It is Past Time to Face Reality

James G posted:

PitchingFan posted:

I have come to realize that I do not think we live in a society that values life.  We say we do but that is very limited.  I do not plan to get into a political, religious, or philosophical debate.  But would love to hear your opinions.  The numbers on so many levels about our society do not show that we value the life of others from the unborn to the sick to the elderly to the vulnerable.  There are those who value it on some level but do not on other levels.  They value it in relationship to their immediate family but do not for others.  I do not consider myself and deep thinker but some of the varying posts I read on here and other places make me wonder where we truly are as a society.

I don't disagree with much of that at all, and I don't think it's necessarily anyone's fault. Our society and lifestyle is pretty much focused on "me" and family only. We are artificially disconnected from the world and country, really only seeing things on the news and social media. 

But not valuing life doesn't mean your own life has to be ruined. What many of us are saying is that the response can be local. People's livelihood and future in Montana (for example) doesn't have to be impacted so negatively because of some hotspot states thousands of miles away. 

I am pretty sure that Montana doesnt have a stay at home order and more than likely in some places its business as usual. 

I think  2019&21 Dad did a good job with his post.

CTbballDad posted:

Man, this board will never be the same.  One poster basically telling another, let me know what you think once your wife or kid dies; people don't value life because they want to go to work and provide for their families, etc.

People have different views, that's what a free society promotes.  Yet, we cast stones and question when they don't match yours.

I saw a poll yesterday showing 30% are worried most about the finances and career. 4% are worried about getting sick. I can completely understand someone freaking out watching what they built blown up. Imagine someone with a business on the ropes in 2008 who built into something that should sustain their family for the rest of the career now coming apart at the seams.

The average small business has twenty-seven days of cash. I’ve talked with clients (in manufacturing with big equipment leasing costs) who said the loans will only provide enough to pay their fixed expenses. One told me assuming he survives he may have to take a second mortgage on his home to bring back employees. 

A large number of restaurants won’t make it. Hospitality employs a lot of people. No one is going to rush to dine out when this is over. 

There are a lot of angles to look at this situation. When sports come back should be at the bottom of priorities (other then low paid minor leaguers who could be struggling).

What some fail to realize is this isn't an alive vs death trade-off. Of course we don't want anybody to die. But there are lives behind the populations and states where there isn't a hotspot. Where people have lost jobs, may lose homes, face poverty, abuse, addicition, hunger, and more. Which has always happened. Those lives cannot and should not be having decisions made for them based on something that statistically isn't affecting them, at least not yet. 

For those thinking that lockdowns will end in a month or two if everyone does their job and stays home- it won't. That's the problem here. The virus will always be here, it has been here longer than some think, and will return. Because of that, we need to make decisions that are best for individual people, families, and populations based on what is feasible. Not a one size fits all national approach. 

A person in a less impacted town, who suddenly has their livelihood ripped from them because of unemployment can rightfully feel a certain way vs worrying about a death somewhere else. There is nothing wrong with that, that's their livelihood and means to support loved ones.  

James G posted:

A person in a less impacted town, who suddenly has their livelihood ripped from them because of unemployment can rightfully feel a certain way vs worrying about a death somewhere else. There is nothing wrong with that, that's their livelihood and means to support loved ones.  

 

Fine, but that is worrying about "me," and not about the lives of others.  In fact, the federal government did leave it to the states, against the advice of the CDC.   If states made decisions, that was presumably based on local conditions.  Our local golf course is still open. 

RJM posted:

A large number of restaurants won’t make it. Hospitality employs a lot of people. No one is going to rush to dine out when this is over.

I hope there are restaurants left, because I for one will be rushing out to dine.  I'm really tired of my own cooking all the time!

Ugh.

anotherparent posted:

James G posted:

A person in a less impacted town, who suddenly has their livelihood ripped from them because of unemployment can rightfully feel a certain way vs worrying about a death somewhere else. There is nothing wrong with that, that's their livelihood and means to support loved ones.  

 

Fine, but that is worrying about "me," and not about the lives of others.  In fact, the federal government did leave it to the states, against the advice of the CDC.   If states made decisions, that was presumably based on local conditions.  Our local golf course is still open. 

RJM posted:

A large number of restaurants won’t make it. Hospitality employs a lot of people. No one is going to rush to dine out when this is over.

I hope there are restaurants left, because I for one will be rushing out to dine.  I'm really tired of my own cooking all the time!

The implementation of getting back to normal will likely include many precautions. It will be a while before dining out returns. Dining out and social distancing aren’t much of a match. 

I saw a restaurateur on the news yesterday. He said with social distancing his 200 seat restaurant would be a 60 seat restaurant. He said it wouldn’t pay the rent.

