Lets Talk Pitching - Ask/Discussion about pitching from professional instructor

@roothog66

 

Thanks.  I try not to delay handbreak much as I feel many pitchers break too late as it is but I think that is something I'm going to have to do at this point.  I'm also hoping as we have some more time outside and in the bullpen things will improve with more pitching.  Saying our weather has been poor would be optimistic we weren't even on a field for the 1st two weeks of practice, and have had 4 games postponed because of rain and many fewer bullpens than usual.

 

I'm not sure I was directly criticizing you for the ice comments; sometimes posts show up next, and that wasn't necessarily the post that was being responded to.  The intent of my comment was for a couple of people, one of which the way I was reading it was saying icing is bad and basically criticized my trainer, and suggested ice has no use and then comments how his son recovers by taking freezing cold showers.

 

Also, I just want to go back and touch on my opinion of running for pitchers since I think we have identified what we are talking about for distance running.  I to would not be in favor of running any baseball players to what some have identified as 3+ or even 5-20 miles.  I don't need a scientific study to tell me that is a waste of time and likely leads to the build up of more lactic acid.

 

Which brings me to another point, I've been reading all these posts  on lactic acid build up in pitchers and sort of have to point out.  Lactic acid is created when muscles are stressed usually for a long amount of time and cannot get the amount of oxygen needed.  Distance runners actually work on raising their lactic threshold that so that the body can more efficiently remove the lactic acid from the system.  So I would like to see actual numbers of the amount of lactic acid produced by baseball players during pitching.  With the rest between the limited activity my "guess" would be that there would be limited production. So technically on the question of running flushing out the lactic acid, I agree it is not needed.

 

 However if lactic acid did build up to a middle distance running program between 1000-1600m at certain intensities could be useful for processing the lactic acid.

 

 

Pitchers can achieve the same results (whatever that may be) after a long outing by using a stationary bike.  Running is kind of tough on the knees. 

 

Some pitchers prefer ice, some don't, anything one does is usually  a matter of preference.

 

 

I'll agree that LD running can help overall conditioning and doesn't hurt anything as long as you aren't using it in place of something that helps more - like sprints. Very good point that the same aerobic conditioning can be attained through other methods that are less stressful on the joints.

 

Here's my ultimate opinion on icing. It doesn't help recovery, but probably only retards it a little bit. So, mainly, I see it as a physical waste of time. However, I can buy into the argument that you make which I read as being basically, if it's a personal choice, any recovery loss from icing is probably at the very least compensated for by the magic of confidence in the process. In other words - to each his own or "whatever floats your boat."

Actually, there have been several studies proving that lactic acid build up is pretty much a myth. Any build up is long gone by the end of a pitching performance. This, from Eric Cressey's site:

"

The current practice utilized for conditioning is for pitchers is to go for a long run the day after a game to “flush” the sore arm of lactic acid, or minimize muscle soreness to recover faster for the next game.  These theories are not supported by the current literature and the physiology of the sport.

In the current research study examining the physiology of pitching, Potteiger et al. (1992) found no significant difference between pre-pitching and post-pitching blood lactate levels of six college baseball players after throwing a 7-inning simulated game. Even though during an inning there is a slight lactate production of 5.3-5.8 mM, (which is not high, considering resting lactate is 1.0mM), it does not cause a buildup of lactic acid in the arm of a pitcher after a game. As a comparative example, a high lactate response would occur from squatting for multiple reps at about 70% 1RM; this might produce a lactate level of about 8-10mM (Reynolds et al., 1997).  Furthermore, jogging to flush the arm of lactic acid after a start is unnecessary and not supported by the literature, especially since we learned all the way back in 2004 that lactate was not the cause of muscular fatigue ; even the New York Times reported on this in 2007! A lot of coaches simply haven’t caught wind yet – in spite of the fact that exercise physiology textbooks have been rewritten to include this new information."

I guess we can agree on this.

Been reading and following this for awhile. 

