I think that is unfair. Flu was spread out. We did not have to make more ICU spaces for flu. The mort rate was lower and I am grateful for that but the stress in hospitals was and still are overwhelming.
Normal flu seasons don’t kill 35k in a month. It will be great news if Covid-19 turns out to be less serious than expected, but 1) it is not like influenza (if only because there is no vaccine). And 2) blaming media reports and politicians makes no sense to me when Fauci, CDC, NIH and other medical experts concurred in the steps the states took. At any point Fauci could have said “stop, this is no big deal” and every major media outlet would have reported that. (Btw, he still isn’t saying that...)
And to say “see, deaths are only projected to be 60k” after 4-6 weeks in which most of the country was locked down seems odd to me. It’s like the guy standing in a driving rainstorm who throws away his umbrella because he isn’t getting wet.
And it was a hoax in Italy, Spain, England, Iran, Turkey, why???
Best thing I read somewhere: We didn’t lock down the country to try to prevent 60,000 deaths; we locked down the country to limit deaths to 60,000 from what would have been a much larger number.
@2022NYC, that is the case in NY. FL is not overwhelmed. A CEO of a hospital in Broward County told me personally that his hospital is like a ghost town. They have Covid cases, but that’s it. He is furloughing staff next week if they can’t open up to regular hospital business.
anotherparent posted:And it was a hoax in Italy, Spain, England, Iran, Turkey, why???
Best thing I read somewhere: We didn’t lock down the country to try to prevent 60,000 deaths; we locked down the country to limit deaths to 60,000 from what would have been a much larger number.
Exactly. The continued comparisons with the common flu are not even close. We have taken unprecedented drastic measures across the country (and world). We have seen clearly with NYC, New Orleans, etc., what the likelihood is once this highly contagious virus takes hold in a big city. Multiply that by every big city in every state (yes, I realize that NYC is particularly big but still..) had we not taken those measures. You think small towns and remote areas are not a problem? Many like the one with the food plant in South Dakota and now in Iowa with Tyson Foods have big plants where the virus suddenly ran rampant. Many people in most of those remote areas, as has been discussed here, thought any restrictions there were unnecessary overkill. Then, suddenly, it is a crisis. Then, there are assisted living facilities in pretty much every town. And on and on.
No one knows the numbers for sure but it is hard to imagine that deaths wouldn't be at least ten times what they are without the drastic measures that have been taken (that we don't take with the common flu). And, we are certainly not at the end. There is plenty to debate with the damage to the economy but we really need to move on from trying to argue that this pandemic is no more lethal than the common flu and, thus, should be treated in the same manner.
Also, we really haven't even scratched the surface on discussing and addressing the more significant damage done to the lungs, heart, liver and more for those who survive this virus.
anotherparent posted:Tim Turner posted:Tim will do...there’s no revised argument her at all...it’s my opinion and it’s and it’s shared by a lot of others that I’ve talked to. I won’t post anymore about it. I’m with the others...I’d much rather talk baseball than anything else.
[see, it's possible to remove all the old posts...]
Re-opening gradually is shared by absolutely everyone. Everyone agrees that different parts of the country need different things, based on multiple factors. That is precisely what the government said yesterday. The only thing people differ on is how much we need to know. The people who say, "just open it all up now and let some people die" are wrong; we will know much more in a week or two, and that will save not just lives but also the economy. No-one thinks we should all be shut down indefinitely. The main unknown is when we're going to have the data that we need.
Smitty28, what you describe pretty much sounds like what we already have here (a medium size town far from a large city, where everyone drives everywhere). Our golf courses are still open, everyone goes outside for walks, no-one is being stopped from going to outdoor batting cages (as far as I know), plenty of people are driving around, construction sites are still open, hardware stores are open, etc. I don't know what our two factories are doing.
At the end of the day, they are probably going to conclude that the two main contributing factors to spread and mortality are nursing homes and public transport (agree with CollegeBaseballInsights), which they can't do anything about, and public gatherings, which they can, if they want.
In Iowa, if we didn't have nursing homes or meat packing plants, we'd be doing okay. I think like 25% of our 2,500 cases are from nursing homes. The other day had 196 new cases, about 85 of which were in packing plants.
Golf courses are open (not clubhouses), school facilities including baseball pitching and batting facilities are closed, but construction sites are open and hardware stores are essential business. Governor just implemented additional rules for one hard hit area and said no in-person interaction with people outside your immediate family and we were shocked. Didn't realize people were still doing that.
Reason to restart baseball
https://news.yahoo.com/sunligh...ail&uh_test=1_02
yes I know yahoo is not a great credible source. But I like what it says.
RJM posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:Just to lighten this conversation.
The other day I went into ACME Supermarket, had my N95 mask on.
Walking quickly, I passed a lady.
She said I startled her and that I was not following "Social Distancing" Guidelines.
I asked her one simple questions:
Where is your N95 mask?
It's your world, then said "Have a nice day". Proceeded to do the Running Man dance.
Your response was snarky and rude. The CDC recommended masks if you can’t maintained social distancing. You violated her space.
Our grocery store implemented one-way aisles to help people maintain social distance. The main people violating that are the store employees who are pulling orders for their online pick up service, but since they are shopping for 200 people a day I kind of get it.
TerribleBPthrower posted:@2022NYC, that is the case in NY. FL is not overwhelmed. A CEO of a hospital in Broward County told me personally that his hospital is like a ghost town. They have Covid cases, but that’s it. He is furloughing staff next week if they can’t open up to regular hospital business.
FL, in this case, Ers in Broward, were overwhelmed. But many patients did test positive for Flu A. Once the spring breakers left, cruise ships stopped letting people off ships, we went into a stay at home order, required masks while shopping, limiting flights into FL airports, things eased up. I know things aren't as bad in Martin County, but the general consensus here is how stupid was that for opening the beach in Jax? You would think that no one here, looking at pictures, couldn't go out of their house!
We need widespread testing. Plain and simple.
Ask the many doctors and nurses that got sick (many died) if this was a normal flu. To suggest that this was a media driven hysteria, or even mention the word hoax, is irresponsible. JMO
Go44dad posted:Roses are red
Violets are blue
My best friend Knutt
Did an interview for you
https://21stcenturywire.com/20...oesnt-actually-work/
It’s much easier to read the transcript than watch video. Some source credential information attached below
I watched that whole thing days ago. He makes some good points. But when he starts speaking for the medical community, he’s in over his head.
TPM posted:TerribleBPthrower posted:@2022NYC, that is the case in NY. FL is not overwhelmed. A CEO of a hospital in Broward County told me personally that his hospital is like a ghost town. They have Covid cases, but that’s it. He is furloughing staff next week if they can’t open up to regular hospital business.
FL, in this case, Ers in Broward, were overwhelmed. But many patients did test positive for Flu A. Once the spring breakers left, cruise ships stopped letting people off ships, we went into a stay at home order, required masks while shopping, limiting flights into FL airports, things eased up. I know things aren't as bad in Martin County, but the general consensus here is how stupid was that for opening the beach in Jax? You would think that no one here, looking at pictures, couldn't go out of their house!
We need widespread testing. Plain and simple.
Ask the many doctors and nurses that got sick (many died) if this was a normal flu. To suggest that this was a media driven hysteria, or even mention the word hoax, is irresponsible. JMO
The CEO is the head of a hospital in Broward. I’m not comparing it to the flu or mentioning anything media related. I’m simply relaying that a hospital CEO in Broward County said if they can’t get back to BAU very soon (next week) he will need to furlough staff, including nurses. This conversation was discussing the current state of his hospital. He didn’t mention anything about what it was like 3 or 4 weeks ago. But currently, they are not overwhelmed.
Over half the cases in FL are concentrated in the tri-county area. There is no reason other parts of the state shouldn’t be allowed to slowly open and follow the guidelines that were provided.
TerribleBPthrower,
I was just saying most of the walk ins where my daughter's GF worked told her. They were swamped as first. She went up to Elmhurst and if anyone things getting the virus isn't bad, think again.
First 2 cases in Broward had gone on a cruise. Those ships are breeding grounds for sure, and a senior citizens favorite activity.
I think that things got better once they told people to go home and quarantine for 14 days.
Go44dad posted:It is Past Time to Face Reality.
IHME lowered nationwide death projection 12%, from 68k to 60k. Florida was a large part of this drop, going from 4,738 to 1363.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/jac...-coronavirus-phase-1
A small anti-body testing study in Chelsea, (Boston) shows 34% of people have the antibodies produced from exposure to CoVid 19, many times the amount expected. (Chelsea is somewhat analagous to New York in proximity of people, etc. I'll let someone who knows tell me if that is true or not.) https://www.bostonglobe.com/20...xposure-coronavirus/
While the meaning of Hoax has shifted over the last few years, this is beginning to smell much more like a media and politician driven hysteria. It's beginning to show the statistics of a normal respiratory flu season with some regions particularly hard hit.
Chelsea is adjacent to the city. It’s a high density, high unemployment, low education, low income ESL town. Chances are these were the last people to know what was going on. There’s a lot of hanging out and chatting in Chelsea. In normal times you see a lot of people hanging in front of buildings.
City rolling out trucks broadcasting COVID-19 messages in 7 languages
https://www.wcvb.com/article/c...7-languages/32197108
Several thoughts -
If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time.
If you are not prepared to go that far.... then one must ponder the possibility that to a certain degree the medical people are pulling shit out of their asses and really don't know what is going to happen and are hazarding educated guesses. IMO this is much closer to the truth than there was ever going to be 2.2 million deaths.
This argument may have merit because no matter how much the Chinese are lying it is now doubtful this was ever as lethal as it was hyped to be in March. This does not mean it was not dangerous or that any mitigation was not warranted. But did we overreact? Someday we can assess that point.
Now we must consider recent news that the Chinese knowingly allowed this to spread globally. That means that is was an intentional act that is now responsible for roughly 20X Pearl Harbor or 9/11 deaths in US making it the most dangerous attack in US history. It will kill more US ciizens than either Vietnam or Korea.
We need to recognize this for what it was - a state sponsored decision to not contain it and to disrupt the world. It was reckless at best or criminal/terroristic at worst. IMO it is the later and we need to stop calling this thing anything but the Wuhan Virus. Naming names is part of the accountability that must happen.
Given that our greatest streagth as a nation is our economy the notion of putting it back on track has to be the highest priority if in fact we are now in a war (as I think we are) with the Chinese. What that means is that similar to the Cold War every citizen is now a soldier and needs to do their duty and go back to work if they are able.
It is now time for all of us to start pulling on the same end of he rope again. God Bless America.
CollegebaseballInsights posted:luv baseball posted:Several thoughts -
If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time.
If you are not prepared to go that far.... then one must ponder the possibility that to a certain degree the medical people are pulling shit out of their asses and really don't know what is going to happen and are hazarding educated guesses. IMO this is much closer to the truth than there was ever going to be 2.2 million deaths.
This argument may have merit because no matter how much the Chinese are lying it is now doubtful this was ever as lethal as it was hyped to be in March. This does not mean it was not dangerous or that any mitigation was not warranted. But did we overreact? Someday we can assess that point.
Now we must consider recent news that the Chinese knowingly allowed this to spread globally. That means that is was an intentional act that is now responsible for roughly 20X Pearl Harbor or 9/11 deaths in US making it the most dangerous attack in US history. It will kill more US ciizens than either Vietnam or Korea.
We need to recognize this for what it was - a state sponsored decision to not contain it and to disrupt the world. It was reckless at best or criminal/terroristic at worst. IMO it is the later and we need to stop calling this thing anything but the Wuhan Virus. Naming names is part of the accountability that must happen.
Given that our greatest streagth as a nation is our economy the notion of putting it back on track has to be the highest priority if in fact we are now in a war (as I think we are) with the Chinese. What that means is that similar to the Cold War every citizen is now a soldier and needs to do their duty and go back to work if they are able.
It is now time for all of us to start pulling on the same end of he rope again. God Bless America.
"If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time."
Thanks for the laugh, the ditherer in chief called it a hoax, ignored intelligence, didn't mobilize the DPA quick enough.