James G posted:

For those thinking that lockdowns will end in a month or two if everyone does their job and stays home- it won't. That's the problem here. The virus will always be here, it has been here longer than some think, and will return. Because of that, we need to make decisions that are best for individual people, families, and populations based on what is feasible. Not a one size fits all national approach. 

 

 

James - if we have a national approach that tests EVERYONE, we will be able to have more of an individual approach (than per state) AND be safer, because we will know who has it and who doesn't. Therefore, we can treat people differently based on their condition. Those who aren't infected could go to work and some places of business could re-open. People would have trust in knowledge. But because we are flying blind due to lack of testing, we have to take this one size fits all approach. It doesn't have to be that way. For those who say it's not possible or too expensive, look at the alternative. I'd suggest that the alternative is much more expensive and much more difficult. 

2019&21 Dad posted:

 

James G posted:

For those thinking that lockdowns will end in a month or two if everyone does their job and stays home- it won't. That's the problem here. The virus will always be here, it has been here longer than some think, and will return. Because of that, we need to make decisions that are best for individual people, families, and populations based on what is feasible. Not a one size fits all national approach. 

 

 

James - if we have a national approach that tests EVERYONE, we will be able to have more of an individual approach (than per state) AND be safer, because we will know who has it and who doesn't. Therefore, we can treat people differently based on their condition. Those who aren't infected could go to work and some places of business could re-open. People would have trust in knowledge. But because we are flying blind due to lack of testing, we have to take this one size fits all approach. It doesn't have to be that way. For those who say it's not possible or too expensive, look at the alternative. I'd suggest that the alternative is much more expensive and much more difficult. 

I COMPLETELY agree with you that needs to happen. But that won't be happening for a very long time. So until then, I wish we could locally look at real time data (not models that are fubar) and not deaths (because that is a lagging statistic). My opinion we need to find a solution to return somewhat next month, not in a year. If I had a magic wand I would model Sweden completely. But that's another topic (why are we modeling the response of the countries with the worst outcomes instead of modeling countries with the best). 

The fact that they are saying MLB may return in May, gives me hope

https://www.foxnews.com/sports...games-arizona-report

Until there's a vaccine or a proven cure, there shouldn't be any expectation that things will open back up until we've got herd immunity as a nation, which could take a year or more.  Opening back up prior to this would just cause a new surge in cases.  Prove me wrong.

^ Hope to 100%.  

The saying that we don't value life, just makes no sense.  I know people don't want to compare to the flu but it works in the analogy that we lose 10-15K every year to the flu.  Every year.  Do you not value life because you go out during flu season?  No, it's just something we have accepted happens.  We could all stay in all winter and likely lose waaaay less.  Does not mean people don't value life.  Come on.  And just because there are those of us that think life will resume and should long before next year doesn't make us terrible people, just means we have a different opinion.  It's almost like people are hoping this thing becomes overwhelming.  I am hoping and believing it won't.

2019&21 Dad posted:

 

James G posted:

For those thinking that lockdowns will end in a month or two if everyone does their job and stays home- it won't. That's the problem here. The virus will always be here, it has been here longer than some think, and will return. Because of that, we need to make decisions that are best for individual people, families, and populations based on what is feasible. Not a one size fits all national approach. 

 

 

James - if we have a national approach that tests EVERYONE, we will be able to have more of an individual approach (than per state) AND be safer, because we will know who has it and who doesn't. Therefore, we can treat people differently based on their condition. Those who aren't infected could go to work and some places of business could re-open. People would have trust in knowledge. But because we are flying blind due to lack of testing, we have to take this one size fits all approach. It doesn't have to be that way. For those who say it's not possible or too expensive, look at the alternative. I'd suggest that the alternative is much more expensive and much more difficult. 

Hmmmm. For most people who own businesses .... Going bankrupt and losing your business and everything you have versus being sick for a couple of weeks with minuscule odds of dying. 

It’s easy for the paper pushers who can work from home to say the only thing to do is stay home.

This isn’t my situation. But I have clients who are in this position. If they’re not at their business it’s dark.

Food for thought.  According to the current CDC provisional numbers, there are over 95K fewer deaths (17%) since 2/1/2020 this year than the average of the same time period the last three years.  Obviously this can be about many factors (and aren't finalized either), but that number kind of jumped out at me. 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/COVID19/index.htm

I read something somewhere that since quarantine took effect, the number of heart attacks and strokes has gone way down, and doctors haven't figured out why; they would have expected all the stress to have pushed the numbers higher.

