Pitcher progression

@Northeastmom posted:

Interesting, thanks. Maybe a dumb question but is efficient delivery considered good? Or would a college coach rather have room to improve a pitcher? Just curious to understand.

Efficiency is not just good. It’s very good. Assuming we are defining efficiency the same way. I would define it as solid mechanics, with little to no wasted motion, no negative movements, and the ability to command the baseball. That is what all college coaches want. They would much rather recruit a pitcher that already has those traits than bring in someone they hope to teach them to.

@adbono posted:

Efficiency is not just good. It’s very good. Assuming we are defining efficiency the same way. I would define it as solid mechanics, with little to no wasted motion, no negative movements, and the ability to command the baseball. That is what all college coaches want. They would much rather recruit a pitcher that already has those traits than bring in someone they hope to teach them to.

Thanks this is helpful.

Unfortunately, I believe most, but not all, college coaches will take the kid that throws hard, believing they can teach him to throw strikes rather than take the strike thrower and help them develop the velo over time.

@CADad949 posted:

Unfortunately, I believe most, but not all, college coaches will take the kid that throws hard, believing they can teach him to throw strikes rather than take the strike thrower and help them develop the velo over time.

College coaches recruit all types of pitchers for their program. This might be an exception for the top 25 to 50 programs where usually top arms can hit triple digits.  And of course throwing heat from the left side is a bonus. You also have to have at least 2 or 3 more offerings to be successful. And be smart as well as athletic.

It's not just about the FB. Not just about how you perform but how you fit into the teams philosophy. You may not realize that while you are being recruited.

You do not have to throw hard to be a successful D1 college pitcher. One of my son's favorite guys while at FAU was a 6'5" lefty, now a 5yr grad who was in the low 80s as a frosh. I don't think he throws past 85 but with his devastating CB, deceptive slot he is a winner. He has won awards for his academic as well as athletic achievements. Hunter Cooley is his name. Has beaten the best of them in and out of conference.

As some of you know son is an assistant pitching coach at a P5. It takes a LOT of work to bring out a young pitchers potential.  Hours and hours. Some coaches are better at it than others and some players are better at embracing their role than others. You want your son to be a winner and have success both on the field and in the classroom.

@TPM posted:

College coaches recruit all types of pitchers for their program. This might be an exception for the top 25 to 50 programs where usually top arms can hit triple digits.  And of course throwing heat from the left side is a bonus. You also have to have at least 2 or 3 more offerings to be successful. And be smart as well as athletic.

It's not just about the FB. Not just about how you perform but how you fit into the teams philosophy. You may not realize that while you are being recruited.

You do not have to throw hard to be a successful D1 college pitcher. One of my son's favorite guys while at FAU was a 6'5" lefty, now a 5yr grad who was in the low 80s as a frosh. I don't think he throws past 85 but with his devastating CB, deceptive slot he is a winner. He has won awards for his academic as well as athletic achievements. Hunter Cooley is his name. Has beaten the best of them in and out of conference.

As some of you know son is an assistant pitching coach at a P5. It takes a LOT of work to bring out a young pitchers potential.  Hours and hours. Some coaches are better at it than others and some players are better at embracing their role than others. You want your son to be a winner and have success both on the field and in the classroom.

You bring up some great points. My son is hs senior committed to a mid major. He’s 86-87 and fortunately, several of the points you made came to play in he recruitment.

I made the original comment because he was told that by many d1 coaches during the process. He be going into college at 17 so he’s got a lot of work ahead of him. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience.

Dead on TPM.  I have said that some SEC schools told youngest son he was big enough or had enough velocity.  He fell into the right time, right place with UT (I give God credit).  He found a PC that loved lefties and wants velocity but also wants pitchability.  That is what gets son on the mound and has given him success.  He can throw 94 but it gets really flat and straight after 90 so coach says we want 86-89 with movement on everything.  Only throws fastball when he has to and normally 2 seam rather than 4 seam and lives off curve, slider, and changeup.  He can throw all for strikes in any count.  I've said I'm not sure if he gets recruited if at UT if he is on the market now with their success but he is still effective so who knows.  You have to do you and find that place that loves you.  Just like in life.  Do you and find the person who loves you.  (Taught that to our youth this past Wednesday night).  If you have to change you too much for them to love you it will probably not work out in the long run in baseball or life.