 

I feel like there is a danger in assuming we can 100% blend science and sports. I've seen many posters with possibly no scientific background quoting scientific studies some of which have little to do with baseball.  If science were perfect we would never have to play the game.

 

So I want to address a few things from my experience.

 

Lactic Acid.does not build up in any major way in a pitchers arm. Thus a run after pitching is not needed to flush it out.  Having said that I normally ran about two miles the day after a start before practice to warm my entire body up.  I don't necessarily like promoting a supplement but potassium before you pitch or do any significant exercise a will lessen the stiffness of any workout.

 

Ice:  Personally I always iced after the game however it was normally 10 on 20 off twice throughout college.  I find this a coaching and personal  choice. We have two pitchers who do not everyone else does. Our pitchers rarely throw more than 1 game a week as starters and usually come back as a reliever which is one of our attempts to protect arms.  Cooling the arm after a game seems to be important for recovery.  The overwhelming majority of trainers and orthopedics I have had contact with do not consider it a valid study, feeling tests need to be larger in scope when it come to basic recovery.

 

Please research any instructors and approach with caution anyone claiming to increase velocity.  Some instructors claim big successes when they should not.  Example: one instructor I know of claims 2 students progressing 9 and 10 miles an hour from the end of their freshmen year to the start of the season the next year because of his revolutionary theories. He fails to mention both kids grew 3 inches and an average of 15 pds over that period.  If your son is still physically developing please make sure instructor is focusing on good mechanics not throwing harder, especially preteens and middle schoolers.

 

Someone asked what a coach had his pitchers do.

We have a pitcher who is throwing in d2 and his general program outline from last year was:

 

2 weeks after end of season,.no activity.

Middle of June to end of July played on a travel ball team. Pitched one game a tournament usually on weekend.  Monday and Thursday. 3 mile run, light weights and core, throwing program.  Tuesday and Friday. Throwing program flat ground mechanics depending on travel schedule..  Wednesday.  Bullpen  60+ pitches minimum  +  spartan workout + pyramid sprint workout. If he didn't have a game on the weekend we would rework for two bps.

 

August:  throwing program with light weight including bands  lots of cross training. Basketball. Soccer.  Cardio on machines etc.

 

From September through October  we play in a fall ball league.  Workout similar to July except 2 bullpens not long.

 

November. December January: No throwing plus he played basketball.

February.   Throwing program 2 days, 1 day bullpen starting out around 30 pitches increasing each week until practice starts.

March.  In general our pitchers are broken up almost like college starters which is possible because of the excellent schedule our head coach puts together. So normally we have someone covering monday\tuesday,  one Wednesday at bursary. And he was Friday starter. If by chance we needed to change he took on our toughest opponents. Generally he was on throwing program every day with bullpens 2x a week with some varied running and conditioning mainly legs and core.  Day after start was a short throwing program day before short bp. His long bp was on Monday. Long bullpen was never more than 90 pitches.

 

Topped out at 84 mph, 9-1 record w\ 3 saves.  1.88 era, 11k/9 

 

No arm issues and he did ice after every start.

 

 

Cheesy you are right I am sure a lot of people commenting are not scientists.   I am not.  Sooner or later you just have to pick someone to believe in.  Personally I chose Cressey.  But I am always open minded if something seems to make sense.  But you can not say that if it were a perfect science we would have it all figured out cause baseball coaches tend to be very close minded and stubborn.  Even when science hits them in the face many coaches turn their back on it citing what good ole coach so in so once said.  So do I know for sure if running distance is good or bad?  Not really.  Do I know for sure if icing is good or bad?  Not really.  But the important thing is we do our research and make as informed an opinion as possible.

P.S. I would not be satisfied with any workout regiment that topped my pitcher out at 84.

The biggest problem IMO with any of this stuff is people generally equate a theory with scientific fact. The problem with health and fitness is very very very few theories have been proven or even disproven. Most studies simply lean the researcher toward or away from believing in a particular theory.