My opinion is that the sooner we all practice social distancing, wear masks and gloves when going to grocery stores and the like, exercise, and shut down everything but truly essential services, the sooner we recover, the less lives are lost, and the less money we lose in the long run. It's not supposed to be easy, but delaying gratification is the way out of this mess.  

    Now i have to get on the phone with my 90yo mother and convince her not to go and get her hair done next week...to say she is at risk is putting it mildly. 

She is very sweet, but stubborn.

fenwaysouth posted:

...   There is little margin for error here as this is life or death.   I'm more than willing to listen, or read (any) gov't plan for how to avoid this thing if it makes sense.   So, far nobody has come up with a better plan on turning the tide, so yes I'm going along with our govt's plan.   So far it is Virus 76,000....World 0.   Those numbers would be a lot bigger if our govt had not taken the initial steps it did and when it did.   We barely know how to treat the symptoms never mind come up with a vaccine.   Erring on the side of caution is probably wise.  

I don't think people are being soft but I do think people are pushing their luck and doing stupid things.   I've driven around my community (to get groceries) and I've seen some really, really stupid things.   Crowds of people playing basketball in the public parks.   I've seen some local Country Clubs that are open and people are playing tennis & golf.   My own tennis club asked a few of its members via email  if we should open up because the local Country Clubs are open.  My response...hell no!  Are you kidding me?   For those people making a conscious (stupid) decision to take a large risk to play hoops, golf, tennis, any activity that involves people (besides getting food & essentials) during the height of a worldwide pandemic I wish them well, but I'm convinced this is Darwin's theory of evolution at work.  There is only one choice at this time...stay at home!

As always, JMO.  Stay safe!

Fenway, admittedly, my wife and i have been taking some liberties that we feel is reasonably safe to ourselves and others but helps keep us from feeling completely shuttered and helps keep us staying relatively positive through this thing.  I'm sure this is largely due to the area we live... while in California, we are in a fairly remote area on the Central Coast, surrounded by even more remote land and wilderness.  Our town is a population of about 7K, our county has less than 100 cases with 1 death.  

Our state is on lockdown.  The liberties we are taking are many of the things you refer to and I am certainly open to learning more and adjusting to what we should be doing.  We walk the neighborhood every day.  We go out and jog or bike every day, rarely coming in the vicinity of any other people and allowing proper spacing when we do.  We have played tennis a few times at the local school - 4 courts and finding that we were either alone or three courts away from anyone else.  We played golf once - the local course seems to have taken smart precautions.  You pay through a window where the card machine is cleaned after each use, we walked (didn't use cart) and each hole has a foam cylinder in it so you never pull the flag or reach in the cup for your ball.  I don't think we ever came within 50 yds of anyone aside from the guy in the window with the mask and wipes.  On weekends, we have been going to fairly remote hiking locations (but not difficult for emergency personnel to reach) for one day of scenic hiking.  Again, we rarely run across people.

Interested in your thoughts and anyone else that can shed light on this being a problem.  There are definitely beaches and hiking trails that are too easily accessed and, therefore, often have too many people congregating.  Those, we avoid.  Aside from recognizing that anyone that comes to the courts goes through the same gate (and same handle) and similarly, same window at the course, what are we missing?

On weekends, we have been going to fairly remote hiking locations 

From what I  know, which ain't much, the only danger is that you take a fall and require medical help. In that case, depending on where you live, you are taking personnel away from CoVid patients to treat your preventable injury, and you're also potentially greatly increasing your own potential exposure by going to a hospital or doctor's office.

Here in NYC it's much harder to take a walk and maintain 6' of distance.  Nonetheless, I was walking in Central Park pretty much every day through last Friday, when my wife convinced me that the city was reaching its apex and it was time for me to stay indoors for the same reasons mentioned above.  

I don't see harm in golfing or playing tennis, as they follow the guidelines of social distancing.  You're outdoors, fairly separated and you're in groups less than 10.  I've gone golfing once and to the range countless times, if strength in numbers helps you feel less guilty.

JCG brings up a good point.  I was going to try to do some painting that required me get on a ladder.  Then I heard suggestions of doing such activity, that could result in injury and a potential trip to the hospital.  Shucks, I guess the painting must be put on hold...

A guy in San Clemente was arrested for surfing by himself.  This seems like going too far to me.  If people are worried about catching a virus from a guy surfing in the Pacific Ocean they should stay at home and not put themselves at risk.

Smitty28 posted:

A guy in San Clemente was arrested for surfing by himself.  This seems like going too far to me.  If people are worried about catching a virus from a guy surfing in the Pacific Ocean they should stay at home and not put themselves at risk.

