Lets Talk Pitching - Ask/Discussion about pitching from professional instructor

First baseballinstruct I think it is a great thread you started and it is good to have a place where questions can be asked and answered. You certainly have the resume and it is great you are here.  

I thought the same thing as JH when I saw your post regarding post recovery. 4-5 years ago it was considered appropriate to run 2-3 miles after pitching "to get the blood flowing for recovery and removing the lactic acid" and it was standard practice and it made sense at the time. Well now 5 years later and with more studies done on the subject distance running for baseball players is not considered the optimum, there is no such thing as lactic acid caused soreness in pitching. Same thing with weighted balls, lifting for pitchers, icing, 120 ft throwing limit,  etc.

My point is that I think it is important for you, if plan to do this as a profession to read up and discuss with the real leaders in the field. Ron Wolforth, Kyle Body (driveline baseball) Eric Cressey, Bret Strom,  are just a few that are taking a hard look at what has been done in the past and questioning and challenging what athletes are told to do, "just because that is the way it is done"

From my reading on the subject (and I am not an expert by any means) the modern thinking is that:

1. Distance running has limited benefits for baseball players, and in fact makes them slower.

2. Weight lifting for pitchers can make a huge difference in velocity and longevity.Quick question, What is the single best lift a pitcher can do? Who would have thought it was a "deadlift". (at least not me anyways)

3. Yoga is great for the general population for health and flexibility, but baseball players are better off doing specific stretching and using micro rolling to improve flexibility where it is required.

4. Weighted baseball programs are not only beneficial in velocity development but recovery.

JH provided some links but I would encourage you to read and be in touch with your peers  particularly the ones that are really questioning historical practices and are trying to understand what is optimal. These include P3 sports in Santa Barbara, Eric Cressey, Drivelinebaseball, Wolforth, and others.

Originally Posted by BOF:

…

1. Distance running has limited benefits for baseball players, and in fact makes them slower.

2. Weight lifting for pitchers can make a huge difference in velocity and longevity.Quick question, What is the single best lift a pitcher can do? Who would have thought it was a "deadlift". (at least not me anyways)

3. Yoga is great for the general population for health and flexibility, but baseball players are better off doing specific stretching and using micro rolling to improve flexibility where it is required.

4. Weighted baseball programs are not only beneficial in velocity development but recovery….

I am NOT arguing here, just curious. Are you saying you’ve read scientific studies that gave you your belief about the above? If you, can you provide links?

I don't keep all of the links on the information I have read over the years, but will look through some of my stuff and see what I can find. The two places I know I have read is at Eric Cressey's and drivelinebaseball's site. Dr Bogonzi did his Phd on weighted baseball development over 20 years ago and I know I have some PDF's on the subject, but the modern weighted baseball programs are completely different now, drivelinebaseball has some stuff on them and of course Ron Wolforth. I believe ASMI (or one of their Dr's) did the lactic acid study if I recall correctly. Check out the p3 sports web page it will give you a very good perspective on what is going on in the high performance training of athletes. 

I have an interesting story on the long distance running. When my son was a Soph in HS (my goodness 5 years ago....) I ran into a track coach who was working with HS sprinters and he agreed to help my son on speed development, technique, etc. So he would go out a couple days a week with a group of sprinters and work with them. I was talking to the coach and he said that he does not allow any of his sprinters to do any distance running as it slowed them down. At the time that is what baseball players were told to do, and I thought to myself this does not make sense. So I followed up with him and we discussed it. He did not know much about baseball training but said that in his opinion baseball players should be doing repetitive sprints just like he did with his track athletes. He had data that for his track athletes who did cross country running that they came back in track season much slower than when they left him. Looking back now it makes total sense, but not long ago distance running was considered the optimal exercise. 

BOF ~ Are you aware of a deadlift that works best?  Work on all variations?

I love Brent Strom, former pitching coach of mine.  

I have and will continue to provide youth pitchers with a pitching program that consists of distance running.  Not only was it something that I personally did that contributed to my success but I continue to see it work with the kids that I have instructed over the past 10 years..

Pitchers and parents of pitchers, let me know if you have any other questions about pitching.

I have no idea CatsPop, here is a link to a couple of Erik Cressey suggestions.

http://www.ericcressey.com/5-g...y-strength-exercises

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gckx6_2lyZQ

BaseballInstructor50- Even with ALL the evidence saying that distance running is bad for pitchers, there's still no way to convince you to stop? Really? Every expert in the field says that it's bad, but you want to continue to do it? That makes absoluteIy no sense to me whatsoever. I promise you, with 100% confidence, that your success was because of your talent and not because of your distance running. Having players run distance will not help them. No evidence has ever come out on the contrary. I understand that you did it during your playing career - I did too. But that doesn't mean it's beneficial. Continuing to have your clients run distance will not help them, and I would not be able to recommend your services to anyone in good faith for their long-term well being if you continue this practice.

If there is anyone reading that I CAN convince to stop running distance, please speak up here or in private. I don't really know what else I can do - all of the evidence I provided above is quite overwhelming and plentiful - but I'll most certainly try. Distance running is bad for baseball, and no one should do it. 

BOF- thanks for the contributions.

I like that you are so passionate about stopping baseball players from distance running. Very odd but I can appreciate it.

As I tell the many pitchers that I have worked with and gone on to play in college and pro ball.  Stick with the program.  Adjust when necessary but be consistent with your throwing program, running (distance and sprint work), workouts, and stretch.  

