Evaluating private hitting coaches and methods

Why is he seeing a hitting coach so often? I’ve never understood the need for parents to spend money on hitting lessons when the kid is performing well. If the kid is in a slump you may want to have someone knowledgeable look at their swing and give them an opinion, but there really are only four things that affect a swing: swinging too soon, swinging too late, swinging too high and swinging too low. People make all kinds of money pretending to know some kind of magic formula for hitting, truth is most of it is innate. Players who can see the ball well, time it up and get their bat on plane with the baseball have success. Now, I know people who have paid tons of money over their kids careers are going to tell me that is a simplistic approach...and I would agree. But keeping a swing simple and natural is one of the key components to having a good swing.

I guess I just don't see any need for a 7th grader to have a full time hitting coach.  If he's hitting well, he's hitting well, and in most cases is only seeing pitching from kids his age or maybe a year older.  Let him hit...until he's not hitting anymore....whether it's because he makes a change on his own, or he gets to HS and is facing guys potentially 3+ years older than him and needs to adjust to that level of pitching.  What can a hitting coach tell you today that is different than what he told you last week or 3 weeks ago if your son is hitting well in game situations?   

My son was very good hitter from the time he started playing travel at 10 years old.  He had a very good coach at 12U that was a former MLB pitcher.  He taught lessons part time at a facility owned by a former pro outfielder who also gave hitting lessons.   We went to the hitting guy twice, once at 13U and once his freshman year....both times just a single one-hour session.   Son had gotten into a funk and I could tell watching him that he was just thoroughly confused at the plate....and I had no idea how to fix it.   Both times we went to the guy, he corrected a couple things he saw and things were back to normal. 

Multisportdad, welcome to the site.  Good (and difficult) question to jump in with.  This topic can be quite controversial and one to which you will get a very wide array of opinions and points of view.

There are more than one hitting philosophies that can work.  There are some things with hitting mechanics that are generally considered a constant and some that are optional, depending on style, preference, natural tendancies, etc.  Also, there are teaches that may be appropriate for one age/performance level that may not apply as well to another.  There is even quite a bit of conflict on how early and how often a hitter should get instruction, as you will quickly see here.  

As example, I somewhat agree with the other posters that you don't need to go overboard at an early age.  I also like to keep natural elements in the swing, as 2022OFdad suggests.  But, at the same time, many kids' "natural swing" need adjustments in order to be able to perform efficiently against better pitching at higher levels.  I have had countless kids come through our HS program who had swings that could kill it at sub-varsity level but would be exposed against better V pitching.  Also, by the time the player gets to our HS program, if his swing is too far off, he has a very difficult uphill battle to face.  So, some earlier evaluation and any necessary work and adjustments can be quite important.

And, regarding frequency, I disagree with others here that you only need to go when you are struggling.  Almost every hitter I have ever seen and/or worked with has some area that is chronically deficient and requires more than just being pointed out and corrected on the spot.  Most young players are not disciplined enough to then go home and work repetitively enough to make the adjustment permanent.  Somewhat regular work and monitoring are necessary.  Also, a hitter typically advances through stages.  If he has someone who is monitoring and helping him work through levels of advancement, he will likely progress more quickly.  I generally like a balance of periodic instruction combined with good notes and homework.  

Regarding your question #2, I do agree with 2022 that the best teach, particularly with young players, focuses on being on time and on plane.  That is generally taught by both old-schoolers and new age guys (except those particularly promoting loft).

Regarding your question #1, I would be quite surprised if a 2024 has outgrown the instruction of a well respected coach with the qualifications you describe.  He may not be using all the available measuring technology, etc., but he is likely putting your son on a good path.  And, the fact that they connect is valuable.  My suggestion would be - as your son sees other teaches and he begins to question, he should just ask the current instructor.  His answers will tell you and your son what you need to know, one way or the other.  

To clarify-  he only does lessons in the spring and early summer

Fall is football and winter is basketball!