Saw that. Then this too https://ourcommunitynow.com/ne...istancing-guidelines

Getting dangerously close to blurring some constitutional rights here

Smitty28 posted:

A guy in San Clemente was arrested for surfing by himself.  This seems like going too far to me.  If people are worried about catching a virus from a guy surfing in the Pacific Ocean they should stay at home and not put themselves at risk.

It's not because he was surfing by himself. CTbballDad made the point. If he should get hurt it could be a potential visit to the hospital. Putting yourself in danger is putting others as well.

Currently, I’m at my home in Maine. I’m what Mainers call a Masshole. But I headed for Maine as soon as sports started shutting down.i could see what was coming. 

The governor had to close the beaches after last weekend. Too many Massholes came to Maine beach towns and beaches to walk around for the day. Massachusetts has a big COVID problem. Mainers don’t want them here. 

I get caught up in where I’m from from having lived in both places plus CA for twenty-two years and PA for eighteen. When friends drive to MA to my house the first thing I tell them is I don’t want to hear about the five car accidents you were almost in over the last hour. It’s life here. When I’ve been in Maine I swear at drivers when I get over the state line to Massachusetts. 

As I tell friends when I get back to MA I have to get my FU back on. 

Surfing's allowed in Hawaii, hanging out at the beach isn't. The beach parks are closed, with parking lots roped off, so people have to park on nearby streets or highways and hike to the surf spots.  No lifeguards on duty.  Accidents are a real possibility especially at body and boogie board surf spots like Sandy's, which is notorious for causing injury.  Something my boys are paying attention to, but they're still surfing the quieter spots.  

Mom and I are  in denial.

TPM posted:

Smitty28 posted:

A guy in San Clemente was arrested for surfing by himself.  This seems like going too far to me.  If people are worried about catching a virus from a guy surfing in the Pacific Ocean they should stay at home and not put themselves at risk.

It's not because he was surfing by himself. CTbballDad made the point. If he should get hurt it could be a potential visit to the hospital. Putting yourself in danger is putting others as well.

 

At some level everything is dangerous.

James G posted:

Smitty28 posted:

A guy in San Clemente was arrested for surfing by himself.  This seems like going too far to me.  If people are worried about catching a virus from a guy surfing in the Pacific Ocean they should stay at home and not put themselves at risk.

Saw that. Then this too https://ourcommunitynow.com/ne...istancing-guidelines

Getting dangerously close to blurring some constitutional rights here

Wow. Police were acting like idiots. Bullies. Terrible. And the police in this case were actually acting in a dangerous manner. The police were NOT compliant with social distancing. Talk about lack of common sense. Lack of common sense is far too prevalent in USA. 

cabbagedad posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

...   There is little margin for error here as this is life or death.   I'm more than willing to listen, or read (any) gov't plan for how to avoid this thing if it makes sense.   So, far nobody has come up with a better plan on turning the tide, so yes I'm going along with our govt's plan.   So far it is Virus 76,000....World 0.   Those numbers would be a lot bigger if our govt had not taken the initial steps it did and when it did.   We barely know how to treat the symptoms never mind come up with a vaccine.   Erring on the side of caution is probably wise.  

I don't think people are being soft but I do think people are pushing their luck and doing stupid things.   I've driven around my community (to get groceries) and I've seen some really, really stupid things.   Crowds of people playing basketball in the public parks.   I've seen some local Country Clubs that are open and people are playing tennis & golf.   My own tennis club asked a few of its members via email  if we should open up because the local Country Clubs are open.  My response...hell no!  Are you kidding me?   For those people making a conscious (stupid) decision to take a large risk to play hoops, golf, tennis, any activity that involves people (besides getting food & essentials) during the height of a worldwide pandemic I wish them well, but I'm convinced this is Darwin's theory of evolution at work.  There is only one choice at this time...stay at home!

As always, JMO.  Stay safe!

Fenway, admittedly, my wife and i have been taking some liberties that we feel is reasonably safe to ourselves and others but helps keep us from feeling completely shuttered and helps keep us staying relatively positive through this thing.  I'm sure this is largely due to the area we live... while in California, we are in a fairly remote area on the Central Coast, surrounded by even more remote land and wilderness.  Our town is a population of about 7K, our county has less than 100 cases with 1 death.  

Our state is on lockdown.  The liberties we are taking are many of the things you refer to and I am certainly open to learning more and adjusting to what we should be doing.  We walk the neighborhood every day.  We go out and jog or bike every day, rarely coming in the vicinity of any other people and allowing proper spacing when we do.  We have played tennis a few times at the local school - 4 courts and finding that we were either alone or three courts away from anyone else.  We played golf once - the local course seems to have taken smart precautions.  You pay through a window where the card machine is cleaned after each use, we walked (didn't use cart) and each hole has a foam cylinder in it so you never pull the flag or reach in the cup for your ball.  I don't think we ever came within 50 yds of anyone aside from the guy in the window with the mask and wipes.  On weekends, we have been going to fairly remote hiking locations (but not difficult for emergency personnel to reach) for one day of scenic hiking.  Again, we rarely run across people.

