. It diesnt mean I will accept what he says but I will listen to him.

Before I listen to what is said on any pitching site I will listen to Coach Bill Thurston because I know what his track record is and have seen the results.

Bottom line: anyone can talk theory, even develop their own but for me unless I see results I wont subscribe to it---real facts are what count

Winning coaches who teach and instruct at clinics are what it is all about for me-- if their players are successful then they are doing something right--not to anyone has to be a coach to be a instructor because there are many excellent intructors who do not coach but their students are successful

It is not a matter of a closed mind it is a matter of knowing who the heck is talking and what his track record is and what his results have been

quote:

Some of us know that an open foot does not work and we know why.

Coachric, you have an amazing talent for seeing only what you want to see.......Do you explain video of Ted Williams hitting as a mirage?.....

As for scapula load?.......I'm fairly certain you don't understand what it is, and does, for a hitter.....So, I agree that YOU should not attempt to teach it......

TRhit, have you ever listened to someone, trial and errored what they said, then made a decision as to the validity of their knowledge?.......

Should the College experience teach a student definite life theory or how to open their mind to forming their own theory?.....

quote:

There is no holy grail in hitting, just sound practices that work.

Coachric, here is a translation of what you are saying.......There is no holy grail in hitting, just my way......

Starting the loading process WITH THE LEAD ELBOW UP IN THE PITCH PLANE can restrict the loading even if you do/ try the so called "scap load". That is one issue with precocked and bat in 45 slot.

Bats in the 45 slot have the lead elbow up in the pitch plane at set up. Heavy muscled shoulders bind and the hands don't get hidden at times. It takes a pronounced hip coil to move these hands inside.GONZALEZ.

I do believe in one absolutes...YOU MUST COME FROM AN INSIDE PATH TO GET THE BARREL OUT. MOST KIDS HAVE NEVER COME FROM AN INSIDE PATH IN THEIR LIFE> MOST NEVER WILL

The reason the hands must get inside is so the barrel can get out in the zone. The barrel can be like the " ball on rope" feel with an inside out path but without it they cannot experience that.... without it you can count on "tugging the knob" / dragging the bat.

Bluedog

yes I have and it has nothing to do with college or no college--it has to do with knowing who you should listen to-- and I do not think you or linear are ones that I should listen to--my bad if that is the way it is sorry

As for the "holy grail" Linear speaks of I thought both you and he found it on your gurus site>

{Deleted by moderator}

Linear

Such a gentleman--again you answer things with your spin and condescending attitude

Do you speak to your paying customers in such a tone?

as for the OLD MAN--I have probably forgotten more than you will ever know but I dont go around calling people names as you do.

Open your mind to the real world and you might learn something.

You are such a fine person-- do you get along with the parents of the players you are supposedly teachin.

Still cannot get over the fact that you live in the same region and you don't know who Coach Pile is--that sure says alot for your knowledge of what happens in your region

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
...Do you speak to your paying customers in such a tone?

No, but I don't miss too many opportunities to tell someone who knows nothing but acts like he does how much of an idiot he is.

That's why I talk to you so much.

quote:

--it has to do with knowing who you should listen to--

TRhit, I will translate the above for you....You should listen to people who have the same belief system as you.....

It's not easy to say, I no longer believe what I have always taught is the best way.....My mind has been opened up to the fact that MLB hitters don't do what I have always believed and taught.....Some Coaches can do it, but most can't.....

Linear/Teacherman

There you go wuith the names again--sorts of says a lot about you

Bluedog--I dont need you to translate anything for me because you translate what you want to have others belive you said

The both of you never answer questions just accuse and ask questions---you both have yet to prove anything to me--I can read it all on THAT OTHER SITE if I ever want to

I am just sorry that I cannot agree that you both know as much as you claim you do--the way you guys degrade successful players and coaches one would think you would be teaching big league players and coaches how do do it the right way, I mean your way.

How can the MLB hitters be so good if they don't do it your way and they are, in your mind doing it all wrong. You mean to tell me that they are making millions and they dont know what they are doing?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
...How can the MLB hitters be so good if they don't do it your way...

Duh! They do exactly what we claim.

Keep talking so everyone will eventually know what we already do.

Bluedog, I really appreciate those responses.

The eyes statement came, as you may remember, from a post a few years ago I made about a player that was nails when doing drills and couldn't hit a lick when the ball came 60'6". Well, he had some type of depth problem in his vision. At that time, we discussed several opinions about eyes and tracking.