Cabbagedad, any hitting coach teaching “loft” ie launch angle necessary to produce HRs to a pre-high school player needs to have their heads examined. That approach requires a physically mature player with an already fundamentally sound swing. Loft approach it situational, depending on the pitch and it’s plane on approach to the plate. Having a loft launch angle on a a high fastball is going to result in a lot of pop flies and strike outs. Even when the pitch is the right one for that approach, many HS aged players are simply not strong enough to generate anything more than a fly-ball for an out.

Cabbagedad has mentioned a lot of valuable points.  I will give a little different perspective than what 2022 and Buckeye has mentioned above.  My son started WEEKLY hitting lessons from about 9 years old until he left for college at 18.  It started out as a means to keep him from being underproductive compared to others on his travel team.  During his 3 years in D1 in the offseason or before summer league began he still worked out with the same hitting instructor.  He is currently in the minors (fingers crossed for a 2019 call-up) and when he comes to visit us he spends a few lessons with the instructor.  Yes we've spent much money on these lessons.  It's easy to change your swing/approach slightly which can produce decreased results.  Weekly lessons kept him focused on the proper mechanics and plan.  I've mentioned previously in other posts but I firmly believe that the athlete must become a student of the game.  To understand it better than anyone else at that level, to have a plan each time you step to the plate.  When my son was sore from a previous game or workout, some lessons were spent being a student, without a single ball being hit.  I've said a few times (son probably disagrees) that he is a good athlete, not a great one.  What makes him more successful  than others (regarding hitting) is his athletic abilities PLUS his understanding of the game.  They go hand in hand, and if both can be applied at the correct situation good results will be seen.  Try to find an instructor who does both.  For what it's worth, throughout college and the minors (so far), not one hitting coach has attempted to change or adjust his swing.  Situational suggestions are always given (since being a student of the game there is always a need to learn more).  Unofficial word is that GM told his coaches to let him do what he's been doing and not to change mechanics.  He is fortunate to be where he is at, through hard work, proper instructions, and talent.  In the end, if financially you can afford it and your son buys into the program, this is just an example of how extended hitting lessons can bring desirable results.  Good luck and enjoy these times.

Trust In Him, I guess the question is “would he have been the same hitter without the constant coaching?” If nobody changed his swing, was there a need to pay for those lessons or were you simply paying for BP? I guess it depends on perspective. I suspect the repetition was the valuable aspect of those “lessons” and not any technical instruction - because your son apparently has an innate ability to hit the baseball.

Like Cabbage said, and Trust In Him has illustrated, everything is different for every player. 

You shouldn’t nurse maid a hitter through his journey. You want the hitter to learn and understand hitting. You want him to get to a point where even if he’s hitting well he can feel something isn’t right with his swing. If a kid understands his swing he can come to you or a coach and ask you to watch a specific body part of his swing. He can tell you what he believes is occurring rather than what should. 

Why be aware of technique problems when hitting well? Maybe that line drive single should have been hit up the gap or over the fence. 

2022OFDad posted:

Cabbagedad, any hitting coach teaching “loft” ie launch angle necessary to produce HRs to a pre-high school player needs to have their heads examined. That approach requires a physically mature player with an already fundamentally sound swing.

Weirdly twisted logic here.  A sound swing requires a 'loft' launch angle.  The pitch comes in at approx 6-10 deg, so just hitting it 'square requires a 6-10 deg loft.   Anyone that hits the ball at zero angle - flat- has a max 50 foot potential distance.

You don't need to be physically mature to learn what is a simple technique.

Multisportdad posted:

2) Is there a newer method- whether technology based or not,  that seems to be giving better results than a traditional method.

When I started out with the first of my many kids, I paid for lessons from pros, and HOF players, and others.  Here is what I learned.

Most instructors use cues like 'hands to the ball', 'swing down', 'line up your door knocking knuckles', etc.  No MLB hitter swings like this in a game - even though most think they do, and will instruct others like this.  If you run across one of those, run.