@CADad949

There are a lot of people in all levels of college sports to help your son become a stud, including him!

@PitchingFan

Looking forward to that Gators/Vols match up!!!!

Your son is very fortunate to work under Anderson.

@PitchingFan posted:

Dead on TPM.  I have said that some SEC schools told youngest son he was big enough or had enough velocity.  He fell into the right time, right place with UT (I give God credit).  He found a PC that loved lefties and wants velocity but also wants pitchability.  That is what gets son on the mound and has given him success.  He can throw 94 but it gets really flat and straight after 90 so coach says we want 86-89 with movement on everything.  Only throws fastball when he has to and normally 2 seam rather than 4 seam and lives off curve, slider, and changeup.  He can throw all for strikes in any count.  I've said I'm not sure if he gets recruited if at UT if he is on the market now with their success but he is still effective so who knows.  You have to do you and find that place that loves you.  Just like in life.  Do you and find the person who loves you.  (Taught that to our youth this past Wednesday night).  If you have to change you too much for them to love you it will probably not work out in the long run in baseball or life.

Great advice, and I’m about to ask in a new thread how a player knows a program loves him.

@Northeastmom posted:

Great advice, and I’m about to ask in a new thread how a player knows a program loves him.

They offer him a scholarship!

Time and money.  Same as life.  Want to know what is important to somebody look at their checkbook and their calendar.   When they show up at your games and they give you money out of their account.   Remember academic money cost them nothing.  

I had a gentleman that I am friends with that his grandson committed to a power five his freshman year as a preferred walk on. He showed up at campus this year and they acted like they didn’t know him. He ended up transferring to a mid major because the power  five brought in two portal guys and the commit has never played anything but catcher.   The P5 had nothing invested in him.

I agree with PitchingFan on time and money.  Both are pretty easy to quantify which make for an easy scale.  I would simply add a little more context that I took from my son's process that might be helpful.  

Who is spending their time?  Recruiting coordinators are certainly expected to spend their time on the recruiting trail.  Pitching coaches as well. If the head coach shows up, that is likely "love."

Where are they spending their time? The big PBR and PG tournaments are great, and an important part of the recruiting process.  Schools are attending those for a bunch of players, not just one player.  But, if they follow up and then show up at perhaps a random tournament/game that their school doesn't typically recruit from?  They are likely attending for just for one player, and that is likely "love."

As for money, beyond the size of the offer (and so many ways to think about that) is there no time limit on it? That is likely "love."

Does the offer increase as they get to see and know the player more? Again, likely "love."

@PitchingFan posted:

Time and money.  Same as life.  Want to know what is important to somebody look at their checkbook and their calendar.   When they show up at your games and they give you money out of their account.   Remember academic money cost them nothing.  

I had a gentleman that I am friends with that his grandson committed to a power five his freshman year as a preferred walk on. He showed up at campus this year and they acted like they didn’t know him. He ended up transferring to a mid major because the power  five brought in two portal guys and the commit has never played anything but catcher.   The P5 had nothing invested in him.

This is also spot on. As many posts in this thread are. Walk ons have been treated as you described since the beginning of time. The word “ preferred” placed in front often means nothing. The lure of being part of a sports team is being used as a means to generate tuition revenue for the schools, now more than ever. It’s almost always a mistake to turn down athletic scholarship money at a school to take a walk on offer at a perceived better program. The market usually will tell a player where they belong - be it D1, D2, D3, or NAIA. If you don’t like what the market is telling you coming out of HS, go JuCo and try to raise your stock value.

@adbono posted:

The market usually will tell a player where they belong - be it D1, D2, D3, or NAIA. If you don’t like what the market is telling you coming out of HS, go JuCo and try to raise your stock value.

This^^^

And market will tell you where they belong coming out of JuCo as well. Got to love the grind to do two years of JuCo...

@JucoDad posted:

This^^^

And market will tell you where they belong coming out of JuCo as well. Got to love the grind to do two years of JuCo...