Wants to blame WHO, but not the leader of China, because he has authoritarian characteristics.
CollegebaseballInsights posted:luv baseball posted:Several thoughts -
If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time.
If you are not prepared to go that far.... then one must ponder the possibility that to a certain degree the medical people are pulling shit out of their asses and really don't know what is going to happen and are hazarding educated guesses. IMO this is much closer to the truth than there was ever going to be 2.2 million deaths.
This argument may have merit because no matter how much theChinese are lying it is now doubtful this was ever as lethal as it was hyped to be in March. This does not mean it was not dangerous or that any mitigation was not warranted. But did we overreact? Someday we can assess that point.
Now we must consider recent news that the Chinese knowingly allowed this to spread globally. That means that is was an intentional act that is now responsible for roughly 20X Pearl Harbor or 9/11 deaths in US making it the most dangerous attack in US history. It will kill more US ciizens than either Vietnam or Korea.
We need to recognize this for what it was - a state sponsored decision to not contain it and to disrupt the world. It was reckless at best or criminal/terroristic at worst. IMO it is the later and we need to stop calling this thing anything but the Wuhan Virus. Naming names is part of the accountability that must happen.
Given that our greatest streagth as a nation is our economy the notion of putting it back on track has to be the highest priority if in fact we are now in a war (as I think we are) with the Chinese. What that means is that similar to the Cold War every citizen is now a soldier and needs to do their duty and go back to work if they are able.
It is now time for all of us to start pulling on the same end of he rope again. God Bless America.
"If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time."
Thanks for the laugh, the ditherer in chief called it a hoax, ignored intelligence, didn't mobilize the DPA quick enough.
Wants to blame WHO, but not the leader of China, because he has authoritarian characteristics.
What was the national media doing Jan 31st? Non-stop coverage of Adam Schiff, Jerry Nadler in the Senate making a fool of themselves and the democratic party. And calling Trump a racist because he cut off travel with China.
But no stories on the Virus.
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Images (2)
Go44dad posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:luv baseball posted:Several thoughts -
If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time.
If you are not prepared to go that far.... then one must ponder the possibility that to a certain degree the medical people are pulling shit out of their asses and really don't know what is going to happen and are hazarding educated guesses. IMO this is much closer to the truth than there was ever going to be 2.2 million deaths.
This argument may have merit because no matter how much the Chinese are lying it is now doubtful this was ever as lethal as it was hyped to be in March. This does not mean it was not dangerous or that any mitigation was not warranted. But did we overreact? Someday we can assess that point.
Now we must consider recent news that the Chinese knowingly allowed this to spread globally. That means that is was an intentional act that is now responsible for roughly 20X Pearl Harbor or 9/11 deaths in US making it the most dangerous attack in US history. It will kill more US ciizens than either Vietnam or Korea.
We need to recognize this for what it was - a state sponsored decision to not contain it and to disrupt the world. It was reckless at best or criminal/terroristic at worst. IMO it is the later and we need to stop calling this thing anything but the Wuhan Virus. Naming names is part of the accountability that must happen.
Given that our greatest streagth as a nation is our economy the notion of putting it back on track has to be the highest priority if in fact we are now in a war (as I think we are) with the Chinese. What that means is that similar to the Cold War every citizen is now a soldier and needs to do their duty and go back to work if they are able.
It is now time for all of us to start pulling on the same end of he rope again. God Bless America.
"If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time."
Thanks for the laugh, the ditherer in chief called it a hoax, ignored intelligence, didn't mobilize the DPA quick enough.
Wants to blame WHO, but not the leader of China, because he has authoritarian characteristics.
CollegebaseballInsights posted:luv baseball posted:Several thoughts -
If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time.
If you are not prepared to go that far.... then one must ponder the possibility that to a certain degree the medical people are pulling shit out of their asses and really don't know what is going to happen and are hazarding educated guesses. IMO this is much closer to the truth than there was ever going to be 2.2 million deaths.
This argument may have merit because no matter how much theChinese are lying it is now doubtful this was ever as lethal as it was hyped to be in March. This does not mean it was not dangerous or that any mitigation was not warranted. But did we overreact? Someday we can assess that point.
Now we must consider recent news that the Chinese knowingly allowed this to spread globally. That means that is was an intentional act that is now responsible for roughly 20X Pearl Harbor or 9/11 deaths in US making it the most dangerous attack in US history. It will kill more US ciizens than either Vietnam or Korea.
We need to recognize this for what it was - a state sponsored decision to not contain it and to disrupt the world. It was reckless at best or criminal/terroristic at worst. IMO it is the later and we need to stop calling this thing anything but the Wuhan Virus. Naming names is part of the accountability that must happen.
Given that our greatest streagth as a nation is our economy the notion of putting it back on track has to be the highest priority if in fact we are now in a war (as I think we are) with the Chinese. What that means is that similar to the Cold War every citizen is now a soldier and needs to do their duty and go back to work if they are able.
It is now time for all of us to start pulling on the same end of he rope again. God Bless America.
"If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time."
Thanks for the laugh, the ditherer in chief called it a hoax, ignored intelligence, didn't mobilize the DPA quick enough.
Wants to blame WHO, but not the leader of China, because he has authoritarian characteristics.
What was the national media doing Jan 31st? Non-stop coverage of Adam Schiff, Jerry Nadler in the Senate making a fool of themselves and the democratic party. And calling Trump a racist because he cut off travel with China.
But no stories on the Virus.
Ok a couple days ago I said I wasn’t going to post anymore on this subject, but when I see people trying to defend their position by inserting a quote from HL Mencken that tells me everything I need to know about that person. You voted for him or you didn’t...that’s your right as an American citizen...but I’ll guarantee you one thing I’d rather have him in the White House handling this than a guy that puts his foot in his mouth every time he opens it. And don’t get me started about Mrs. Clinton! So now everyone knows where I stand.
^ These posts are proof that this thread has made the final step to turn into facebook. All we need is some public shaming.
Viking0 posted:^ These posts are proof that this thread has made the final step to turn into facebook. All we need is some public shaming.
I didn’t open this door
This thread has been contentious at times but, for the most part, contained a great deal of discussion, debate, opinion and (mostly) great resource content from folks from all over the map (in every way - which is a good thing).
Can we PLEASE get back on track with that so that we can avoid thread closure or deletion ??!!
.."I’ll guarantee you one thing I’d rather have him in the White House handling this than a guy that puts his foot in his mouth every time he opens it. And don’t get me started about Mrs. Clinton! So now everyone knows where I stand."
I'm not going to say why I think he's uniquely unqualified to be the person "handling this", and has done an miserable job so far. I could write several screens worth, but it would be a waste of pixels. I will say that below is a partial list of HSBaseballWeb users with a variety of backgrounds and political viewpoints, who, just from reading or interacting with here, have demonstrated to me that they have essential qualities the president lacks, and that I would trust to handle this pandemic far more than I trust him.
TPM, RJM, cabbagedad, fenwaysouth, PGStaff, CaCO3Girl, justbaseball, BishopLeftiesDad, hshuler, roothog66, smokeminside, BOF, Coach_May, Consultant, Swampboy, Gov, tequila, Iowmamom, CoachB25, Ripken Fan, infielddad, PitchingFan, Branson Baseball, hokieone, Zia, BK-CatcherDad, Bacdorslider, Sunwalkingvalley, MAM, nycdad, Eokerholm, Chico Esquala & Twoboys
I know I missed quite a few. Apologies. If you believe that you would do a better job than Trump, you are very probably right.
Out.
JCG posted:.."I’ll guarantee you one thing I’d rather have him in the White House handling this than a guy that puts his foot in his mouth every time he opens it. And don’t get me started about Mrs. Clinton! So now everyone knows where I stand."
I'm not going to say why I think he's uniquely unqualified to be the person "handling this", and has done an miserable job so far. I could write several screens worth, but it would be a waste of pixels. I will say that below is a partial list of HSBaseballWeb users with a variety of backgrounds and political viewpoints, who, just from reading or interacting with here, have demonstrated to me that they have essential qualities the president lacks, and that I would trust to handle this pandemic far more than I trust him.
TPM, RJM, cabbagedad, fenwaysouth, PGStaff, CaCO3Girl, justbaseball, BishopLeftiesDad, hshuler, roothog66, smokeminside, BOF, Coach_May, Consultant, Swampboy, Gov, tequila, Iowmamom, CoachB25, Ripken Fan, infielddad, PitchingFan, Branson Baseball, hokieone, Zia, BK-CatcherDad, Bacdorslider, Sunwalkingvalley, MAM, nycdad, Eokerholm, Chico Esquala & Twoboys
I know I missed quite a few. Apologies. If you believe that you would do a better job than Trump, you are very probably right.
Out.
For many days I refrained from reading any posts on this thread..a couple days ago I finally posted a few of my thoughts which were entirely non political...anyone can go back and read those comments and you’ll see they were void of any political thought or political opinion. I came back this morning to visit the thread and came across a political opinion post...so I decided to stand up for my point of view just like several others have opined on this thread.
JCG posted:TPM, RJM, cabbagedad, fenwaysouth, PGStaff, CaCO3Girl, justbaseball, BishopLeftiesDad, hshuler, roothog66, smokeminside, BOF, Coach_May, Consultant, Swampboy, Gov, tequila, Iowmamom, CoachB25, Ripken Fan, infielddad, PitchingFan, Branson Baseball, hokieone, Zia, BK-CatcherDad, Bacdorslider, Sunwalkingvalley, MAM, nycdad, Eokerholm, Chico Esquala & Twoboys
I know I missed quite a few. Apologies. If you believe that you would do a better job than Trump, you are very probably right.
Out.
Let the draft begin!!! Who's up first??!!
JCG posted:.."I’ll guarantee you one thing I’d rather have him in the White House handling this than a guy that puts his foot in his mouth every time he opens it. And don’t get me started about Mrs. Clinton! So now everyone knows where I stand."
I'm not going to say why I think he's uniquely unqualified to be the person "handling this", and has done an miserable job so far. I could write several screens worth, but it would be a waste of pixels. I will say that below is a partial list of HSBaseballWeb users with a variety of backgrounds and political viewpoints, who, just from reading or interacting with here, have demonstrated to me that they have essential qualities the president lacks, and that I would trust to handle this pandemic far more than I trust him.
TPM, RJM, cabbagedad, fenwaysouth, PGStaff, CaCO3Girl, justbaseball, BishopLeftiesDad, hshuler, roothog66, smokeminside, BOF, Coach_May, Consultant, Swampboy, Gov, tequila, Iowmamom, CoachB25, Ripken Fan, infielddad, PitchingFan, Branson Baseball, hokieone, Zia, BK-CatcherDad, Bacdorslider, Sunwalkingvalley, MAM, nycdad, Eokerholm, Chico Esquala & Twoboys
I know I missed quite a few. Apologies. If you believe that you would do a better job than Trump, you are very probably right.
Out.
JCG posted:.."I’ll guarantee you one thing I’d rather have him in the White House handling this than a guy that puts his foot in his mouth every time he opens it. And don’t get me started about Mrs. Clinton! So now everyone knows where I stand."
I'm not going to say why I think he's uniquely unqualified to be the person "handling this", and has done an miserable job so far. I could write several screens worth, but it would be a waste of pixels. I will say that below is a partial list of HSBaseballWeb users with a variety of backgrounds and political viewpoints, who, just from reading or interacting with here, have demonstrated to me that they have essential qualities the president lacks, and that I would trust to handle this pandemic far more than I trust him.
TPM, RJM, cabbagedad, fenwaysouth, PGStaff, CaCO3Girl, justbaseball, BishopLeftiesDad, hshuler, roothog66, smokeminside, BOF, Coach_May, Consultant, Swampboy, Gov, tequila, Iowmamom, CoachB25, Ripken Fan, infielddad, PitchingFan, Branson Baseball, hokieone, Zia, BK-CatcherDad, Bacdorslider, Sunwalkingvalley, MAM, nycdad, Eokerholm, Chico Esquala & Twoboys
I know I missed quite a few. Apologies. If you believe that you would do a better job than Trump, you are very probably right.
Out.