I got my BS in kenisiology in the early 90's. My masters in exercise science in the 00's. And have just started working toward a doctorate. Being that spread out I've had a unique viewing of just how much the "science" changes. Literally what we do one decade is the worst thing we can do the next. Problem is its a new theory not a disproval of the previous theory.

People ask me all the time about things like icing. My answer I don't know and neither does anyone else. Some have opinions and are more than happy to proclaim that opinion as fact but they don't really know either.

Icing a pitchers arm is the perfect example. Yes icing can theoretically slow down recovery by constricting blood vessels and limiting recovery needed nutrients. But how many pitchers pitch that mornig and then need to recover to pitch that night? With a day's rest it won't matter either way. But some take "slow down recovery" meaning 6 hours instead of 5 hours and change it to ruin your arm. It's the way propaganda works. It's called marketing and there are multiple billions of reasons to market the fitness industry.

When those with PhD's are still disagreeing on a subject. That subject is no where near being conclusive. Don't dismiss something that's worked for years because a new theory says so nor do you hang on to something just because it's been done for years. Athletes need to know their body first and for most. Try new and old methods alike and listen to what "their body" tells them about its success, not what the person making the profit off it tells them.

@ joiletboy

 

Would I have liked for him to increase his velocity, yes. 

I was also only the pitching coach for his last 3 years.

When he came in as sophomore he was in the high sixties mechanics were an issue.. We are not a huge school system and we don't have 60 + guys coming out for jv and another 40 for varsity. And a majority of our kids do not travel ball throughout the summer and fall. So we have to identify potential talent and develop it.

 

He made his college team and is up to 87 that has come with putting on 10 pounds and has never had an arm injury. I'll take that ALL the time.

 

BTW: you imply that 84 is bad. The vast majority of h.s. pitchers rarely get to 80. And many that claim to throw high 80s don't. Just a little story.  My 2nd year I was scouting a team and there was a "college" scout there radar gun in hand. The senior pitcher he was looking at we had played the week before and clocked at 82 max we have a stadium gun and one of our assistants records every pitch. The kid came over to the scout and asked him how he did and he told him his average was 87. Don't believe all these mph people tell you.

 I dont think he was implying 84.  I wouldnt settle either for any workworkout program that maxes you out at 84.  Of course it all depends on the individual as well.

@ TPM

 

I have seen posters elsewhere wondering what type of program a coach had their kids on. I simply replied with what our guy who is now d2  did. Very few have posted anything. I tink he meant why is that program any good if it just maxed the kid at 84.   Multitudes of high school pitchers throwing in the high 80s is a myth. So I'm completely happy with this. Considering his distaste for Olympic type lifts and a metabolism that was on high all the time which made gaining weight difficult.

 

If I can max every senior pitcher I work with at 84\85 heck even breaking into the 80s I will be beyond happy especially if there are no injury issues. That is plenty fast enough to get a look at from colleges. After that I'll let the college pitching coach do the rest considering you study workout and play ball almost the entire school year.

I am not going to debate your pitching philosophy with you.  Every pitcher is different and all depends left/ right.

Be aware that many folks here have frosh, sophs and juniors hitting close to 90, so they wont agree they would be happy if their sons maxed at 84/85 because their goals are to play higher than D2.

Just sayin....

 

Scotty83 = Smartest guy in the room , keep grinding towards that PHD..super impressive amigo and i'm being serious.

 

My son was at 84-86 touching 88 the summer after his sophmore year. I wish we had some formula or specific routine to equate to that result. In looking back i think that was his natural velo range, genetically with whatever throwing he was doing in season. 

 

Now after his sophmore year in the fall, he hit the weight room and also LOVES to run...i call it sprinting the mile but i am on an old guy. Spring opener he came out at 92. Since then routine has been pitcher specifc workouts with weights, dumbells etc and he is up to 95. I agree some guns are not as accurate but we listen to the scouts and his travel gun which is a Stalker II. Velo is not the only thing....but we are looking for a 6 or 7 when it warms up.