The JuCo grind will do more good for HS grads than being buried at the end of the bench for 2 years at a 4 year school. In so many ways. The harsh reality is that hardly any freshmen are emotionally ready for the demands of D1, D2, and NAIA programs. D3 is the exception as it’s way more player friendly. In warm weather states, where JuCo baseball is really good, it boggles my mind that it’s still looked at as a last resort by the uneducated masses. On many occasions at HS games I have had HS coaches (of not great teams) try to promote their senior backup players as JuCo prospects. When this occurs it’s inevitable after watching a few innings that I recognize that the starters ahead of these guys aren’t even good enough to play for us. I know it varies by location but if you live in Texas, Florida, California, Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arizona and aren’t looking at JuCo options you are making a mistake.

@adbono posted:

The JuCo grind will do more good for HS grads than being buried at the end of the bench for 2 years at a 4 year school. In so many ways. The harsh reality is that hardly any freshmen are emotionally ready for the demands of D1, D2, and NAIA programs. D3 is the exception as it’s way more player friendly. In warm weather states, where JuCo baseball is really good, it boggles my mind that it’s still looked at as a last resort by the uneducated masses. On many occasions at HS games I have had HS coaches (of not great teams) try to promote their senior backup players as JuCo prospects. When this occurs it’s inevitable after watching a few innings that I recognize that the starters ahead of these guys aren’t even good enough to play for us. I know it varies by location but if you live in Texas, Florida, California, Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arizona and aren’t looking at JuCo options you are making a mistake.

Where do you draw lines on this?  My 2025 is probably going to be a bubble D1 pitcher... but that's where he wants to be.  But he's an exceptional student and will graduate 3.9+/4.0 and SAT1500+/ACT34+.  I've started talking about the benefits of HA D3s and few better academic D2s but he wants zero part of the discussion. It's simply just not part of his or his travel teammates thought processes. Is JUCO the best route for him to meet this goal? How many students like that have you seen in JUCO?

I'm sure I'm going to get some grief for this, but if your kid is getting 1500+/34 on SAT/ACT, the class workload at a JUCO isn't likely to challenge him, and in my opinion you want to surround yourself with people that'll will either push you, or be at your level. That's probably not going to be the case, academic wise at most JUCO. Obviously there are exceptions.

Nycdad. Thats my thought also.  I think juco is probably the best way to get him into high level D1 baseball but not the right big picture course.  But boy, you only get to do this trip once.

@nycdad posted:

I'm sure I'm going to get some grief for this, but if your kid is getting 1500+/34 on SAT/ACT, the class workload at a JUCO isn't likely to challenge him, and in my opinion you want to surround yourself with people that'll will either push you, or be at your level. That's probably not going to be the case, academic wise at most JUCO. Obviously there are exceptions.

Spot on @nycdad.   

@Dadbelly2023 - Keep working him over.   Take him to some college games, so he can see for himself the various levels.  Maybe the light bulb comes on that he is different from his travel teammates, and that is a good thing.  It  didn't take long for my son's light bulb to come on as he saw his travel teammates rush into committing.  My son was 2nd to last on his travel team to finally commit as they all went D1. Many didn't make it past their sophomore years at D1 P5s.  My son played all 4 years at a D1HA (mid-major), and the guy that was recruited after him had a great D1 at a mid-major career and got drafted.

They all go through a series of realizations and epiphanies.  Once your son realizes college baseball at any level is a great opportunity then you know he gets it.  They understand that they don't know everything and that Mom & Dad (may be uncool) but know a lot more about this stuff than previously thought possible.   Hang in there. Good luck!

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

Where do you draw lines on this?  My 2025 is probably going to be a bubble D1 pitcher... but that's where he wants to be.  But he's an exceptional student and will graduate 3.9+/4.0 and SAT1500+/ACT34+.  I've started talking about the benefits of HA D3s and few better academic D2s but he wants zero part of the discussion. It's simply just not part of his or his travel teammates thought processes. Is JUCO the best route for him to meet this goal? How many students like that have you seen in JUCO?

  Okay, fair point. The JuCo route is rarely the best for HA students. There are some exceptions.
  However, I would contend that the biggest problem in the situation you described is the thinking of your son and his travel ball teammates. Without seeing them, I can say they are not realistic. After having watched them I would probably say that some are delusional. As a parent you walk a fine line between balancing what is real and supporting your son’s dreams. Unfortunately I feel that way too many parents fall off the balance beam on the wrong side of it. Way to many HS age travel ball players think (for whatever reason) that they are D1 talent and most of them are wrong.