💔
Interesting article.
Agreed this thread has been a great source of differing opinions, info, and just a way to discuss what's foremost of many of our minds these days. I also understand that sometimes when you see an opinion expressed that sets you off, you want to respond. Political comments tend especially to have that effect, and I have ventured responses to such now and then myself. (Although I have tried to apologize and walk them back when I have done so, and I don't think I've fallen off that wagon lately.)
Point being, most of the folks in this community have agreed to try to avoid politics, and that seems to be a good practice. I'm not trying to attack anyone who has offered opinions with a political cast in this thread--I just ask that we not go there. (I have strong political views of my own, believe me.)
Anyhow--I thought the stats in the article linked below from today's Washington Post were interesting. The authors have a point of view you may disagree with, but read it anyhow for the data. IMO they are a good demonstration both that covid-19 is a serious problem, and that the degree of seriousness is heavily dependent on geography.
I inserted a couple of charts from the article below. Here is the link:
https://www.washingtonpost.com...e-death/?arc404=true
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"https://www.timesofisrael.com/...f-out-after-70-days/"
Well, that is another person who just looks at numbers and seems to have no ideas about what might be behind them. I prefer the people who know something about disease transmission, even the ones who say that we need herd immunity and who cares about some deaths know something about the medicine. This guy is just like another who got some press, just for looking at patterns in the numbers.
Every single day there is more information about what this disease actually does, and what might help it. Yesterday the news was that asthma is apparently not a risk factor (https://www.thelancet.com/acti...-2600%2820%2930167-3), which was truly surprising to me, especially since I live in a house with two asthmatics. Two days ago, Remdesivir was shown to be very promising. Four days ago, the British press was reporting that a group at Oxford University is doing clinical trials of a vaccine that, if it works, they hope to have available by September: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gl...ld-ready-end-summer/. Hundreds more studies are being done, it's really amazing. Thank goodness for scientists.
RE Remdesivir -- not sure if that piece was posted. Very promising.
It really doesn’t matter if the numbers play out the same everywhere. If the stats are the same in country after country, they have merit. Doesn’t matter if a doctor, medical professor, or statistics specialist logs them. Of course treating the disease is important but it doesn’t change when it peaks and when it subsided.
Chico Escuela posted:Agreed this thread has been a great source of differing opinions, info, and just a way to discuss what's foremost of many of our minds these days. I also understand that sometimes when you see an opinion expressed that sets you off, you want to respond. Political comments tend especially to have that effect, and I have ventured responses to such now and then myself. (Although I have tried to apologize and walk them back when I have done so, and I don't think I've fallen off that wagon lately.)
Point being, most of the folks in this community have agreed to try to avoid politics, and that seems to be a good practice. I'm not trying to attack anyone who has offered opinions with a political cast in this thread--I just ask that we not go there. (I have strong political views of my own, believe me.)
Anyhow--I thought the stats in the article linked below from today's Washington Post were interesting. The authors have a point of view you may disagree with, but read it anyhow for the data. IMO they are a good demonstration both that covid-19 is a serious problem, and that the degree of seriousness is heavily dependent on geography.
I inserted a couple of charts from the article below. Here is the link:
https://www.washingtonpost.com...e-death/?arc404=true
Thanks for sharing this. I am curious if this chart accounts for co-mortalities and how they placed in the buckets. This has been the issue with flu.
Something that has been on my mind, offered for your consideration: A family member is president of an electric utility that serves millions of customers in the southern US. I spoke with this person recently. The lights have to stay on during the pandemic, of course, so they have linemen and other key folks working while wearing masks, practicing rigorous social distancing, etc. Anyone who can work from home is doing so for now, which is more people than you might think. They have had a few employee covid-19 cases, but only a few. One of the big items on their agenda (obviously) is planning for the return of their workers to their offices, call centers and other usual locations. The utility president said something that maybe is obvious, but gave me pause: "Even if I tell my employees to return to work, a lot of them are going to stay home if they don't feel safe." So the company says they need extensive, reliable testing, many gallons of sanitizer and lots of PPE, and it's not yet clear where or when that will be available. This for an industry that is incontrovertibly "essential" and whose employees recognize this about their work. We have a big job ahead of us as a nation.
The stay at home order is also buying time for manufacturing a lot more FDA EUA virus detection kits and qualitative serology test kit to confirm COVID-19 circulating antibodies.
CollegebaseballInsights posted:luv baseball posted:Several thoughts -
If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time.
If you are not prepared to go that far.... then one must ponder the possibility that to a certain degree the medical people are pulling shit out of their asses and really don't know what is going to happen and are hazarding educated guesses. IMO this is much closer to the truth than there was ever going to be 2.2 million deaths.
This argument may have merit because no matter how much the Chinese are lying it is now doubtful this was ever as lethal as it was hyped to be in March. This does not mean it was not dangerous or that any mitigation was not warranted. But did we overreact? Someday we can assess that point.
Now we must consider recent news that the Chinese knowingly allowed this to spread globally. That means that is was an intentional act that is now responsible for roughly 20X Pearl Harbor or 9/11 deaths in US making it the most dangerous attack in US history. It will kill more US ciizens than either Vietnam or Korea.
We need to recognize this for what it was - a state sponsored decision to not contain it and to disrupt the world. It was reckless at best or criminal/terroristic at worst. IMO it is the later and we need to stop calling this thing anything but the Wuhan Virus. Naming names is part of the accountability that must happen.
Given that our greatest streagth as a nation is our economy the notion of putting it back on track has to be the highest priority if in fact we are now in a war (as I think we are) with the Chinese. What that means is that similar to the Cold War every citizen is now a soldier and needs to do their duty and go back to work if they are able.
It is now time for all of us to start pulling on the same end of he rope again. God Bless America.
"If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time."
Thanks for the laugh, the ditherer in chief called it a hoax, ignored intelligence, didn't mobilize the DPA quick enough.
Wants to blame WHO, but not the leader of China, because he has authoritarian characteristics.
Trump never called it a hoax. He called the media a hoax. The media is claiming he called the virus a hoax. Yet liberals don’t want to admit it and cling to this lie.
The first person died in 2/28. Trump shut down the border and the media and Democrats (sorry for the redundancy) screamed “xenophobia.”
Late February Nancy Pelosi was parading around San Francisco’s Chinatown telling people to ignore COVID and to eat out since there was nothing to be afraid of. Democrat NYC Mayor DiBlasio and the NYC Health Director were telling people the same two weeks later.
It’s looking to me like Democrats were asleep at the wheel trying to remove Trump from office (impeachment) over fraudulent charges and calling him a xenophobe over shutting down travel when they could have been paying attention to world affairs that could affect the county.
The last Democrat I posted this at told me I was dumber than a bag of rocks and he hopes I die from COVID so there would be one less stupid person in the world. They’re just facts. I thought he would appreciate facts, not get upset with them.
I was hoping we would re-open operations before doing a hot-wash of the data, blaming the parties and funding a reasonable after-action plan.
Chico Escuela posted:Anyhow--I thought the stats in the article linked below from today's Washington Post were interesting. The authors have a point of view you may disagree with, but read it anyhow for the data. IMO they are a good demonstration both that covid-19 is a serious problem, and that the degree of seriousness is heavily dependent on geography.
I inserted a couple of charts from the article below. Here is the link:
While you may find the article interesting, by no means use it for the data. It is totally slanted in line with the Post's political agenda.
I posted the following from the latest CDC report at the time on this forum four days ago:
- Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths attributed to COVID-19 increased from 4.0% during week 13 to 6.9% during week 14. The percentage of deaths due to pneumonia (excluding COVID-19 or influenza) decreased from 7.5% during week 13 to 7.2% during week 14.
The reason I posted this was to show that common pneumonia deaths still exceeded COVID-19 deaths. Not meant to say COVID-19 deaths are insignificant, just that COVID-19 was not the dominant cause of P&I deaths. Do you honestly think this changed that dramatically in a weeks time? Note the Post just happened to throw in "pneumonitis" as an item in their graphic--the SMALLEST circle. What is "pneumonitis" you ask?
Pneumonia vs. pneumonitis. Pneumonitis is a term used to describe inflammation of the lung tissues without the presence of an infection, whereas pneumonia is inflammation caused by an infection.
Why would they include this? People die from this? Seriously? Where is pneumonia listed on this chart? Non-COVID-19 pneumonia? Also note that while COVID-19 deaths were increasing in week 14, non-flu and non-COVID-19 pneumonia deaths decreased and this is likely because testing for COVID-19 became paramount. Or not. Because people who died of pneumonia now are listed as probable deaths related to COVID-19. 125% insurance payout to providers, don't you know...
And notice the bar charts listed below. Are we to assume the data represented in the cascading graphic above is using the data in the bar charts below? I'm sure! Why hasn't the Post used data for the ENTIRE COUNTRY???!!!
I would stick to posting papers published in the scientific community and not some politically motivated piece authored by our "news" media.
ABSORBER, attacking an argument based on its source is known as the "genetic fallacy." But the article is an opinion piece and is by non-experts (like various other things posted in this thread). I'm more interested in what Dr. Fauci says, for sure.
Your post above doesn't show that CDC data demonstrate pneumonia deaths exceed covid-19 deaths. That point may be made somewhere else in what you posted previously, but the quotation in your post immediately above says nothing of the sort.
Let's assume the Post article's chart only reflects the hard-hit areas in the second graph. (I honestly don't know the answer to that.) Wouldn't that still show that in areas where covid-19 rates are highest, it is a very significant cause of death? Seems like something I would want to know if I were considering whether to continue measures to reduce the spread of the disease.
cabbagedad posted:This thread has been contentious at times but, for the most part, contained a great deal of discussion, debate, opinion and (mostly) great resource content from folks from all over the map (in every way - which is a good thing).
Can we PLEASE get back on track with that so that we can avoid thread closure or deletion ??!!
Apparently we can’t. Unlike most threads this one applies to all of us. And some posters just can’t seem to resist offering their political opinions and/or leanings. The deal is nobody cares what they are and it’s not like some clever post is going to change any persons system of values. So, for the love of God, would you please give it a rest?!?
2022NYC posted:I was hoping we would re-open operations before doing a hot-wash of the data, blaming the parties and funding a reasonable after-action plan.
The Democrats and the Mainstream Media Democrat Party Fan Club Newsletter franchise has been blaming Trump since they realized this is another opportunity to remove him from office. They’ve been attempting to rewrite history. While they were out stating COVID is nothing to be concerned with in February and early March they’re claiming Trump knew in January. You don’t shut down the country with incomplete data (China withheld**) and no deaths until 2/28.
** Does anyone seriously believe a China only had 3,500 deaths? It more likely 100,000+. An anonymous reporter (he doesn’t want to be executed) in Wuhan believes their number alone is 42,000-46,000. Does anyone believe Shanghai, population 24.8 million living in top of each other like NYC only had seven deaths?
adbono posted:cabbagedad posted:This thread has been contentious at times but, for the most part, contained a great deal of discussion, debate, opinion and (mostly) great resource content from folks from all over the map (in every way - which is a good thing).
Can we PLEASE get back on track with that so that we can avoid thread closure or deletion ??!!
Apparently we can’t. Unlike most threads this one applies to all of us. And some posters just can’t seem to resist offering their political opinions and/or leanings. The deal is nobody cares what they are and it’s not like some clever post is going to change any persons system of values. So, for the love of God, would you please give it a rest?!?
AMEN
Chico Escuela posted:Something that has been on my mind, offered for your consideration: A family member is president of an electric utility that serves millions of customers in the southern US. I spoke with this person recently. The lights have to stay on during the pandemic, of course, so they have linemen and other key folks working while wearing masks, practicing rigorous social distancing, etc. Anyone who can work from home is doing so for now, which is more people than you might think. They have had a few employee covid-19 cases, but only a few. One of the big items on their agenda (obviously) is planning for the return of their workers to their offices, call centers and other usual locations. The utility president said something that maybe is obvious, but gave me pause: "Even if I tell my employees to return to work, a lot of them are going to stay home if they don't feel safe." So the company says they need extensive, reliable testing, many gallons of sanitizer and lots of PPE, and it's not yet clear where or when that will be available. This for an industry that is incontrovertibly "essential" and whose employees recognize this about their work. We have a big job ahead of us as a nation.