If they are using mostly words that you don't understand, then they have no idea what they are talking about.  Also, if you don't know, then how would your kid ever know.

If they are not measuring your kid's results, then run.  Your kid should be gearing toward higher bat speed, exit speed, and a target launch angle range.  Are they using a device to measure this? If not, run.  (Of course, you can use total distance as a measuring tool/device as well)

If they just talk about your feelings or just tell you stories about how great they were, run.

2022OFDad posted:

Trust In Him, I guess the question is “would he have been the same hitter without the constant coaching?” If nobody changed his swing, was there a need to pay for those lessons or were you simply paying for BP? I guess it depends on perspective. I suspect the repetition was the valuable aspect of those “lessons” and not any technical instruction - because your son apparently has an innate ability to hit the baseball.

Like Cabbage said, and Trust In Him has illustrated, everything is different for every player. 

IMO he would not be as successful of a hitter without the constant coaching through high school. The lessons are what gave him the swing that works for HIM.  His swing is a little unorthodox but it works for him, I would never teach a kid to imitate it. His hitting coach's initial approach was to start off working with his '"normal" swing tendencies and try to make adjustments to produce the correct swing path, follow through, weight transfer, etc.  Some parents may feel if they pay for 30 minutes of BP, the kid better be swinging those 30 mins with x# of balls.  My son's lesson was probably 15 mins of maybe 30-40 balls max (excluding soft-toss warmups), rest of time learning strategy, reading off speed, situational hitting, and such.  He also would not have the same results with a different instructor.  We went through 3 others before finding his current one.  Yes, son is a "freak", but a "good freak".

Thanks for the input , especially  Cabbagedad

One thing that might have been missed by a couple of you in the original post is simply this:  I'm not a baseball guy, and I don't know squat about swinging a bat. 

From reading this board, most of your sons have taken years of lessons-  with their dads in their backyards.  This is not an option for us.  So I pay a guy in the spring and early summer.

So given that my son is going to take lessons,  I would love a little more insight how to manage the "experts" we bring into our kids lives.  What should he be learning in the upcoming year or two?  What kind of things does he need to ignore (like launch angle from 2022OFDAD) no matter how much his buddies talk it up.

Multisportdad posted:

Not ever having been a baseball guy,  I need a little guidance.

I have a 2024 who has been taking batting lessons from the same coach for a couple years.  Coach is a great guy who connects with my son.  My son is a very solid hitter who takes lessons vary seriously. 

The coaches has the pedigree and is well respected.  His dad had a cup of coffee in the MLB.   I don't think Coach follows the new trends, or does a lot of research into new methods; but teaches what he knows (which seems considerable).    This is in contrast to many coaches in town who introduce all sorts of stuff to make the hitter "less comfortable"and or claim their methods are cutting edge.

Two questions?

1) How can you tell how if a kid is beginning to exceed the ability of a coach to help him?

2) Is there a newer method- whether technology based or not,  that seems to be giving better results than a traditional method.

1. The law of diminishing returns. You could always ask around for another instructor who may have good results with someone else you know. Get a second opinion so to speak.

2. There is nothing new under the sun. You get younger guys and newer "teachers" skanking drills from other systems and naming them something else or coming up with fancy terms for things that were done in the past. What I like about new technology and the data is the ability for players to see in their numbers how they are improving when video may provide such minor change they may not see it or get excited about it. Quite a few instructors probably need the technology just to teach stuff, too.

disclaimer: I personally only work with HS and college players.

SultanofSwat posted:

2022OFDad posted:

Cabbagedad, any hitting coach teaching “loft” ie launch angle necessary to produce HRs to a pre-high school player needs to have their heads examined. That approach requires a physically mature player with an already fundamentally sound swing.