Interested in your thoughts and anyone else that can shed light on this being a problem.  There are definitely beaches and hiking trails that are too easily accessed and, therefore, often have too many people congregating.  Those, we avoid.  Aside from recognizing that anyone that comes to the courts goes through the same gate (and same handle) and similarly, same window at the course, what are we missing?

 

Nothing. You are behaved😇

Smitty28 posted:

TPM posted:

Smitty28 posted:

A guy in San Clemente was arrested for surfing by himself.  This seems like going too far to me.  If people are worried about catching a virus from a guy surfing in the Pacific Ocean they should stay at home and not put themselves at risk.

It's not because he was surfing by himself. CTbballDad made the point. If he should get hurt it could be a potential visit to the hospital. Putting yourself in danger is putting others as well.

 

At some level everything is dangerous.

I hit send too fast.  What I meant to say is, at some level everything is dangerous.  My mother-in-law cut her finger pretty badly on a knife while loading the dish washer.  My wife slipped in the back yard and got a concussion.  I've cut myself numerous times clipping hedges.  Not to mention what can happen in a car (accident), walking (getting hit by a car), eating (choking hazard)... the list goes on. Meanwhile, I can go to the 7-11, Costco, gas station, the gun shop, but I can't buy furniture store, buy clothing or something for the house.  I'm ok with restrictions as long as they make sense and as long as there is some objective metric for when they will end.

I thought the point of restrictions was to flatten the curve.  That's fine, but when did keeping people safe from other things in life become the goal?  It looks to me like politicians are falling over themselves to put restrictions, however intrusive and illogical, on people so they can look like they are doing something.  JMO.

57special posted:

    Now i have to get on the phone with my 90yo mother and convince her not to go and get her hair done next week...to say she is at risk is putting it mildly. 

She is very sweet, but stubborn.

    

Around here (VA), all the hair salons and barber shops are closed (considered non-essential businesses) as well as nail salons (whatever will my wife do? ).  Oh, the horrors! 

Smitty28 posted:

Smitty28 posted:

TPM posted:

Smitty28 posted:

A guy in San Clemente was arrested for surfing by himself.  This seems like going too far to me.  If people are worried about catching a virus from a guy surfing in the Pacific Ocean they should stay at home and not put themselves at risk.

It's not because he was surfing by himself. CTbballDad made the point. If he should get hurt it could be a potential visit to the hospital. Putting yourself in danger is putting others as well.

 

At some level everything is dangerous.

I hit send too fast.  What I meant to say is, at some level everything is dangerous.  My mother-in-law cut her finger pretty badly on a knife while loading the dish washer.  My wife slipped in the back yard and got a concussion.  I've cut myself numerous times clipping hedges.  Not to mention what can happen in a car (accident), walking (getting hit by a car), eating (choking hazard)... the list goes on. Meanwhile, I can go to the 7-11, Costco, gas station, the gun shop, but I can't buy furniture store, buy clothing or something for the house.  I'm ok with restrictions as long as they make sense and as long as there is some objective metric for when they will end.

I thought the point of restrictions was to flatten the curve.  That's fine, but when did keeping people safe from other things in life become the goal?  It looks to me like politicians are falling over themselves to put restrictions, however intrusive and illogical, on people so they can look like they are doing something.  JMO.

Almost 1800 people in the US died today and the day isn't over yet.  

That makes sense to me, I cant speak for others. All that other stuff is just meaningless right now. 

FoxDad posted:

57special posted:

    Now i have to get on the phone with my 90yo mother and convince her not to go and get her hair done next week...to say she is at risk is putting it mildly. 

She is very sweet, but stubborn.

    

Around here (VA), all the hair salons and barber shops are closed (considered non-essential businesses) as well as nail salons (whatever will my wife do? ).  Oh, the horrors! 

I looked in the mirror a little while ago. Hair salons are getting more essential by the day. I was overdue before I couldn’t go. I’ve struck ski bum hippie. 

TPM posted:

Almost 1800 people in the US died today and the day isn't over yet.  

That makes sense to me, I cant speak for others. All that other stuff is just meaningless right now. 

 

In 2017, an average of 7,708 deaths occurred each day. January, February, and December were the months with the highest average daily number of deaths (8,478, 8,351, and 8,344, respectively). June, July, and August were the months with the lowest average daily number of deaths (7,298, 7,157, and 7,158, respectively).