This is totally true. It's relatively easy to get everyone home but it's going to be much harder to get everyone back into the office. We have asked everyone their comfort level with working in the office and the biggest concern we get has to do with commuting into NYC. Many say they will drive in and park initially when things open up. I have a number of people I just don't think will come back until there is widespread testing or until they see no new cases etc. We will have signs in the office for doors to go in, and doors to leave, what urinal to use etc etc. I hope we take temps in the lobby too. t's going to take time.
Chico Escuela posted:Your post above doesn't show that CDC data demonstrate pneumonia deaths exceed covid-19 deaths. That point may be made somewhere else in what you posted previously, but the quotation in your post immediately above says nothing of the sort.
Let's assume the Post article's chart only reflects the hard-hit areas in the second graph. (I honestly don't know the answer to that.) Wouldn't that still show that in areas where covid-19 rates are highest, it is a very significant cause of death? Seems like something I would want to know if I were considering whether to continue measures to reduce the spread of the disease.
The CDC report (from the CDC's FLUVIEW weekly report) lists those percentages as % of deaths in the U.S.. So yes, it does mean that non-flu and non-COVID-19 pneumonia deaths are a higher % of U.S. deaths than are COVID-19 deaths or flu-deaths. Note that the week 14 report is the last one of the season due to the prevalence of COVID-19 deaths. All COVID-19 deaths now just list overall P&I death % in the U.S.. That now includes flu, COVID-19, and and the rest of pneumonia deaths. Because they now know it doesn't really matter and all the P&I data will be skewed. If a patient exhibits COVID-19 symptoms they will likely test for COVID-19, not flu. They may test negative for COVID-19 but if they die they will now be listed as probable COVID-19 which is why numbers shot up significantly in the last few days. Also because these recent numbers added were "probable" deaths over the entire COVID-19 period, not just one week.
Yes, I had to assume the bar charts are the only data used in their article as that is what the graphic represents. I didn't read the article though (to be honest) as I don't pay for a subscription from the Post. I'm tempted, however, as I live in the DC area. So I made an educated guess and if you look at the totals will will see the charts match so it is a very limited data set. And sure, it is only in hotspot areas, if you consider DC and CA hotspots. Not sure I do... But I would say not too many people in NYC own cars. Plus not as many people on the roads now. I do hear the same traffic reports of accidents on the radio though!!! Go figure!!!
Most Wapo and NYTimes pandemic-related content is free to non-subscribers.
ABSORBER posted:Chico Escuela posted:Your post above doesn't show that CDC data demonstrate pneumonia deaths exceed covid-19 deaths. That point may be made somewhere else in what you posted previously, but the quotation in your post immediately above says nothing of the sort.
Let's assume the Post article's chart only reflects the hard-hit areas in the second graph. (I honestly don't know the answer to that.) Wouldn't that still show that in areas where covid-19 rates are highest, it is a very significant cause of death? Seems like something I would want to know if I were considering whether to continue measures to reduce the spread of the disease.
The CDC report (from the CDC's FLUVIEW weekly report) lists those percentages as % of deaths in the U.S.. So yes, it does mean that non-flu and non-COVID-19 pneumonia deaths are a higher % of U.S. deaths than are COVID-19 deaths or flu-deaths. Note that the week 14 report is the last one of the season due to the prevalence of COVID-19 deaths. All COVID-19 deaths now just list overall P&I death % in the U.S.. That now includes flu, COVID-19, and and the rest of pneumonia deaths. Because they now know it doesn't really matter and all the P&I data will be skewed. If a patient exhibits COVID-19 symptoms they will likely test for COVID-19, not flu. They may test negative for COVID-19 but if they die they will now be listed as probable COVID-19 which is why numbers shot up significantly in the last few days. Also because these recent numbers added were "probable" deaths over the entire COVID-19 period, not just one week.
Yes, I had to assume the bar charts are the only data used in their article as that is what the graphic represents. I didn't read the article though (to be honest) as I don't pay for a subscription from the Post. I'm tempted, however, as I live in the DC area. So I made an educated guess and if you look at the totals will will see the charts match so it is a very limited data set. And sure, it is only in hotspot areas, if you consider DC and CA hotspots. Not sure I do... But I would say not too many people in NYC own cars. Plus not as many people on the roads now. I do hear the same traffic reports of accidents on the radio though!!! Go figure!!!
Thanks for the clarification re: the CDC percentages. I stand corrected.
Your post above is, IMO, a good model of how to disagree without being disagreeable. I appreciate that. And you do appear to be right re: the first chart being only based on data from the second, which I had not noticed earlier (but should have). So thanks for pointing that out, too.
Chico Escuela posted:Your post above is, IMO, a good model of how to disagree without being disagreeable. I appreciate that. And you do appear to be right re: the first chart being only based on data from the second, which I had not noticed earlier (but should have). So thanks for pointing that out, too.
I like to respond in kind if I can help it! So believe me, I definitely know you are not a disagreeable sort! I've enjoyed your posts for quite some time. Well, most of them anyway!!!
What's befuddling to me is that the CDC doesn't appear to keep prior week copies for FLUView on their site. Or if they do I can't find them!!! So you had to click on the links I provided on the date I posted (Apr 15) in order to see them. They now link to the current week which only shows a rollup of all P&I deaths. Very frustrating. I do see now that they have a way to navigate to prior-weeks COVIDView reports (there is only one prior week thus far) so good on them. Not sure why I can't see previous FLUView's in the same way. Budget??!!
Strange, my post from April 15th said this:
An interesting data point from this week's COVIDView Weekly Summary from the CDC:
- Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths attributed to COVID-19 increased from 4.0% during week 13 to 6.9% during week 14. The percentage of deaths due to pneumonia (excluding COVID-19 or influenza) decreased from 7.5% during week 13 to 7.2% during week 14.
* https://www.cdc.gov/coronaviru...ata%2Fcovidview.html
There is only ONE previous week COVIDView listed and here is what it says:
- The percentage of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza increased to 8.2% and is above the epidemic threshold of 7.2%. The percent of deaths due to pneumonia has increased sharply since the end of February, while those due to influenza increased modestly through early March and declined this week. This could reflect an increase in deaths from pneumonia caused by non-influenza associated infections including COVID-19.
* https://www.cdc.gov/coronaviru...orts/04-03-2020.html
This is NOT what it said just four days ago. In fact, they changed it to exclude COVID-19 deaths. Strange. It must have been a "live" document.
And now the current week:
- Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths attributed to COVID-19, pneumonia or influenza increased from 17.8% during week 14 to 18.8% during week 15.
* https://www.cdc.gov/coronaviru...covidview/index.html
Note the link immediately above will always link to the current week.
The current one seems to jive with what I originally posted for week 14:
COVID %: 6.9
Pneumonia (excluding COVID-19 or influenza) %: 7.2%
Total: 14.1% (excludes flu %)
So based on this week's report, which lists all P&I totals for week 14 being 17.8%, flu % for week 14 must have been 3.7% (17.8 - 14.1 = 3.7)
Looks like they will break out COVID-19 in next week's report.
All,
I don't know if you've seen this, the oversight has been issue from inception.
Rahm Emmanuel "Never let a crisis go to waste"
https://www.businessinsider.co...ion-n95-masks-2020-4
CollegebaseballInsights posted:All,
I don't know if you've seen this, the oversight has been issue from inception.
Rahm Emmanuel "Never let a crisis go to waste"
https://www.businessinsider.co...ion-n95-masks-2020-4
Never heard of the "Trump administration" agency. Must be new.
I have heard of FEMA though. I wasn't aware they hired an entirely new set of workers when administrations changed.
ABSORBER posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:All,
I don't know if you've seen this, the oversight has been issue from inception.
Rahm Emmanuel "Never let a crisis go to waste"
https://www.businessinsider.co...ion-n95-masks-2020-4
Never heard of the "Trump administration" agency. Must be new.
I have heard of FEMA though. I wasn't aware they hired an entirely new set of workers when administrations changed.
The oversight is with Mnuchin, head of fema is a political position.
CollegebaseballInsights posted:ABSORBER posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:All,
I don't know if you've seen this, the oversight has been issue from inception.
Rahm Emmanuel "Never let a crisis go to waste"
https://www.businessinsider.co...ion-n95-masks-2020-4
Never heard of the "Trump administration" agency. Must be new.
I have heard of FEMA though. I wasn't aware they hired an entirely new set of workers when administrations changed.
The oversight is with Mnuchin, head of fema is a political position.
$2 trillion+ in brand new federal funds are rolling off the proverbial presses in coming months. There is going to be graft, waste and profiteering. I hope the media ferrets out what they can, whether it makes someone on my political "team" look bad or someone on yours. I saw the story above a few days ago. If it the details are in fact as the story makes them appear, then maybe some heads need to roll--whatever party the bodies attached to them are registered with.
CollegebaseballInsights posted:ABSORBER posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:All,
I don't know if you've seen this, the oversight has been issue from inception.
Rahm Emmanuel "Never let a crisis go to waste"
https://www.businessinsider.co...ion-n95-masks-2020-4
Never heard of the "Trump administration" agency. Must be new.
I have heard of FEMA though. I wasn't aware they hired an entirely new set of workers when administrations changed.
The oversight is with Mnuchin, head of fema is a political position.
And I'm sure that all agency heads make all the decisions for their agencies. I'm a government agency employee and I can assure you, this is not the case. I suppose if you show some documentation that shows "Mnuchin" awarded the contract himself I may believe you. Until then writers should quit authoring articles like this and readers should quit paying for tabloids.
That's exactly why we have political division in our country, i.e. "fake news".
Is anyone ready to consider this radical thought.....the number of people who are going to die from this no matter what we do is going to pretty much the same as if we did nothing other than start wearing masks, not rubbing our faces, washing our hands more and keeping a little space between us? What if 60-70K was the number of people that were going to die regardless. The only thing that will change the number is an effective treatment unless we are willing to stop living until that time comes. No thanks. This thing is probably going to be survived by roughly 99% or more of the people that contract it when the numbers are in.
What if a vaccine is never developed much like the flu and common cold? What will happen? We will develop immunity to one degree or another and carry on. That outcome unlike the models is actual science. Darwin espoused it 175 years ago. People will continue to die from this for a very long time.
As for politics - I made the Trump quip about saving 2million in jest to set up the larger point which is the models are preposterous which has nothing to do with politics other than who is generating them to what purpose.
As for Mencken - he was right and for proof we don't need look any further than a man who would print his picture with the word Hope under it in six inch lettering. I think you will be able to see what I am talking about if you look up ego maniac in the dictionary - the picture should be there.
On the other hand it is possible....maybe even probable....that anyone that runs for President believing they have answers to the worlds problems HAS to be an ego maniac. Think about it so that you can realize that every man that has had that office in your lifetime is flawed in some way or another and then try to grow up a little.
I can't wait to go back to work - I am getting a little cranky I think.
luv baseball posted:What if 60-70K was the number of people that were going to die regardless. . . . . This thing is probably going to be survived by roughly 99% or more of the people that contract it when the numbers are in.
No-one who makes models dispute that more people would have died if we hadn't taken measures to lessen that rate. No-one. Where people differ is whether we should have allowed those deaths either (a) to save the economy, (b) to create herd immunity, or (c) let us keep doing what we wanted if we didn't care about dead people. Sweden decided they would go that route; as of right now they have 1,540 deaths, as opposed to 165 deaths for Norway and 355 for Denmark. Sweden's population is twice Norway's and almost that for Denmark, but they have 9 times the number of deaths as Norway, and four times that of Denmark.
If "only" 1% of people in the US die of coronavirus, that is 3.25 million people. In 2019, 2.8 million people died in the US total, of everything.