My talent got me noticed but the entire program (running included) kept me around and kept me healthy so that I could improve and develop my talent.

Parents and Players, let me know if you have any other pitching questions.  

Long distance running is bad for baseball. I'm sorry, BaseballInstructor50, I have no idea how else to prove this to you. Please do some research on the matter. Until then, I'd advise no one to follow your program if it includes long distance running. 

My passion is not "odd." It's right. I'm right. I know I'm right because I've researched this subject, and because the evidence I've found proves I'm right. A consistent program should not include distance running for baseball players. Truthfully, I find it odd that you think it's odd that I'm providing you evidence of something that is helpful to baseball players. That's what coaches are supposed to do...

There is no evidence. Those studies can be easily picked apart as they are not pitching specific. Do you know anaerobic energy is only used after  aerobic energy is used up? So   a quality study first need to distinguish wether pitching is aerobic or anaerobic . 

JH. Answer this, football is all about explosion , in fact each play last for only 10 seconds and they get to rest a few and reset. By your studies you say thet football players shouldnt do distance work?

Jogging ng increases blood flow to the whole body, and in our case the arm. Is washes out all the waste products such as lactic acid and bring in neutricients to heal the micro tears. 

What? Did you actually read any of the links I provided? Pitching is anaerobic, and therefore an anaerobic threshold needs to be established and increased in order to optimize performance. Lactic acid is not waste, it's necessary for recovery. Those are two main tenets of everything I provided. I'd suggest reading the evidence before telling me there's no evidence. Or, consult with leading kinesiologists, biomechanical researchers, strength and conditioning coaches, and orthopedists, like I have (or that, ya know, wrote the evidence I provided), who all say the same exact thing. Distance running is bad for baseball.

I am not familiar with football-specific training so I can't speak to the accuracy of the following assumption. But, knowing the typical movements of a football player throughout a game, I would imagine that training for the sport is similar and that there would be a significant lack of benefit to distance running because of the same principles. Short burst, quick twitch, forceful movements for a small period of time are the sport-specific movements, so I'd imagine optimal training would be aligned in a similar fashion.

Once again, for lurkers of this thread…there is NO benefit to long distance running for baseball. I wish anyone luck finding evidence to the contrary.

After a simple google search that took me about 3 seconds, I came across this: "In the research study conducted by Potteiger et al. (1992), the researchers found that mean V02 only reached 20 ml. kg.min during the simulated game, and returned to 4.9 ml.kg.min between innings (resting is 3.5 ml.kg.min). The V02s of endurance athletes are approximately greater than or equal to 60 ml.kg.min. Based off this study, V02 does not seem to be a limiting factor for pitchers who want to pitch deep into games. Since a high V02 does not make a great pitcher, why are we training like an endurance athlete, when pitching relies predominately on the anaerobic system? While jogging may help you with body composition and endurance, it’s not going to help you throw more innings in a game. Our emphasis should be on building strength and speed, which are more anaerobic qualities."

More: In a similar study that compared sprint training and long, slow distance running in-season, Rhea et al. (2008) found a significant increase in lower body power for the sprint group, and a drop in power for the distance group...

Explain to me how they are easily picked apart, oh great scientist!

Funny, that's a quote from an article on Eric Cressey's website, one of the nation's leading baseball-specific strength and conditioning experts. The article is literally entitled "Should Pitchers Distance Run? What The Research Says."    http://www.ericcressey.com/sho...at-the-research-says

Arguing against this evidence is like arguing that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4. It's that obvious, folks. STOP RUNNING DISTANCE.

Takes another 3 seconds of googling to see that Football players shouldn't do any distance running. The only thing distance running helps with is distance running.

I am just trying to make pitchers better at pitching.  Not trying to make distance runners out of pitchers.  I know plenty of pitchers that opted not to do distance running but they did jump on an elliptical or bike for the same purpose.  Flush the system.  

I'm not sure what your affiliation is with eric cressey but I'm pretty sure his proof helps him make money. His evidence is against the grain and something that people will bite on, hook, line and sinker.

I will stick with a program that has worked.

Feel free to check out this website that is fun and informative.

I've never met Eric Cressey. I've never paid him a penny of my money, nor has he paid me a penny of his. We have no affiliation. I appreciate evidential research, and he provides some of the best on the topic. His evidence is not "against the grain." The fact of the matter is, that you - and everyone else who preaches distance running - don't have any evidence. As I mentioned before, distance running is bad for baseball. If you disagree, you are WRONG. There is no in between. And there is no evidence that says otherwise. 

My statements have nothing to do with any affiliation beyond an affiliation with the truth. The truth is, distance running does nothing for baseball. That's it. Period, the end. I can't force you, or anyone else, to stop preaching it. I can only attempt to pass along the truth. And if people aren't willing to accept the (blatantly obvious) truth, then I simply won't refer clients to those people.

I am not preaching distance running.  I am preaching a pitching program that includes distance running.  If you're not a fan of distance running then do some sort of cardio to flush the system.

I am proof that a program that includes distance running works.

One person is not proof for anything. What exactly are you flushing? Please provide exact terms so I can research your claims (i.e if soreness, what exactly are the things in your body that it is flushing to reduce soreness). Thanks.

I am trying to help young pitchers reach their dreams using a pitching program that has proven to work with myself and countless others.  Not sure how old you are but maybe I can help you too JH.  

You can continue your mission to stop distance running in baseball and I will continue to develop pitchers.

Parents and Players, any pitching questions?