Source: National Vital Statistics System. Underlying cause of death data, 1999–2017. https://wonder.cdc.gov/ucd-icd10.html.

ABSORBER posted:

TPM posted:

Almost 1800 people in the US died today and the day isn't over yet.  

That makes sense to me, I cant speak for others. All that other stuff is just meaningless right now. 

 

In 2017, an average of 7,708 deaths occurred each day. January, February, and December were the months with the highest average daily number of deaths (8,478, 8,351, and 8,344, respectively). June, July, and August were the months with the lowest average daily number of deaths (7,298, 7,157, and 7,158, respectively).

Source: National Vital Statistics System. Underlying cause of death data, 1999–2017. https://wonder.cdc.gov/ucd-icd10.html.

I will try again. 

About 2000 people died today.

They didn't die in childbirth or by giving birth to a child they didn't die in a plane, train or car, they didn't die by suicide, they were not murdered, or died of old age.

They died due to a devastating virus that if taken seriously months ago, or had been better prepared when those in charge warned last year, more than likely they might still be alive. 

“They died due to a devastating virus that if taken seriously months ago, or had been better prepared when those in charge warned last year, more than likely they might still be alive.”

TPM—

I love you and respect your wealth of baseball knowledge.  I appreciate your presence here, everyday!  But I have to set the record straight. NO ONE, except the CCP (maybe) knew what was going on with this virus last year. The US government made decisions based on information that was provided by the WHO (CCP). If you look at the WHO Twitter account, and follow the tweets from late last year into January, February, March you will see what was available, as far as information goes.  I encourage you (and everyone else) to do so.  Twitter, as you know, has a date stamp, so there’s no denying the chain of events as they unfolded.  Unfortunately the WHO blew it.  

I saw a report I’ll look for tomorrow had China been honest about COVID 95% of the related deaths in the world may have been avoided. Investigations are revealing 42,000 to 46,000 people died in Wuhan, not 3,000. When things got bad the whistleblowing Chinese doctor “died” and the Western press was expelled from the country.

Due to lack of truth coming out of China and the WHO Mayer DiBlasio, the NYC health director and other city council people were telling New Yorkers as late as the first week of March to get out and live their lives. There’s nothing to fear. 

I think there is plenty to fear, it comes down to how you handle it. I believe the steps that have been taken are more then enough, I would be willing to argue that maybe they are to much but to some degree that is splitting hairs. 

When I hear arguments or recommendations that we should be shutting down until there is a vaccine I find that insane. When I hear schools are considering not starting again in the fall that is at best ridiculously early and more likely just dumb. When I hear we should be in shutdown until EVERYONE has had a test...again just not reasonable. 

There are no promises in life, some of us are going to die. I hope it isn't me or my loved ones...but a country, a world and planet can't just stop because there is a crisis. That is dumb.

What we need to while working on a vaccine and testing is find ways to keep people alive during the short term. We have 1 million drugs and or different medicines... lets get trying them. I would bet lots and lots of money some or several of the current drugs we have in pipeline can slow down the virus and let a higher percentage of people live through getting it. Get the labs working overtime or how about around the clock? We have ventilators being made, tests being made, masks being made...combine these things with the current social distancing and this becomes manageable. We need to get healthy young people working safely but working. 

I can read a thousand places on this site alone about life is hard, baseball is hard - suck it up or quit. I fell the same way about this. The virus is hard, we need to beat it, we will beat it but we need to keep moving forward to accomplish that not sit in our living rooms and wait for it to pass.  

Time to put your big boy pants on people. 

TPM posted:

ABSORBER posted:

TPM posted:

Almost 1800 people in the US died today and the day isn't over yet.  

That makes sense to me, I cant speak for others. All that other stuff is just meaningless right now. 

 

In 2017, an average of 7,708 deaths occurred each day. January, February, and December were the months with the highest average daily number of deaths (8,478, 8,351, and 8,344, respectively). June, July, and August were the months with the lowest average daily number of deaths (7,298, 7,157, and 7,158, respectively).

Source: National Vital Statistics System. Underlying cause of death data, 1999–2017. https://wonder.cdc.gov/ucd-icd10.html.

I will try again. 

About 2000 people died today.

They didn't die in childbirth or by giving birth to a child they didn't die in a plane, train or car, they didn't die by suicide, they were not murdered, or died of old age.

They died due to a devastating virus that if taken seriously months ago, or had been better prepared when those in charge warned last year, more than likely they might still be alive. 