ABSORBER posted:JCG posted:TPM, RJM, cabbagedad, fenwaysouth, PGStaff, CaCO3Girl, justbaseball, BishopLeftiesDad, hshuler, roothog66, smokeminside, BOF, Coach_May, Consultant, Swampboy, Gov, tequila, Iowmamom, CoachB25, Ripken Fan, infielddad, PitchingFan, Branson Baseball, hokieone, Zia, BK-CatcherDad, Bacdorslider, Sunwalkingvalley, MAM, nycdad, Eokerholm, Chico Esquala & Twoboys
I know I missed quite a few. Apologies. If you believe that you would do a better job than Trump, you are very probably right.
Out.
Let the draft begin!!! Who's up first??!!
Has this list been cross- checked?
smokeminside posted:ABSORBER posted:JCG posted:TPM, RJM, cabbagedad, fenwaysouth, PGStaff, CaCO3Girl, justbaseball, BishopLeftiesDad, hshuler, roothog66, smokeminside, BOF, Coach_May, Consultant, Swampboy, Gov, tequila, Iowmamom, CoachB25, Ripken Fan, infielddad, PitchingFan, Branson Baseball, hokieone, Zia, BK-CatcherDad, Bacdorslider, Sunwalkingvalley, MAM, nycdad, Eokerholm, Chico Esquala & Twoboys
I know I missed quite a few. Apologies. If you believe that you would do a better job than Trump, you are very probably right.
Out.
Let the draft begin!!! Who's up first??!!
Has this list been cross- checked?
It has not
adbono posted:smokeminside posted:ABSORBER posted:JCG posted:TPM, RJM, cabbagedad, fenwaysouth, PGStaff, CaCO3Girl, justbaseball, BishopLeftiesDad, hshuler, roothog66, smokeminside, BOF, Coach_May, Consultant, Swampboy, Gov, tequila, Iowmamom, CoachB25, Ripken Fan, infielddad, PitchingFan, Branson Baseball, hokieone, Zia, BK-CatcherDad, Bacdorslider, Sunwalkingvalley, MAM, nycdad, Eokerholm, Chico Esquala & Twoboys
I know I missed quite a few. Apologies. If you believe that you would do a better job than Trump, you are very probably right.
Out.
Let the draft begin!!! Who's up first??!!
Has this list been cross- checked?
It has not
I guess that I missed the part where I mentioned Trump or critiqued his handling of this situation. But at least I’m in good company. 😁
The assumption that 328 million will end up infected is flawed as much as 328 million will catch a cold this year. As I stated - unless we are willing to retreat into caves the number of people that will get infected will be what it is...there is no changing that. The moment we come out the thing will run it course. The masks etc. offer some mitigation of the spread but only some. None of that eliminates risk.
The number that die absent a treatment also will be what it will be....nothing will change that either. Will we find a treatment in less than 12 to 18 months ....perhaps.... but we cannot count on it.
Slowing the spread is not stopping the spread - otherwise no-one would have gotten sick in the last month since the orders to stay home were issued in mid-March. That obviously didn't happen.
Flatten the curve is not eliminate the curve. It takes the number of people that will become ill and spreads them out over a longer period of time. Are the numbers marginally different than had we done nothing....I'll grant that but noone can really say by how much. I am thinking it much less than we are being led to believe. For example a trip to McDonalds is probably equally dangerous from the fries or milkshake than the virus.
But the Trump point prevails here IMO. There were never going to be anywhere near 2 Million dead.....that just wasn't in the cards. I doubt we have had a 97% reduction in deaths by simply sort of staying in our houses and the rest. That is and always was ridicules and was designed to scare the hell out of us to comply and it worked.
If they had come out with something like....well this is going to be a wicked bad flu season and we want you all to stay home we would have told them to go to hell. The events of the last few days around the country are evidence of this point.
There is no proof we have saved a huge number of lives by staying home ...we have only delayed the outcome UNLESS we find a cure or are willing to end life as we have known it by being reduced to quivering quislings hiding in our basemant.
luv baseball, who is the "they" behind this nefarious conspiracy theory? And how did they get to Fauci, Birx, and so many other medical and public health professionals? And get so many other countries to go along?
Disagree (using 20/20 hindsight) with the decisions elected officials from both parties in most of the nation took if you want. But there is no shadowy cabal behind the events of the past few months.
luv baseball posted:Slowing the spread is not stopping the spread - otherwise no-one would have gotten sick in the last month since the orders to stay home were issued in mid-March. That obviously didn't happen.
?? A large number of cases were among people who had essential jobs, from doctors and nurses to bus drivers to food producers. Other large clusters were among people who ignored the recommendations. Everyone knew it wouldn't stop the spread, but slowing it down was crucial.
Every single day there are new pieces of data that are useful for helping to predict and treat the disease. We've been shut down for one month. It took doctors two weeks to figure out that if they put patients who needed oxygen on their stomachs, they did better. There are treatments that we can start to see are working. We know better who is at high risk, and why. Antibody tests are telling us how many have been exposed - not maybe, not my guess or your guess, but actual data.
By slowing the spread, we have allowed space for doctors and hospitals to actually treat all the cases, and more important, we have allowed space for scientists to discover things that give everyone more confidence to come back. Without that confidence, it's not going to happen. If the CDC, FDA, etc. facilitates a set of procedures for testing, and clear guidance on best practices for avoiding and treating this disease, then the confidence of people in this country will rise. That is, in fact, why some people were pushing chloroquine, because they recognized that boosting confidence was important (unfortunately, they didn't have data to back that one up). Without that confidence, the economic stuff isn't going to recover quickly.
anotherparent posted:It took doctors two weeks to figure out that if they put patients who needed oxygen on their stomachs, they did better.
Gotta wonder why it took COVID-19 for medical doctors to realize moving a person into the prone position helps with breathing.
Every kid who's had the breath knocked out of them figures it out in about 3 seconds.
I'm no respiratory therapist but I've known quite a few. And if there any on here I'm sure they could chime in.
ABSORBER posted:anotherparent posted:It took doctors two weeks to figure out that if they put patients who needed oxygen on their stomachs, they did better.
Gotta wonder why it took COVID-19 for medical doctors to realize moving a person into the prone position helps with breathing.
Every kid who's had the breath knocked out of them figures it out in about 3 seconds.
I'm no respiratory therapist but I've known quite a few. And if there any on here I'm sure they could chime in.
The point of my post above was to show that "turn a patient onto their stomach" may just be another example of fake news. Lying on your stomach does not kill bacteria in your infected lungs and therefore is no cure for COVID-19 and the ailments caused by it as your body fights this virus. Sure it may help for a few minutes when a patient is having trouble breathing but it is certainly not a treatment and I doubt it's part of any protocol of any treating doctor or medical facility other than quick relief. And I have to think a sick patient lying on their stomach for any prolonged period could lead to all sorts of other complications. It's likely just a "feel good" story that's gathered momentum.
ABSORBER posted:ABSORBER posted:anotherparent posted:It took doctors two weeks to figure out that if they put patients who needed oxygen on their stomachs, they did better.
Gotta wonder why it took COVID-19 for medical doctors to realize moving a person into the prone position helps with breathing.
Every kid who's had the breath knocked out of them figures it out in about 3 seconds.
I'm no respiratory therapist but I've known quite a few. And if there any on here I'm sure they could chime in.
The point of my post above was to show that "turn a patient onto their stomach" may just be another example of fake news. Lying on your stomach does not kill bacteria in your infected lungs and therefore is no cure for COVID-19 and the ailments caused by it as your body fights this virus. Sure it may help for a few minutes when a patient is having trouble breathing but it is certainly not a treatment and I doubt it's part of any protocol of any treating doctor or medical facility other than quick relief. And I have to think a sick patient lying on their stomach for any prolonged period could lead to all sorts of other complications. It's likely just a "feel good" story that's gathered momentum.
It takes the weight of the heart off the lungs and allows more space for oxygen to fill them. So yes, it's a real thing. It's called prone positioning.
Chico Escuela posted:$2 trillion+ in brand new federal funds are rolling off the proverbial presses in coming months. There is going to be graft, waste and profiteering. I hope the media ferrets out what they can, whether it makes someone on my political "team" look bad or someone on yours. I saw the story above a few days ago. If it the details are in fact as the story makes them appear, then maybe some heads need to roll--whatever party the bodies attached to them are registered with.
One thing that has become abundantly clear is that the media will not do this. They will twist, distort, pull out-of-context, tell half-truths to make their side look good and Trump look bad. This you can bet the house on.
SomeBaseballDad posted:It takes the weight of the heart off the lungs and allows more space for oxygen to fill them. So yes, it's a real thing. It's called prone positioning.
I'm not saying it's not a real thing. As I said, any kid who's had the breath knock out of them figures it out pretty quickly. It's just not some new and wonderful discovery that "took doctors two weeks to figure out" while we have been in lockdown. That's the fake news.
ABSORBER posted:SomeBaseballDad posted:It takes the weight of the heart off the lungs and allows more space for oxygen to fill them. So yes, it's a real thing. It's called prone positioning.
I'm not saying it's not a real thing. As I said, any kid who's had the breath knock out of them figures it out pretty quickly. It's just not some new and wonderful discovery that "took doctors two weeks to figure out" while we have been in lockdown. That's the fake news.
"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles. Then a certain stable genius rebranded it as term used to describe anything that is critical of him.
Now I don't know what it means. Just anything anybody happens to disagree with? Or is it now a synonym for pieces that are poorly written or shoddily researched or just lazy reporting? Whatever - the effect of all this noise is that "fake news" in the original meaning is less likely to be flagged, and that 's dangerous..
Fifteen seconds on Google turned up these pieces, among many others. The writers vary in professionalism and talent, but I don't see anything fake about the pieces. The one thing I don't see on a quick read, that I saw in a similar piece somewhere is that doctors are alarmed by the high mortality rate among ventilated patients and are trying to avoid that any way they can, including with pronation. In one hospital in NY, I think, the are juryrigging CPAP machines. Anyway, these seem like honest attempts to report the news. What am i missing?
https://boston.cbslocal.com/20...s-prone-positioning/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/v...e-care/#4f996f34655b
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14...sitioning/index.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/ne...ances-surviving.html
Gotta wonder why everyone thinks testing will solve the issue of whether we are good to go opening things up.
a. We are looking for 3% - 12% infection which says we are less than the current 20% infection rate. So, I guess the thinking is fewer people have it so we are safe.
b. Agressive antibody testing. We are looking to see if more people than we know have already had it. Which would mean we are over the hump.
They seem to be in contradiction. Either we are safe because people haven't been infected or we are safe because lots of people have had it (herd immunity). Of course the real answer is we aren't safe until we've achieved herd immunity but that can't happen until lots of people have had it. So what's the better scenario?
Or of course we are just buying time until the beginning of summer (I'm betting less than 1 month) and the virus rolls out of here like many other respiratory infectious diseases. And then when the respiratory infection season rolls around again we could see a second wave: as in (a) above. Which means we are just delaying for the summer and back at in in late fall/early winter.
Or if (b) shows we are largely infected I guess the lockdown didn't achieve what it was supposed to achieve.
Here's hoping for (b) which means we will have failed and yet we will have won. Except for our economy of course...
Some doctors worry that illness and mortality from unaddressed health issues may rival the carnage produced by the virus in regions less affected by covid-19. And some expect they will soon see patients who have dangerously delayed seeking care as ongoing symptoms force them to overcome their fear.
Yet the 700-bed hospital in Charleston is only about 60 percent full, because like most facilities, MUSC discharged everyone it could to make room for the expected coronavirus surge. So far that hasn’t materialized. The hospital has not had more than 10 covid-19 patients admitted at any time, he said.
“We have five covid patients in the hospital right now, and we have five appendicitis cases” with complications from waiting too long to come in for care, Eriksson said.
JCG posted:
Add this one:
https://www.foxnews.com/media/...tween-life-and-death
It's entirely possible that it's all fake. I read them all now, I don't really like any of them. Best is to read medical preprints on MedRxiv.
JCG posted:"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles.
My definition of fake news: instead of reporting facts, pick and choose certain facts (or not) and arrange them in such a way as to push your agenda and/or institute change.
That's not news. That's fake news. And yes, our news media does exactly what you describe foreign propagandists (foreign intelligence services) as doing. Instead, our news media wants to push their agenda and institute change in our own country.