 

 

More than likely the combo of better conditioning routine, weight gain, physical maturity, etc has yielded results. I am sure he was never meant to max at 84-85.

       
       
Cheesy I rarely believe anything people tell me lol.  But don't feel like the lone ranger here.  Lots of people who chime in on these pitching threads are long time pitching coaches including myself.  Many others are moms/dads of current or former college/pro pitchers.  Its a pretty informed group.  I would just amend what you say a bit.  There are not an abundance of hs kids throwing 80+ IN BAD PROGRAMS.  good programs they are a dime a dozen.  Most all our pitchers were 80's to 90's where I coached in illinois.  I now enter my second year with a school that has never really had any success and yes we are hurting for velocity.  Coincidentally enough our ace last year topped at 84.  As a senior this year I hope we can get him to 87 maybe 88 with the wind at his back.  And we have a couple young kids we are going to try and groom to be mid 80's guys.  It is a struggle for sure.  Hopefully some day soon we can be talking 90 rather than mid 80's.   The point is simply I don't think 84 is a number to make anyone stand up and notice.  Not criticizing cause like I said I am going through the same thing.  But I will tell you one thing if my own son tops at 84 as a senior he will be extremely disappointed.  There is nothing wrong with d2 or d3.  I just think as TPM said most people on here have higher goals.  If my son plays d3 someday I will go watch him and be proud.  But its not the goal.

@shoveit4ks

 

That is awesome.  I think that partially goes back to you have to have the genetics and athletic ability and it sounds like you son has plenty of that.  It also sound like he has developed the "right" (for no better term)  way in that he had that natural ability and probably smooth mechanics that got him to mid 80's, then as his body matured more between sophomore and junior years and he started working out more.

 

I'm saying those kids are the exception, not the rule, I'm assuming he is wanting to get drafted and not do the college thing.

 

I just saw this and thought it was interesting:

 

2015 roster makeup

2 year college:  69

4 year college: 397

High School:  204

International:  197  (not sure of ages of these guys)

 

That is 69% of current rosters, excluding international players were drafted from college.

@jolietboy

 

What size school?

Given the comments regarding the potential benefits of icing after pitching, can someone describe (in relative detail) exactly how one ices a pitching arm?  Is it like Bad News Bears with a bucket of ice for the elbow or does it involve a couple of icing bags to potentially cover shoulder/elbow and possibly wrist (especially when tendonitis may occassionally flare up)?  Also read about the big no-no about putting ice directly on either ligaments or tendons or possibly one specific ligament/tendon.

I don't see an abundance of kids throwing high eighties in high school. Even looking at reports from PBR events in several states, I don't see a lot of high eighties to nineties. Most good programs will have at least three guys throwing 85+, but there are a lot of programs with only one or two. My son is at a 3A school in Colorado and they dominate with three guys throwing 83-85. In addition, I know of only one other 3A program in our state that can match that. A few of the 5A schools will have bigger numbers. Here in Colorado, I can only name about five or six guys that throw 90's.  However, I think many look at the big Florida/Georgia/California/texas schools like where Boltz's kids play and get the idea that this is the norm. It's not. In fact, I watched three D1 games this weekend outside the top conferences. What I saw was a lot of pitchers throwing low eighties and high seventies. In fact, watching the lafayett-Navy game, neither starter got above 83mph and routinely threw at 78-79.

No pitcher in our state tournament finals last year hit higher than 85.

How many high schools in "Out There", USA?