 

I disagree.  Almost 2000 people died yesterday and nearly 13k so far.  As callus as this sounds, most of them were elderly (above 80, or had not taken care of themselves by allowing their weight to rise out of control.  They smoked like a chimney, or didn't take their diabetes and heart medicine.  Yes, there have been a very sad few who were otherwise healthy, and young that succumbed to this illness.  But that number is a fraction of the young, healthy people that succumb to the flu every year.

Nonetheless, an entire country took a stand for them(the weakest among us if you will), stayed home for them, gave up their way of life for them.  In the process, millions lost their jobs, their businesses, their way to keep their homes, ability to feed their family.  Spouses and children took beatings in increased domestic violence, crime went up with people out of work and prisoners released.  Millions more won't be able to pay for their children's education, family vacations, or a new vehicle they were planning.

For those in this forum that suggested people in this country don't value life and the only thing that counts is the death toll, shame on you. Or, I pity you if that's the depth of your understanding.

People say if you have your health, you have everything.  Well, my country has stood up: "the haves" sacrificed greatly for "the have nots".  At some point, my prediction is May 1 for areas largely unaffected areas(and the south either way, because we still value freedom above most everything) to begin the reopen.  June 1 we will be back in business as a country, but we won't ever return to exactly where we were.  Yeah, my country gave up their way of life, and decided that was worth it to protect those that were at risk.  Tell me again about not valuing life, or how the death toll is the only thing that matters.

TPM posted:

ABSORBER posted:

TPM posted:

Almost 1800 people in the US died today and the day isn't over yet.  

That makes sense to me, I cant speak for others. All that other stuff is just meaningless right now. 

 

In 2017, an average of 7,708 deaths occurred each day. January, February, and December were the months with the highest average daily number of deaths (8,478, 8,351, and 8,344, respectively). June, July, and August were the months with the lowest average daily number of deaths (7,298, 7,157, and 7,158, respectively).

Source: National Vital Statistics System. Underlying cause of death data, 1999–2017. https://wonder.cdc.gov/ucd-icd10.html.

I will try again. 

About 2000 people died today.

They didn't die in childbirth or by giving birth to a child they didn't die in a plane, train or car, they didn't die by suicide, they were not murdered, or died of old age.

They died due to a devastating virus that if taken seriously months ago, or had been better prepared when those in charge warned last year, more than likely they might still be alive. 

 Don’t really care to argue, but up here in the Treasure Coast the number of suicides is way up. A nurse friend mentioned it Monday that they are getting at least two or three times the number they usually get. Another friend that is a sheriff deputy told me a majority of his calls right now are welfare checks that end up being suicide and regular suicide calls. I have no statistics, data, or links to back this up. Just a couple close friends that don’t know each other both telling me the numbers are much higher than usual

Thanks for that, Pedaldad! That shows me there are people in the world that actually have some common sense and that gives me hope. In my drive to work this morning I heard on the radio about some states getting ready to make it illegal to venture out in our free country without a mask. All this after hearing time and again about the shortages of PPD for our medical professionals on the front lines. But that’s OK, we can make them ourselves...

cabbagedad posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

...   There is little margin for error here as this is life or death.   I'm more than willing to listen, or read (any) gov't plan for how to avoid this thing if it makes sense.   So, far nobody has come up with a better plan on turning the tide, so yes I'm going along with our govt's plan.   So far it is Virus 76,000....World 0.   Those numbers would be a lot bigger if our govt had not taken the initial steps it did and when it did.   We barely know how to treat the symptoms never mind come up with a vaccine.   Erring on the side of caution is probably wise.  

I don't think people are being soft but I do think people are pushing their luck and doing stupid things.   I've driven around my community (to get groceries) and I've seen some really, really stupid things.   Crowds of people playing basketball in the public parks.   I've seen some local Country Clubs that are open and people are playing tennis & golf.   My own tennis club asked a few of its members via email  if we should open up because the local Country Clubs are open.  My response...hell no!  Are you kidding me?   For those people making a conscious (stupid) decision to take a large risk to play hoops, golf, tennis, any activity that involves people (besides getting food & essentials) during the height of a worldwide pandemic I wish them well, but I'm convinced this is Darwin's theory of evolution at work.  There is only one choice at this time...stay at home!

As always, JMO.  Stay safe!

Fenway, admittedly, my wife and i have been taking some liberties that we feel is reasonably safe to ourselves and others but helps keep us from feeling completely shuttered and helps keep us staying relatively positive through this thing.  I'm sure this is largely due to the area we live... while in California, we are in a fairly remote area on the Central Coast, surrounded by even more remote land and wilderness.  Our town is a population of about 7K, our county has less than 100 cases with 1 death.  