Nothing new as our country has been doing it to foreign countries for a very long time. I just don't want to see it being done by our own news media. I don't know about you but I want media that's impartial.
ABSORBER posted:Gotta wonder why everyone thinks testing will solve the issue of whether we are good to go opening things up.
a. We are looking for 3% - 12% infection which says we are less than the current 20% infection rate. So, I guess the thinking is fewer people have it so we are safe.
b. Agressive antibody testing. We are looking to see if more people than we know have already had it. Which would mean we are over the hump.
It's about confidence. If lots of people have had it (without knowing it), then the mortality rate is much, much lower. How much lower do we need for confidence, is the question? If fewer people have it, then it's much, much less likely for anyone to get it, even if they have to go to a doctor or hospital for something else. Again, that will make them more confident about getting back to normal. Right now, there is no confidence, because literally no-one knows.
They are testing hardly anyone in my town, or even my state. So, I have no idea what the situation actually is, only the death rates.
ABSORBER posted:SomeBaseballDad posted:It takes the weight of the heart off the lungs and allows more space for oxygen to fill them. So yes, it's a real thing. It's called prone positioning.
I'm not saying it's not a real thing. As I said, any kid who's had the breath knock out of them figures it out pretty quickly. It's just not some new and wonderful discovery that "took doctors two weeks to figure out" while we have been in lockdown. That's the fake news.
My husband is a severe asthmatic struggling through this pandemic. He was hospitalized in November with pneumonia, in January with a bronchial infection and February kidneys sterted to fail due to all the treatments, antibiotics, prednisone. He might have had the virus. He is waiting to get tested when doctor said he can.
He still doesn't feel well, which is typical of older corona survivors.
What SBD is describing, has been around for a long time, this is how they treated people with pneumonia before all new treatments came into vogue and now the norm.
It's not fake news and has nothing to do with getting the wind knocked out of you, in which case most remain lying on their back.
TPM posted:ABSORBER posted:SomeBaseballDad posted:It takes the weight of the heart off the lungs and allows more space for oxygen to fill them. So yes, it's a real thing. It's called prone positioning.
I'm not saying it's not a real thing. As I said, any kid who's had the breath knock out of them figures it out pretty quickly. It's just not some new and wonderful discovery that "took doctors two weeks to figure out" while we have been in lockdown. That's the fake news.
My husband is a severe asthmatic struggling through this pandemic. He was hospitalized in November with pneumonia, in January with a bronchial infection and February kidneys sterted to fail due to all the treatments, antibiotics, prednisone. He might have had the virus. He is waiting to get tested when doctor said he can.
He still doesn't feel well, which is typical of older corona survivors.
What SBD is describing, has been around for a long time, this is how they treated people with pneumonia before all new treatments came into vogue and now the norm.
It's not fake news and has nothing to do with getting the wind knocked out of you, in which case most remain lying on their back.
Dang, I can't win any arguments on this #@$# forum!!
Sorry to hear about your husband; I hope he feels better.
I am guessing you haven't had the wind knocked out of you too many times. Sure people may get on their back initially but then find they can't breathe which is why they generally get on their hands and knees after that--and that's what you should instruct them to do if you are helping them out.
It certainly is tough to get your point across on this site. The fake news is that "doctors discovered this in the last two weeks"--and I think I quoted that in every one of my responses.
ABSORBER posted:JCG posted:"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles.My definition of fake news: instead of reporting facts, pick and choose certain facts (or not) and arrange them in such a way as to push your agenda and/or institute change.That's not news. That's fake news. And yes, our news media does exactly what you describe foreign propagandists (foreign intelligence services) as doing. Instead, our news media wants to push their agenda and institute change in our own country.
I understand that you believe this. I don't. The fact that so many people have come to share your view is the 2nd most important achievement of modern movement conservatism.
But anyway, I still don't see what's fake about those pieces. Maybe there are some on the topic, but I have not seen them.
O.k., I'm the one who called it news. I'm perfectly happy to say that doctors always knew this, but then they realized that it was better for COVID patients than ventilators, and could actually improve things enough that they didn't need ventilators. The news was that they had tested the blood oxygen levels of people with coronvirus who were placed on their stomachs, and that the oxygen levels went back up to normal. That was the news. Given that every single news-site reported it, and that the following set of instructions recommend it (implying that it was not generally being used), perhaps we might consider it news:
JCG posted:ABSORBER posted:JCG posted:"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles.My definition of fake news: instead of reporting facts, pick and choose certain facts (or not) and arrange them in such a way as to push your agenda and/or institute change.That's not news. That's fake news. And yes, our news media does exactly what you describe foreign propagandists (foreign intelligence services) as doing. Instead, our news media wants to push their agenda and institute change in our own country.I understand that you believe this. I don't. The fact that so many people have come to share your view is the 2nd most important achievement of modern movement conservatism.
But anyway, I still don't see what's fake about those pieces. Maybe there are some on the topic, but I have not seen them.
JCG,
Just curious - what would you call what Absorber describes, if not fake news?
There is not a single media outlet that just reports facts. If there were, I woul choose or. I hate that agenda is built into every single news piece. Watch this, if it doesn’t concern you about news in the United States, it should.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_RHKmOovMfM
abd drifting further from baseball...
Smitty28 posted:JCG posted:ABSORBER posted:JCG posted:"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles.My definition of fake news: instead of reporting facts, pick and choose certain facts (or not) and arrange them in such a way as to push your agenda and/or institute change.That's not news. That's fake news. And yes, our news media does exactly what you describe foreign propagandists (foreign intelligence services) as doing. Instead, our news media wants to push their agenda and institute change in our own country.I understand that you believe this. I don't. The fact that so many people have come to share your view is the 2nd most important achievement of modern movement conservatism.
But anyway, I still don't see what's fake about those pieces. Maybe there are some on the topic, but I have not seen them.JCG,
Just curious - what would you call what Absorber describes, if not fake news?
Fox News.
TPM posted:My husband is a severe asthmatic struggling through this pandemic. He was hospitalized in November with pneumonia, in January with a bronchial infection and February kidneys sterted to fail due to all the treatments, antibiotics, prednisone. He might have had the virus. He is waiting to get tested when doctor said he can.He still doesn't feel well, which is typical of older corona survivors.
I hope that your husband is doing all right. It is beyond ridiculous that someone like him has not already been tested for this virus.
I never said which media and in fact I meant both sides of the fence. And I don't care for either side or any "side". I just want news! Facts! I really don't know where to turn for just plain news. BBC maybe? They seem to do a slightly better job at reporting U.S. news.
baseballhs posted:There is not a single media outlet that just reports facts. If there were, I woul choose or. I hate that agenda is built into every single news piece.
So would I, and so would many other people. I like ABC News, they have more stories about what is actually happening in the world, and fewer (but not no) opinion pieces.
RJM posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:luv baseball posted:Several thoughts -
If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time.
If you are not prepared to go that far.... then one must ponder the possibility that to a certain degree the medical people are pulling shit out of their asses and really don't know what is going to happen and are hazarding educated guesses. IMO this is much closer to the truth than there was ever going to be 2.2 million deaths.
This argument may have merit because no matter how much the Chinese are lying it is now doubtful this was ever as lethal as it was hyped to be in March. This does not mean it was not dangerous or that any mitigation was not warranted. But did we overreact? Someday we can assess that point.
Now we must consider recent news that the Chinese knowingly allowed this to spread globally. That means that is was an intentional act that is now responsible for roughly 20X Pearl Harbor or 9/11 deaths in US making it the most dangerous attack in US history. It will kill more US ciizens than either Vietnam or Korea.
We need to recognize this for what it was - a state sponsored decision to not contain it and to disrupt the world. It was reckless at best or criminal/terroristic at worst. IMO it is the later and we need to stop calling this thing anything but the Wuhan Virus. Naming names is part of the accountability that must happen.
Given that our greatest streagth as a nation is our economy the notion of putting it back on track has to be the highest priority if in fact we are now in a war (as I think we are) with the Chinese. What that means is that similar to the Cold War every citizen is now a soldier and needs to do their duty and go back to work if they are able.
It is now time for all of us to start pulling on the same end of he rope again. God Bless America.
"If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time."
Thanks for the laugh, the ditherer in chief called it a hoax, ignored intelligence, didn't mobilize the DPA quick enough.
Wants to blame WHO, but not the leader of China, because he has authoritarian characteristics.
Trump never called it a hoax. He called the media a hoax. The media is claiming he called the virus a hoax. Yet liberals don’t want to admit it and cling to this lie.
The first person died in 2/28. Trump shut down the border and the media and Democrats (sorry for the redundancy) screamed “xenophobia.”
Late February Nancy Pelosi was parading around San Francisco’s Chinatown telling people to ignore COVID and to eat out since there was nothing to be afraid of. Democrat NYC Mayor DiBlasio and the NYC Health Director were telling people the same two weeks later.
It’s looking to me like Democrats were asleep at the wheel trying to remove Trump from office (impeachment) over fraudulent charges and calling him a xenophobe over shutting down travel when they could have been paying attention to world affairs that could affect the county.
The last Democrat I posted this at told me I was dumber than a bag of rocks and he hopes I die from COVID so there would be one less stupid person in the world. They’re just facts. I thought he would appreciate facts, not get upset with them.
Revisionist history POtuS 50 - 8 + 3 state there was only 15 cases in the United States and they will be gone soon.
Can't make this stuff up.
FACTS ARE STUBBORN THINGS
just an fyi:
"proning" is not a new discovery...When son was 5, he was hospitalized with pneumonia. I stayed with him , "proned" him while I performed CPTs (chest physiotherapy = solid, cupped pats to rib cage) for 15 min each side, every 2 hours. Helps to break up mucus.
ABSORBER posted:Chico Escuela posted:Anyhow--I thought the stats in the article linked below from today's Washington Post were interesting. The authors have a point of view you may disagree with, but read it anyhow for the data. IMO they are a good demonstration both that covid-19 is a serious problem, and that the degree of seriousness is heavily dependent on geography.
I inserted a couple of charts from the article below. Here is the link:
While you may find the article interesting, by no means use it for the data. It is totally slanted in line with the Post's political agenda.
I posted the following from the latest CDC report at the time on this forum four days ago:
- Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths attributed to COVID-19 increased from 4.0% during week 13 to 6.9% during week 14. The percentage of deaths due to pneumonia (excluding COVID-19 or influenza) decreased from 7.5% during week 13 to 7.2% during week 14.
The reason I posted this was to show that common pneumonia deaths still exceeded COVID-19 deaths. Not meant to say COVID-19 deaths are insignificant, just that COVID-19 was not the dominant cause of P&I deaths. Do you honestly think this changed that dramatically in a weeks time? Note the Post just happened to throw in "pneumonitis" as an item in their graphic--the SMALLEST circle. What is "pneumonitis" you ask?
Pneumonia vs. pneumonitis. Pneumonitis is a term used to describe inflammation of the lung tissues without the presence of an infection, whereas pneumonia is inflammation caused by an infection.
Why would they include this? People die from this? Seriously? Where is pneumonia listed on this chart? Non-COVID-19 pneumonia? Also note that while COVID-19 deaths were increasing in week 14, non-flu and non-COVID-19 pneumonia deaths decreased and this is likely because testing for COVID-19 became paramount. Or not. Because people who died of pneumonia now are listed as probable deaths related to COVID-19. 125% insurance payout to providers, don't you know...
And notice the bar charts listed below. Are we to assume the data represented in the cascading graphic above is using the data in the bar charts below? I'm sure! Why hasn't the Post used data for the ENTIRE COUNTRY???!!!
I would stick to posting papers published in the scientific community and not some politically motivated piece authored by our "news" media.
CDC has been hijacked by Trump's political appointees. He initially scrubbed on the information, similar to what he has done with the EPA.
But you already know, that.
Next you will say "Trump wants to provide a better healthcare system."
I'm going to provide you one additional perspective.