Weirdly twisted logic here.  A sound swing requires a 'loft' launch angle.  The pitch comes in at approx 6-10 deg, so just hitting it 'square requires a 6-10 deg loft.   Anyone that hits the ball at zero angle - flat- has a max 50 foot potential distance.

You don't need to be physically mature to learn what is a simple technique.

 

You are right, you can learn the technique, but applying it with successful results is a whole other story. Most kids I see who are trying to employ this approach with an “exaggerated “ launch angle are not successful in the sense that the plate appearance is not benefiting the team in moving base runners around the bases. 

I think most high school coaches would rather see players with a line drive swing plane.

2022OFDad posted

I think most high school coaches would rather see players with a line drive swing plane.

I want you to do an experiment at your next game or practice.  On one of these perfect line drive swings, I want you to notice how high the ball was.  Did it go over the pitchers head?  Was it over the L screen? Was it higher than 6 feet?  If so, that is 6-10 deg launch angle.

And that is a natural swing, not an exaggerated loft swing or these crazy launch angles some guys are trying to teach. When I say “launch angle” or “loft” I am referring to a swing path that is intended to generate a deep, high fly ball, not a line-drive swing plane.

You are playing semantics.

Most high school players should be surprised when they hit a home run. If they aren’t, then they are probably physically mature or pro prospects.

Multisport, great question.  Don't be surprised that many of us who grew up around baseball wonder the same thing.  I'll tell you what I did.  I looked around and asked around, which hitting coach in the area is the best?  This is an impossible question to answer.  But which hitting coach is a magnet for the best HS players, college committed players, MiLB players who come back in the off season?  Not what organization, but what coach/instructor?  This you can find out.

Also, I agree with Cabbage and Trust 100%.  My son started with his coach when he was 13 (he's a senior in HS now).  Weekly hitting lessons in winter and spring (football in the fall).  The emphasis was always on what it takes to hit great pitching - as Cabbage said, most kids can hit poor or average pitching so "hitting well" may mean nothing at all to his development.  It takes time to develop great mechanics and IMO you want great mechanics when you pick up a BBCOR bat on a big field, otherwise you'll find the bench and have an uphill battle getting playing time.

2022OFDad posted:

And that is a natural swing, not an exaggerated loft swing or these crazy launch angles some guys are trying to teach. When I say “launch angle” or “loft” I am referring to a swing path that is intended to generate a deep, high fly ball, not a line-drive swing plane.

You are playing semantics.

Most high school players should be surprised when they hit a home run. If they aren’t, then they are probably physically mature or pro prospects.

A pitch coming down around 6-10 degree angle and swinging in the exact opposite, say a 13 degree attack angle is within reason.

"But which hitting coach is a magnet for the best HS players, college committed players, MiLB players who come back in the off season?  Not what organization, but what coach/instructor?  This you can find out."

This is exactly what we did. Found a coach/instructor at the local JC. He taught in a way that kids could take what they were taught and apply it. My son used what he learned from this coach and applied it in college. His results where superior.

Eric Byrnes recommended a hitting coach

Multisportdad posted:

To clarify-  he only does lessons in the spring and early summer

Fall is football and winter is basketball!

 

I guess I'd ask when are you playing baseball there. Here we play spring/summer. Lessons winter/later winter so the player is locked in come the season.

The best instructor the kid had had a gift for seeing what was happening in the swing real time. It should be obvious how important this is to a hitting instructor yet I can't tell you how bad at it a lot of them are (along with every Tom, Dick, and Harry who offered advice). I had a high-speed camera during the kid's pre and HS years.  I wish I had a dollar for every time someone would comment about the kid's swing and they were just plain wrong. The last two years of TB his coach was a top level hitting instructor. I know this because he told everyone who would listen. Anyway, the kid would have a bad game and tell me "the coach says I'm doing x". We'd look at film and he was just wrong. 

The other thing that set him apart was after a while the lessons became as much about the approach/mental side of hitting as the physical.