Our state is on lockdown.  The liberties we are taking are many of the things you refer to and I am certainly open to learning more and adjusting to what we should be doing.  We walk the neighborhood every day.  We go out and jog or bike every day, rarely coming in the vicinity of any other people and allowing proper spacing when we do.  We have played tennis a few times at the local school - 4 courts and finding that we were either alone or three courts away from anyone else.  We played golf once - the local course seems to have taken smart precautions.  You pay through a window where the card machine is cleaned after each use, we walked (didn't use cart) and each hole has a foam cylinder in it so you never pull the flag or reach in the cup for your ball.  I don't think we ever came within 50 yds of anyone aside from the guy in the window with the mask and wipes.  On weekends, we have been going to fairly remote hiking locations (but not difficult for emergency personnel to reach) for one day of scenic hiking.  Again, we rarely run across people.

Interested in your thoughts and anyone else that can shed light on this being a problem.  There are definitely beaches and hiking trails that are too easily accessed and, therefore, often have too many people congregating.  Those, we avoid.  Aside from recognizing that anyone that comes to the courts goes through the same gate (and same handle) and similarly, same window at the course, what are we missing?

 

Cabbage - My two cents...Its not necessarily what you are doing, it is where you are doing it and who is around.   Like you and your wife, my wife and I have gone on long walks with the dog, hikes, and played tennis in a controlled environment with just the two of us and nobody around.   It sounds like you are doing the same things, and I totally understand...very low risk, high reward.  We intend to keep doing what we're doing (staying away from other people) and it sounds like that is working for you too.   

The people that I referenced  (basketball, tennis and golf players)  in my earlier post were congregating/socializing as if there was nothing going on in the world.  Golf and tennis can be a very low risk activity for Covid-9, but these 4 people (I know them) were sitting on benches next to each other talking away.   Basketball is a high contact, many people in a small space kind of sport.   There were about 15 guys playing hardcore half-court 5 on 5 and then rotating games from what I could tell.   There was a lot of sweat and a lot of contact.   They are putting themselves at risk as well as you, me and the rest of society.  My point was that not a lot of people are using common sense.

I don't intend to come off as a social Coronavirus Nazi, but it irritates me that some people in my community are just not listening to local policies and national guidelines .  These risky people are the ones prolonging the spread of the virus.  I don't know about everybody else, but I'd really like to get back to normal.   The people not following very simple and common sense guidelines are going to prolong this thing.

Bottom line is I'm only going near people when I have to, and that only involves grocery stores (wearing a mask) at this point in time.   

Stay safe in your corner of the world!  It sounds like a wonderful place.  

anotherparent posted:

Old_school, how about we re-frame toughness and softness this way?

Tough are the medical professionals who are working overtime to help save sick people.  Those people, right now, are being unbearably tough.  Scientists who are working day and night to find cures and vaccines, they are tough. 

Epidemiologists who produce models based on the data that they have, trying to help everyone as best they can, knowing that they will be criticized when new data becomes available and their old models are out of date - those people are pretty tough, too.  Kind of like umpires who can't quite see what happened, but need to make the call on the spot anyway, even if replay later shows they were wrong.

The rest of us need to be tough and disciplined, and follow the guidelines that are the best that we have right now, based on data that changes daily, for the good of everyone in the country.  It's not about you, it's about everyone. 

It's really sad not to be playing baseball, but we have to suck it up and deal with it.  Be mentally tough.  Train as best you can, on your own, knowing that baseball will be back.

Who, in this picture, is being soft?

See we agree that it is about everyone, where we disagree I would guess is the proper course of action. 

I have not offered any criticism of our first responders or medical people. I don't believe the projections, not because this isn't a severe problem that needs attention but because the models are flawed and based off worst case guesses, with lack of data, I would argue intentionally skewed to show the info they want shown and don't make any allowances for progress or solutions during the process.

IMO the models show a runaway train with nothing being done to slow it down or turn it...which is just an inaccurate assumption. I also believe these same experts missed the forecast at the beginning and now are overreacting to the correction. Seldom is anything ever as good or bad as it appears to be, that holds true with almost anything in life and it seems to be also the case with this Chinese virus. 

I also believe people make bad decision under stress, I believe people learn how to deal with stress over time and learn to manage their actions to be successful a these time. Highly productive athletes, business people, crisis management, emergency room personnel, first responders are all examples of this. Some of it is inherent to people others it is learned and or grown over time. I am not sure that academics who make living speculating about things are as strong in this area. 

This has nothing to do with baseball, it has everything do with how much we are going to attempt to change a country and a world. I believe if we aren't careful the cure is going to be worse then the virus, we may have already done it.