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

Where do you draw lines on this?  My 2025 is probably going to be a bubble D1 pitcher... but that's where he wants to be.  But he's an exceptional student and will graduate 3.9+/4.0 and SAT1500+/ACT34+.  I've started talking about the benefits of HA D3s and few better academic D2s but he wants zero part of the discussion. It's simply just not part of his or his travel teammates thought processes. Is JUCO the best route for him to meet this goal? How many students like that have you seen in JUCO?

Many good recommendations so far which I will add a little to here.  Have him take a look at some of the recruiting over at Perfect Game's website for some D1 schools that he would be interested in.  Can he point out a number of pitchers from prior recruiting classes that have a similar profile to him?  How are those schools' 2025 commitments looking like so far (many of the stronger schools likely close to done)?  This summer will be in focus for the remainder of D1 schools to fill out the vast majority of their recruiting, with pitchers typically taking priority.  HA D3 would typically occur after that, but there is always some overlap.  He will want to start getting his name/stats/academics out to D1 schools if that is his goal, and if there is some/no response (through his club/HS coaches) then that would be telling.

I agree with others that this doesn't sound like a JUCO fit.

@25Dad posted:

Many good recommendations so far which I will add a little to here.  Have him take a look at some of the recruiting over at Perfect Game's website for some D1 schools that he would be interested in.  Can he point out a number of pitchers from prior recruiting classes that have a similar profile to him?  How are those schools' 2025 commitments looking like so far (many of the stronger schools likely close to done)?  This summer will be in focus for the remainder of D1 schools to fill out the vast majority of their recruiting, with pitchers typically taking priority.  HA D3 would typically occur after that, but there is always some overlap.  He will want to start getting his name/stats/academics out to D1 schools if that is his goal, and if there is some/no response (through his club/HS coaches) then that would be telling.

I agree with others that this doesn't sound like a JUCO fit.

Not sure how many top d1’s are close to done with 2025’s. My son is looking at some pretty high d1’s that just wrapped up their 2024’s this fall. This summer will be their big summer for signing 2025’s, but they’ll likely take some after 9/1 too. I’m talking top 50 schools.

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

Where do you draw lines on this?  My 2025 is probably going to be a bubble D1 pitcher... but that's where he wants to be.  But he's an exceptional student and will graduate 3.9+/4.0 and SAT1500+/ACT34+.  I've started talking about the benefits of HA D3s and few better academic D2s but he wants zero part of the discussion. It's simply just not part of his or his travel teammates thought processes. Is JUCO the best route for him to meet this goal? How many students like that have you seen in JUCO?

Don’t sacrifice the education of a top student. He can pitch for a ranked HA D3. With the right velocity he can get on a quality summer team with D1 players. If he dominates D3 he can always transfer up.

There were some HA students in JuCo - they were the ones tutoring the rest of the team...

Kidding aside, the best advise I can give is to leverage baseball to get the best education possible. If it's all in on baseball, getting a transferable associates at a JuCo while clarifying next level fit makes a lot of financial sense.  After a couple years of JuCo the baseball ceiling becomes pretty clear for most all ballplayers.  

According to a conversation that I have had with a mid D1 coach, JUCO is a great alternative for freshman athletes that need improvement on academics while needing improvement on their game.

I know from my own son that playing baseball and attending other sports at the school had to be a huge part of his college experience. I understand how @Dadbelly2023 son feels.  It's also dependent on the individuals career goals.

Also this discussion included how the D1 portal has changed recruiting. I see guys who began mid D1 now stars at big programs, or in reverse P5 D1 guys now at mid D1 programs who more than likely will play a lot more than at their first stop. I also am seeing many mid D1 players getting pre draft attention. They chose inexpensive state schools and played for 4, 5 years.

It's like a mixed bag out there but the player needs to find a starting point to begin the proper search.

2025s interested in D1 need to step up their recruiting NOW and be ready for this summer and fall. D2 is a great alternative, but many are very expensive.

If one has excellent grades, I agree JUCO more than likely not a good fit.

To my knowledge, D1 coaches in general do not recruit D3 transfers.

Thanks to those who reached out!

@Northeastmom posted:

I could use some extra advice for my son from the experienced, mid to high d1 parents or recruiters. If someone fits this and has a few minutes for advice, would you shoot me a pm? Thanks.

Ok send pm.