Kushner headquarters use to be "666 5th Avenue". lol
JCG posted:Smitty28 posted:JCG posted:ABSORBER posted:JCG posted:"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles.My definition of fake news: instead of reporting facts, pick and choose certain facts (or not) and arrange them in such a way as to push your agenda and/or institute change.That's not news. That's fake news. And yes, our news media does exactly what you describe foreign propagandists (foreign intelligence services) as doing. Instead, our news media wants to push their agenda and institute change in our own country.I understand that you believe this. I don't. The fact that so many people have come to share your view is the 2nd most important achievement of modern movement conservatism.
But anyway, I still don't see what's fake about those pieces. Maybe there are some on the topic, but I have not seen them.JCG,
Just curious - what would you call what Absorber describes, if not fake news?
Fox News.
I thought you had a more nuanced view that would be an interesting take. My mistake.
baseballmom posted:just an fyi:
"proning" is not a new discovery...When son was 5, he was hospitalized with pneumonia. I stayed with him , "proned" him while I performed CPTs (chest physiotherapy = solid, cupped pats to rib cage) for 15 min each side, every 2 hours. Helps to break up mucus.
Doh!
anotherparent already owned up to making it sound as if it had been recently discovered; I don't think he meant to do that. I think we all agree that "proning" is nothing new.
Collegebaseballinsights, I don't mean to get personal here but...
Have you been tested lately? Are you feeling feverish?
collegebaseballinsights, you get it! 
On the media: We had a brief golden age in the early days of TV when there were only 3 networks and the equal time rule was in force. Cronkite, Huntley & Brinkley and their contemporaries do seem measured and moderate in retrospect. But the rule throughout history was that newspapers (and they were the only game in town for most of the relevant history) chose a side. While the country was considering whether to ratify the Constitution, there were Federalist and Anti-Federalist newspapers. Lincoln locked up several Democratic newspaper editors during the Civil War. William Randolph Hearst was not known for seeking objective reporting at the papers he owned.
Personally, I don't think it is possible to just report "facts." It would be incredibly boring, for one; but more importantly, the decisions about which facts to report and which to leave out are hugely important editorial decisions in themselves. We are fortunate to live in a era when a few keystrokes can call up news from around the world and across the political spectrum. IMO, it's incumbent on us to seek out different views and form our own opinions as best we can.
In other news, my wife the workaholic is keeping busy doing her job remotely during the week, but on weekends has too much time on her hands. Today, we had homemade cinnamon rolls for breakfast, and she just took a pie and some meringues out of the oven before starting to make dinner. Obesity is a risk factor for covid-19, as I recall. So I may be in trouble, folks...
anotherparent posted:TPM posted:My husband is a severe asthmatic struggling through this pandemic. He was hospitalized in November with pneumonia, in January with a bronchial infection and February kidneys sterted to fail due to all the treatments, antibiotics, prednisone. He might have had the virus. He is waiting to get tested when doctor said he can.He still doesn't feel well, which is typical of older corona survivors.
I hope that your husband is doing all right. It is beyond ridiculous that someone like him has not already been tested for this virus.
Thank you.
It's not that easy to get tested unless you present with symptoms. No one knew much about COVID end of last year. Doctors are only doing telemed or phone consults. Once they start serum testing and it let's up down here, he will go.
>Some doctors worry that illness and mortality from unaddressed health issues may rival the carnage produced by the virus in regions less affected by covid-19. And some expect they will soon see patients who have dangerously delayed seeking care as ongoing symptoms force them to overcome their fear.<
>Yet the 700-bed hospital in Charleston is only about 60 percent full, because like most facilities, MUSC discharged everyone it could to make room for the expected coronavirus surge. So far that hasn’t materialized. The hospital has not had more than 10 covid-19 patients admitted at any time, he said.
“We have five covid patients in the hospital right now, and we have five appendicitis cases” with complications from waiting too long to come in for care, Eriksson said.<
Smitty28 posted:JCG posted:Smitty28 posted:JCG posted:ABSORBER posted:JCG posted:"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles.My definition of fake news: instead of reporting facts, pick and choose certain facts (or not) and arrange them in such a way as to push your agenda and/or institute change.That's not news. That's fake news. And yes, our news media does exactly what you describe foreign propagandists (foreign intelligence services) as doing. Instead, our news media wants to push their agenda and institute change in our own country.I understand that you believe this. I don't. The fact that so many people have come to share your view is the 2nd most important achievement of modern movement conservatism.
But anyway, I still don't see what's fake about those pieces. Maybe there are some on the topic, but I have not seen them.JCG,
Just curious - what would you call what Absorber describes, if not fake news?
Fox News.
I thought you had a more nuanced view that would be an interesting take. My mistake.
Ooooohhh, sick burn!
There's much more to say on the topic but this is a baseball site and I regret it every time I allow myself to get sucked into politics.
Chico Escuela posted:On the media:
They lie, or they lie by omission. Look no further than Biden. He has a woman who has accused him of inappropriate conduct. Have you seen it covered, most likely not. Compare that to Kavanaugh. And it doesn't matter which might be/not be true. Only the way they were covered.
You just have to be really stupid, really nieve, or a complete homer to believe 80% of any news feeds.
This thread is heading for Tebow territory.
CNN is only lying if they are broadcasting! There isn’t one person who could speak truth if they had to. Going back to online poker now.
There are two kinds of fake news. Both sides of the political spectrum are guilty. There are the extreme news sites on either side who push unsourced lies and conspiracy. Then there are the more honest reporting sites that tell the truth but mislead by omitting facts that don’t fit their agenda. Unfortunately two formerly very respected sources who used to be “trusted, go to” news sources have fallen into this category ... The NY Times and Washington Post. I don’t know which nationally visible newspapers would fall into this category on the right. I know locally the Boston Herald would.
When I refer to the Times and the Post as formerly respected it’s based on all media is underwater in terms of trust by the public.
When you’re reading news sources you have to separate news from opinion. How someone interprets the news is not news.
As a country we’re in a place I try not to be. People now go to news sources that reinforce their belief system. We have two very diverse sources of news and each one believes the other is fake news.
I’m a right leaning libertarian. I’m registered as an Independent. I’m not going to BS anyone and say I’m purely independent. Very few Independents are actually independent. They’re people on both sides of the political spectrum who are disgusted enough with their former political party to still be in the party. But they’re more bothered by the opposition party to switch.
How I try to avoid being fed a mass of one sided information is get my news from a news aggregator. I get the same story reported by multiple sources on both side. Then I apply my beliefs against the various sources of information. I rarely watch cable news opinion shows.
When I encounter someone whose opinion I disagree rather than mock them I ask, “Why do you believe that to be true?” It’s a way to learn something. Accepting someone believes differently doesn’t mean having to agree with them.
My best friend’s (we were each other’s best man) parents had their career incomes paid for by the government. His career income has some straight from government or been funded by the government. His wife’s career has been the same.
My parents spent their careers in the corporate world. I started in the corporate world and became an entrepreneur.
Do you think my friend and I would agree on big government and regulation versus small government and deregulation? Do you think we even attempt to debate it?
Re politics
I normally don’t wear political clothes. But I had to once to watch a friend’s wife I don’t care for overreact. The tee said ... CHOOSE LIFE. She went nuts screaming I’m pro life. I told her personally I’m pro life. But as a libertarian the decision someone else makes is none of my business. She didn’t calm down a bit. I might as well have lit a grenade under her when I asked, “So the only two options are “choose life”and “kill babies?”
If people could actually debate abortion on a rational instead of emotional level it would be one of the great intellectual debates.
RJM posted:This thread is heading for Tebow territory.
I was thinking the same thing. Here he is in February 2020
ABSORBER posted:JCG posted:"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles.My definition of fake news: instead of reporting facts, pick and choose certain facts (or not) and arrange them in such a way as to push your agenda and/or institute change.That's not news. That's fake news. And yes, our news media does exactly what you describe foreign propagandists (foreign intelligence services) as doing. Instead, our news media wants to push their agenda and institute change in our own country.Nothing new as our country has been doing it to foreign countries for a very long time. I just don't want to see it being done by our own news media. I don't know about you but I want media that's impartial.
I am a reporter, editor and publisher and have been in a town of 15,000 for 30 years. The fact is that most reporters do their best to watch an event or listen to what someone says or what a group of people do and write about that as accurately as possible. The problem is you don't like the facts that are reported, so you dismiss it as fake news.
I don't have time to make up news .I'm too busy covering what actually is happening in my community.
It’s not making it up. It’s letting your personal opinions find their way into a report. In my definition of news, I can’t tell what side you believe in or your thoughts politically. You present facts and I get to decide. No one can actually do that anymore. It’s here are the facts and here is what you should think about them.
I liked this site better when I had no idea of anyone’s politics
baseballhs posted:It’s not making it up. It’s letting your personal opinions find their way into a report. In my definition of news, I can’t tell what side you believe in or your thoughts politically. You present facts and I get to decide. No one can actually do that anymore. It’s here are the facts and here is what you should think about them.
I liked this site better when I had no idea of anyone’s politics
Just respect people for having an opinion no matter how bleep’ed it is. 😁
baseballhs posted:You present facts and I get to decide.
Here's the problem with that. I recently covered a meeting in which our mayor appointed someone to a board. The council voted it down 6-0. Apparently there was a second candidate that he did not nominate. (our mayor and our council hate each other and I have to take a Tums every time I write about their meetings.)
I am friends with every person on the council and the mayor. I have worked on committees with them, I have written about them. They are every single one nice people, just not to each other.
After the meeting someone who I went to kindergarten with called to tell me that it was clear I supported the mayor because if i was unbiased, I would have written that the mayor didn't nominate a qualified candidate instead of that the council voted against the person he did nominate.
I presented facts. She judged. That's what she came up with.
If you really want to just have facts, find them yourself. Watch the news conferences, review the statistics as they roll in. I hope you can keep up because it's a full-time job. They are out there, just most people don't have the time or energy or knowledge to seek them out. It's easier to judge those who do it.
Sorry — I think the council thing has been making me mad for a couple of weeks now. Just please for my sanity stick to debating the disease, not the people who cover it.
Iowamom23 posted:baseballhs posted:You present facts and I get to decide.
Here's the problem with that. I recently covered a meeting in which our mayor appointed someone to a board. The council voted it down 6-0. Apparently there was a second candidate that he did not nominate. (our mayor and our council hate each other and I have to take a Tums every time I write about their meetings.)
I am friends with every person on the council and the mayor. I have worked on committees with them, I have written about them. They are every single one nice people, just not to each other.
After the meeting someone who I went to kindergarten with called to tell me that it was clear I supported the mayor because if i was unbiased, I would have written that the mayor didn't nominate a qualified candidate instead of that the council voted against the person he did nominate.
I presented facts. She judged. That's what she came up with.
If you really want to just have facts, find them yourself. Watch the news conferences, review the statistics as they roll in. I hope you can keep up because it's a full-time job. They are out there, just most people don't have the time or energy or knowledge to seek them out. It's easier to judge those who do it.
Sorry — I think the council thing has been making me mad for a couple of weeks now. Just please for my sanity stick to debating the disease, not the people who cover it.
And just as a note, I'm a Democrat. My husband was a state office holder for years so that would have been hard to hide so we don't. We tell people about our political affiliation and promise to do our best to be fair to both sides and invite people who think we aren't fair to tell us what's wrong and why. Some of my best sources are Republicans who respect that.
I think that's the best way to do it because you do chose which facts to include, which comments from which person, etc. I do my very best to be fair to everyone, and I think that's all anyone can ask. And if I fail, I just want someone to tell me what they think I did wrong. Respectfully.
Now I'm taking off my news hat. Sorry for the rant.
Ripken Fan posted:RJM posted:This thread is heading for Tebow territory.
I was thinking the same thing. Here he is in February 2020
Just when I thought there is no way this thread could get any worse....
Iowamom23 posted:baseballhs posted:You present facts and I get to decide.
Here's the problem with that. I recently covered a meeting in which our mayor appointed someone to a board. The council voted it down 6-0. Apparently there was a second candidate that he did not nominate. (our mayor and our council hate each other and I have to take a Tums every time I write about their meetings.)
I am friends with every person on the council and the mayor. I have worked on committees with them, I have written about them. They are every single one nice people, just not to each other.