One of these days, I'm going to make it to the "Sunny South." My treat and we will discuss hitting. Of course, I'm the old dog and you know about the new tricks. I'm betting I'd have a great time.

This thread really does have a great amount of diversity in it. I think there is something for everyone to think about. While we don't all get along, I wanted to milk it for all it's worth. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment. LOL!

This thread does go on and on. That's okay. Other than having to wade through a fair amount of garbage, it's fun.

Without choosing sides, I suggest that what matters is the message. The messenger is much less important. A respected messenger might cause you to spend more time considering the message, but it is still the message that counts. Not considering the message because you don't like the messenger means that you will miss many good ideas. Evaluate the message first and foremost.

Education is learning how to sift through information to find that which matters. It doesn't matter if we're discussing quantum physics or hitting or how to grow flowers. Particularly in this day and age, information floods us everyday. If you don't have the ability to sift through it, you aren't educated. The fun part is that each of us gets to decide what is important and significant. The fact that I might decide some item of information is important, an item that you consider garbage, is what makes life interesting. And a different perception of what is important is not a reason to name call or disparage or put down or become offended or mad. Cherish the differences. How boring life would be if we were all the same.

quote:

The fact that I might decide some item of information is important, an item that you consider garbage, is what makes life interesting.

I appreciate you open approach.....it will pay off. I am glad I did not stop testing. To only have one model you trust means you will have to clone your hitters

Typical answer from those who don't understand how to use the center. You see, it's the proper use of the center that allows hitters to be different elsewhere.

It's the proper use of the center that allows Sheffield, Bonds and Tejada to have the arm action they have....or Molitor, McGwire, and Edmonds to have the arm action they don't have.

It's the proper use of the center that allows Craig Counsel to do what he does, Mo Vaughn to do what he does, or Yaz to do what he did.

Try as you may, the cookie cutter label doesn't fit.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
Typical answer from those who don't understand how to use the center. You see, it's the proper use of the center that allows hitters to be different elsewhere.

It's the proper use of the center that allows Sheffield, Bonds and Tejada to have the arm action they have....or Molitor, McGwire, and Edmonds to have the arm action they don't have.

It's the proper use of the center that allows Craig Counsel to do what he does, Mo Vaughn to do what he does, or Yaz to do what he did.

Try as you may, the cookie cutter label doesn't fit.

How about that Vince Young Linear?

Linear

"Typical answer from those who don't understand how to use the center".


Being a physics fundamentalist you should know what center infers. You must differentiate what happens there from how it occurs there and there is more to the later's story



The true center of anything can have force applied to it or stored elastically but cannot generate it. What you might feel happening in the center is happeing TO IT.

If this is not center for you then pick a new word as the anatomy and the action can't match.

That is why your one liners and " if you only knew stuff is so ineffective.

Do you tell your players " if you only knew how to use your center you could play " and then go home. You do that here everyday. Those are the eyes we see you through and we assume there is more.

I don't consider my understanding of the core weak

I do equally consider your lack of understanding of hand torque and its role at swing initiation to be non existant and sadly all because of your fear of Ny-man.

Ny-man nome's worst fear is for somebody in set-pro to report to the master that there is a lack of submission from smurfdom. I believe communism fell with the Berlin wall in 1990.


Hand torque is a negative then positive move just like hip coil, scap load. Ignoring it is laughable and the reason the middle doesn't work for many. It is a part of the system clearly used by the greatest hitters and yes many amateurs. IF YOU TOOK HAND TORQUE AT SWING INITIATION AWAY MANY MLB PLAYERS COULD NOT HIT A LICK. They are very capable of using it.

WHy you think they can scap load and hip coil and cannot hand torque will remain a mystery explained only by " you don't understand it"

Rear scap loading helps get the hands on an inside out path. If you don't believe in a CHP then you are lost. It stretches and connects the lead shoulder.

Hand torque primes the flexors of the forearm and it is another negative move storing energy in the system early in the preswing.

The fact that they prime better , out of plane, helps the core. The fact that tey prime better out of plane, gets the front foot down, limits and counter balances the stride.

Your missing the whole sequence of MLB swing that you guys once promoted. Why the shift to glorified slap hitting?

Primed forearms do not make you slower.

Badger all you want Swingbuster.

I'm not going to tell you how to use the center.

If you have to use your arms to get the center to work you're in left field.

Study up.

quote:

Originally posted by darkmoon:

How about that Vince Young Linear?

Great college player.

Will be less than Michael Vick in the pros.....and that makes him marginal.