To what study are you referring? I personally don't know of any actual studies. The idea that icing is detremental to recovery is based on research which shows what happens physically when ice is applied. It reduces swelling by constricting blood flow in the capallaries that service muscles, tendons, and ligaments. This alleviates pain and swelling, but hinders recovery time. Inflammation is the body's attempt to repair damaged muscles and ligaments. Now, if you've done extensive damage like a sprained ankle or broken leg, then alleviating the swelling in order to alleviate the pain and slow the flow of blood - which in drastic cases is much greater than with normal muscle use - is medically beneficial as the need to alleviate the swelling and pain greatly outweighs any small reduction in recovery time associated with icing. However, for normal arm discomfort (soreness) associated with normal pitching activity, ice makes little sense as the discomfort isn't anyhting unbearable and is just a sign that the body is repairing small damage to itself. I used to have my kid use ibuprofin for such pain, but have discontinued due to some research on the dangers of consistent use of NSAIDs. There is an argument for icing that contends that after a certain period of time (around 15-20 minutes) of icing, the blood vessels actually adjust by dilating and then provide more blood flow. However, most icing programs for arms don't advise keeping the ice on for that long, so this benefit, known as the "Hunting effect," never comes into play. In the end, though, I doubt icing delays recovery to any degree that would make me tell a kid that actually believes it helps that he needs to stop.

       
       
Root was this on ESPN or something?  I was shocked when I gunned some D2 pitchers in the 70's recently.  I just don't understand.   How hard is it to throw 80mph?  It's the mph between say 83 and 90 that are really hard to get.  And Cheesy my school has 1200.  Big enough school just little or no interest in baseball.  And a state tournament without a guy over 85?  That is really hard to imagine.  In illinois (unless the system has changed) eight teams would go 'downstate'.  I wonder if there was ever a year without a guy over 85.  My alma mater and the first school I coached at has three at 87 plus and two of those in the 90's.  They pretty routinely have at least one guy in the 90's since about 1976.  And many years of multiple 90mph guys.  It would be facinating to know the velocity of every single D1 pitcher.

I watched two of the games on one of the off-the-wall CBS stations. Both were Patriot league, I believe. Also, earlier in the year, I watched the Jackson State vs. Grambling game on MLB and was amazed that, of the five pitchers in that game, they broke 80 about five times total between them. Of course, that isn't D1, but still...I imagine there are a lot of HS kids out there throwing low-to-mid eighties that just don't do anything to get exposure and maybe I'm just seeing some good pitchers who happen to throw lower velocity and did a good job of promoting themselves to smaller schools.

I've added a link to the report from this year's Colorado All-State PBR showcase. This event attracted, from my review of the list, the vast majority of the best 2016 and later pitchers in the state. It doesn't include many 2015s and I do know of five 2015s throwing in the nineties. However, notice that only two touch 90 (and barely, at that) and few hit 85+.

http://www.prepbaseballreport....ts-Posted-1825304769

The school I am at has just at around 650 students meaning lots more 2/3
sport athletes and we don't get a lot of sick nasty athletes out for
baseball and rarely have much on the bench. Historically our head coach
has done rather well. We are trying to change the culture a little and get
more kids involved.

Here's another example from a PBR scouting report from a game this weekend concerning the #17 rated 2016 pitcher in the state:

 

Ranked No. 49 in the 2016 class. 5-foot-9, 170 pound RHP has a bull-dog attitude
on mound and carries himself with confidence and swagger. Does a good job
holding runners on. Fastball was consistently 80-82 but we have had him 83-84
last fall. Has a nasty change-up coming in at 73 with sink. CB was 63 mph from
11/5 angle. Throws a slider at 67 mph. Delivery is max effort and deceiving from
a short 10/5 arm slot. Was 1.22 from home to first with runners on base.

I've found numerous examples (and I'll make this the last), but here is the scouting report from last week on a 2016 RHP already commited to Army:

 

Committed to West Point and currently ranked No. 59 in the 2016 class. 6-foot-1,
180-pounds, Fastball sat 83-84 MPH in the zone with good run. Breaking ball has
tight break, 78 MPH. Changeup sat 76-77 MPH. Pitched 3 very effective innings in
relief

Where do you get the scouting report from?  Who makes them public?  Scouts have been at our games...would be interested to see what they are writing.

In these cases, from PBR's scouts. You have to pay extra for access to the reports ($10/mo, but cheaper by the year). They provide a good service (think of them as PG-lite, though bigger here in Colorado than PG), so I won't begrudge them the ability to make a little money off the reports.