After the meeting someone who I went to kindergarten with called to tell me that it was clear I supported the mayor because if i was unbiased, I would have written that the mayor didn't nominate a qualified candidate instead of that the council voted against the person he did nominate.
Did you present the facts about the qualifications of the candidate? I mean you must have written the facts as to why they voted against the person. Perhaps he/she was voted down for reasons other than qualifications? All of us get second guessed in our jobs but journalists have it a little worse because their job is the most visible job out there. With a husband in politics, I have to suspect you have a thick skin so I will withhold my advice to forget about the kindergarten critique.
Political bias in reporting is rampant though. As readers, you may have to go to 2-3 articles to get the full range of views where you then can form opinions based on multiple skews.
Very sorry to beat this dead horse again, but I happened to run into a link to this story this morning.
What Doctors on the Front Lines Wish They’d Known a Month Ago: https://nyti.ms/3chAos8
Not fake. There are good journalists doing good work letting us see what's going on in the front lines of this struggle. We are fortunate to have them.
baseballhs posted:
I liked this site better when I had no idea of anyone’s politics
Completely agree which is why I’m strongly considering deleting my account.
I have strong political beliefs which guide many of the decisions I make in life, but a rarely openly discuss them. For one, I’m a pretty private person and I feel no need to try to influence other with my beliefs. My wife once wanted to get those car stick figure stickers showing the members of our family. I asked, why do we need to show everyone we have 3 kids, a cat and dog? No!
I know 50% of our population see things differently than me, which I’m 100% OK with and respect that. But once you start verbalizing those beliefs and try to influence me, I lose respect for you. I can’t help it. Unfortunately, that has happened to several members, whom I previously respected. I’m trying to overlook this, and hopefully when baseball returns, I can be a bigger man and put some of the things I’ve read behind me.
It’s not just reporters/journalists. I also think educators’ political opinions should be a mystery to their students. It frustrates me to hear my kids come home and tell me about political rants that teachers of professors went on. The job is to facilitate learning. Start conversations. Question rationale...for both sides. I don’t think a student should ever know where they stand. That’s hard, but makes them a good teacher. To me, news should be facts. There are plenty of opinion shows Opinion pieces, , blogs. It’s hard to report facts for both sides, but that’s the challenge unless it’s openly an opinion piece. Just my opinion.
baseballhs posted:It’s not just reporters/journalists. I also think educators’ political opinions should be a mystery to their students. It frustrates me to hear my kids come home and tell me about political rants that teachers of professors went on. The job is to facilitate learning. Start conversations. Question rationale...for both sides. I don’t think a student should ever know where they stand. That’s hard, but makes them a good teacher. To me, news should be facts. There are plenty of opinion shows Opinion pieces, , blogs. It’s hard to report facts for both sides, but that’s the challenge unless it’s openly an opinion piece. Just my opinion.
and we know how that is going...unless someone cares to debate that as well.
CTbballDad posted:baseballhs posted:
I liked this site better when I had no idea of anyone’s politics
Completely agree which is why I’m strongly considering deleting my account.
I have strong political beliefs which guide many of the decisions I make in life, but a rarely openly discuss them. For one, I’m a pretty private person and I feel no need to try to influence other with my beliefs. My wife once wanted to get those car stick figure stickers showing the members of our family. I asked, why do we need to show everyone we have 3 kids, a cat and dog? No!
I know 50% of our population see things differently than me, which I’m 100% OK with and respect that. But once you start verbalizing those beliefs and try to influence me, I lose respect for you. I can’t help it. Unfortunately, that has happened to several members, whom I previously respected. I’m trying to overlook this, and hopefully when baseball returns, I can be a bigger man and put some of the things I’ve read behind me.
Don't go. Take a break if you have to, but don't delete your account.
JCG posted:Very sorry to beat this dead horse again, but I happened to run into a link to this story this morning.
What Doctors on the Front Lines Wish They’d Known a Month Ago: https://nyti.ms/3chAos8
Not fake. There are good journalists doing good work letting us see what's going on in the front lines of this struggle. We are fortunate to have them.
Good article, thanks.
old_school posted:Iowamom23 posted:Iowamom23 posted:baseballhs posted:
And just as a note, I'm a Democrat.
you are already stated you are a reporter, that means there was a 95% chance of you being a democrat.
obviously by your rant you care to put out facts, you may not have noticed but that is not what happens in the national media, the large papers or the cable news...facts are not relevant, they take cabinet members of past administrations and present them as objective journalist, they twist, the outright lie and the American people know it. Everyone of them.
Just like this board, many will defend them, lie for them, and mock any who disagree because it supports their core belief of "orange man bad" - the rest which actually include many on both sides just know they are lying because they have ears and it is plainly evident anyone with a stitch of honestly and common sense.
it is funny but does anyone remember the term the silent majority?
Totally unfair of you to go on a rant after Iowamom23. She was just expressing and sharing her thoughts on a situation. I didnt see anything political in what she said, and pointing out that she was a Democrat, after she gave us that information seemed to be totally unintentional to make her out as the enemy.
Correct me if I am wrong, but what's your problem?
old_school posted:baseballhs posted:It’s not just reporters/journalists. I also think educators’ political opinions should be a mystery to their students. It frustrates me to hear my kids come home and tell me about political rants that teachers of professors went on. The job is to facilitate learning. Start conversations. Question rationale...for both sides. I don’t think a student should ever know where they stand. That’s hard, but makes them a good teacher. To me, news should be facts. There are plenty of opinion shows Opinion pieces, , blogs. It’s hard to report facts for both sides, but that’s the challenge unless it’s openly an opinion piece. Just my opinion.
and we know how that is going...unless someone cares to debate that as well.
No interest in debating it, but I teach at a state U and see things closer up than most parents. (I also have a kid in college and a senior in HS.) I teach constitutional law, and most weeks I post a newspaper article or three to my class web site that relates to issues relevant to my courses. So, for example, I have posted several things about the scope of federal and state power to deal with epidemics. We also talk about abortion, religious freedom, euthanasia. In short, there is no getting away from "politics" given what I teach.
Most of my students' anonymous year-end evaluations tell me I run a balanced classroom. I can honestly say no one has ever accused me of showing bias. But there are some issues where I have to say "there is no mainstream constitutional scholar who agrees with this viewpoint." Some of those situations mean I am "taking sides" in a political debate. I hesitate to even give an example, but the most recent case was the news conference where the President and Vice-President asserted that the President has plenary power in an emergency. I don't know of any lawyer or scholar (I am an attorney) anywhere on the political spectrum who supported that contention. And I told my students so.
Why the long story? I think some claims about bias in teaching are overblown. Students are not always very well informed politically, and young folks often hold extreme views, left or right. I think they also sometimes don't recognize when a teacher is trying to provoke discussion. (I tell my students all the time not to assume what I say in class reflects my personal opinions. When we study the pre-Civil War era, for example, I'm usually the only one who will lay out the legal arguments underlying the claims of slave owners. But no, I am not in favor of slavery.)
Professors ought to avoid political bias, but they also don't want to be in the position of saying "is the earth flat? opinions differ..." As Carl Sagan said "It pays to keep an open mind. But not so open that your brains fall out."
I'm not as opposed to college level, and even some high school level, teachers discussing politics in a rational debate. I don't think elementary and really even middle school teachers need to discuss their political beliefs with their students.
I love this board. I like the people who post here. This thread has been enlightening, and has also, I think, been a release valve for some of us (maybe those, like me, who don't do any other social media). I also think that this particular thread has contained the virus from contaminating some of the other actual baseball threads, and that has been good. However, even this thread is deteriorating. I would say it should be closed, as political threads always are on here, except that I fear that then the virus would spread to the other threads that have managed to stay focused on baseball. So, if you don't like it, don't read it.
We are all stressed, and there is no baseball. For the past two years, when I get stressed (with 3 boys, that's much of the time), I read old HSBBW threads, I find it oddly relaxing to read about other people's baseball problems from years ago. There are tens of thousands of threads. Right now I am in about 2012 in the recruiting threads, working forward. There are amazing posts and stories in there; guess what, almost all of them have to do with baseball.
So, if you miss the old baseball discussions, I recommend going and reading some old threads. Maybe it will help.
I agree @anotherparent. There were a couple political posts in another thread that had been politics free until that point. Having this thread a political dump may be good for everyone.
Before this topic closes. If you haven't seen last night's 60 Minutes, you should.
I still think this thread has provided some interesting viewpoints on coronavirus that I have appreciated. The Trump talk is what got me to quit social media, and I just hope it doesn't fully hijack this thread (well, it has, but I hope the thread can return back to coronavirus, even if it is not baseball-related). Let me say, when I read an article about the facts like JCG posted, I find it very interesting. When articles turn into referendums on Trump, I ignore them.
Trying to get back on track, with the caveat that this could be a unique situation, I found an article that I found interesting on Sweden. https://reason.com/2020/04/17/...wns-in-the-long-run/
Good post, let's try to keep in on corona virus and leave politics out of the discussion.
We NEED Got Wood for Sale like no other time! Come back for a visit, woody! Shape up our ship!
Chico Escuela posted:luv baseball, who is the "they" behind this nefarious conspiracy theory? And how did they get to Fauci, Birx, and so many other medical and public health professionals? And get so many other countries to go along?
Disagree (using 20/20 hindsight) with the decisions elected officials from both parties in most of the nation took if you want. But there is no shadowy cabal behind the events of the past few months.
Chico -" they" are Fauci etc. If you want mass voluntary compliance from people in the US there only two ways to get it - at the point of a gun - or scare the hell out of them.
So my point is pretty simple and there isn't any conspiracy theory invovlved. It is my assessment of the message the government has chosen to convey and our response to it.
But to recap my point of view in full: I have serious doubts that the medical community has any true insight into what the oucome would have been had we limited the response to simply staying further apart, stop touching, washing hands etc. I think the estimate of 2.2 million dead was stupid and unrealistic and was never going to happen.
So with the great Dr. Fauci and others guiding the way the plan was developed to slow the spread...or flatten the curve by asking for widespread shutdown.
How to make that happen voluntarily? Scare everyone to death with insane predictions rather than anything approaching a qualified statement. In other words End of times type talk.
They were covering their asses. It gets back to my joke about Trump saving 2 million lives. All politicians operate on the narrative of defining what success is. I we tell you 2 million will die and only 60k die … see it worked! We are great and beneficent leaders and we declare victory ….vote for me.
We bought it for about a 6 weeks and now the growing sentiment is enough is enough I want my life back and I do not believe this is the end of the world so I will take the risk.
At that my friends is truly what being an American is and should be.
luv baseball posted:Chico Escuela posted:luv baseball, who is the "they" behind this nefarious conspiracy theory? And how did they get to Fauci, Birx, and so many other medical and public health professionals? And get so many other countries to go along?
Disagree (using 20/20 hindsight) with the decisions elected officials from both parties in most of the nation took if you want. But there is no shadowy cabal behind the events of the past few months.
I will take the risk.
As long as you only risk yourself, I'm fine with that. Unfortunately, I'm sure you will have to go to the grocery store, or the gas station or some other place and I will have to go there too and then you put me at risk. I really hate the "we're all in this together" commercials, but there is some truth to it.
@Iowamom23 How are any of the places you mentioned less risky than pretty much anything other than going to a professional sporting event or crowded movie theater? Is he more likely to get infected at the beach or the grocery store?
Iowamom23 posted:As long as you only risk yourself, I'm fine with that. Unfortunately, I'm sure you will have to go to the grocery store, or the gas station or some other place and I will have to go there too and then you put me at risk. I really hate the "we're all in this together" commercials, but there is some truth to it.
Why do you think luv baseball is putting you at risk if you encounter him in the future at a grocery store? Because of his beliefs? Why isn’t he at risk because you are there? What makes you any less risky? Because you think we should all be in this together?
The only way neither one of you will be at risk is if neither one of you are there. So, in essence, a true lockdown. And this is simply not possible.
There are thousands of sites where people may debate politics.
This isn't one of them.
This site is for talking about baseball.
I'll be nice to you no matter who you vote for.
This thread is closed.