2022OFDad posted:

And that is a natural swing, not an exaggerated loft swing or these crazy launch angles some guys are trying to teach. When I say “launch angle” or “loft” I am referring to a swing path that is intended to generate a deep, high fly ball, not a line-drive swing plane.

You are playing semantics.

Most high school players should be surprised when they hit a home run. If they aren’t, then they are probably physically mature or pro prospects.

If we are going to start talking about HS kids, kids looking at college or the draft I think you'll need to start looking at the player, as in body type etc. If a kid is athletic and has speed but maybe not raw power then a lower launch angle will work. If more raw power but not the speed/athleticism he is going to want a higher launch angle. With the game as it is today with the speed on defense, the shift, and pitchers throwing 95+ a big slow kid hitting even line drives is not of value.  I know this because the last for years the kid has worked out in front of an MLB scout who is about as far up the latter you can get. He wanted to draft the kid but he made it clear he needed to show him HR power on a consistent bases.  He explained it matter of fact. "What good does it do us to have you hitting singles or doubles. How are we going to get you home? You're no threat to steal, most likely couldn't score from second on a single". For the record the kid has 6.9-7.1 60 speed.

So, there is a reason some of these guys are teaching these "crazy launch angles".

my Son also has played for 2 MLB scouts the past 2 years and both of them say launch angle is BS for high school ball players.

uncoach posted:

2022OFDad posted:

And that is a natural swing, not an exaggerated loft swing or these crazy launch angles some guys are trying to teach. When I say “launch angle” or “loft” I am referring to a swing path that is intended to generate a deep, high fly ball, not a line-drive swing plane.

You are playing semantics.

Most high school players should be surprised when they hit a home run. If they aren’t, then they are probably physically mature or pro prospects.

A pitch coming down around 6-10 degree angle and swinging in the exact opposite, say a 13 degree attack angle is within reason.

This is precision without accuracy.  Seriously, even with a giant protractor there's no way a player or a coach can discern an angle within this tolerance.  If a coach claimed he can do this, it's best to run away.

2022OFDad posted:

my Son also has played for 2 MLB scouts the past 2 years and both of them say launch angle is BS for high school ball players.

For most yes. But "HS" covers a largish span of time  My point was that some of those players are going to be looking past HS and for them it starts to matter. But yes, at any level if the player can't hit the ball out with some consistency then launch angle is irrelevant. 

Smitty28 posted:

uncoach posted:

2022OFDad posted:

And that is a natural swing, not an exaggerated loft swing or these crazy launch angles some guys are trying to teach. When I say “launch angle” or “loft” I am referring to a swing path that is intended to generate a deep, high fly ball, not a line-drive swing plane.

You are playing semantics.

Most high school players should be surprised when they hit a home run. If they aren’t, then they are probably physically mature or pro prospects.

A pitch coming down around 6-10 degree angle and swinging in the exact opposite, say a 13 degree attack angle is within reason.

This is precision without accuracy.  Seriously, even with a giant protractor there's no way a player or a coach can discern an angle within this tolerance.  If a coach claimed he can do this, it's best to run away.

A coach doesn't have to discern the difference. That's what gadgets like the Blast Connect and Diamond Kinetics devices discern. 

SomeBaseballDad posted:

Multisportdad posted:

To clarify-  he only does lessons in the spring and early summer

Fall is football and winter is basketball!

 

I guess I'd ask when are you playing baseball there. Here we play spring/summer. Lessons winter/later winter so the player is locked in come the season.

The best instructor the kid had had a gift for seeing what was happening in the swing real time. It should be obvious how important this is to a hitting instructor yet I can't tell you how bad at it a lot of them are (along with every Tom, Dick, and Harry who offered advice). I had a high-speed camera during the kid's pre and HS years.  I wish I had a dollar for every time someone would comment about the kid's swing and they were just plain wrong. The last two years of TB his coach was a top level hitting instructor. I know this because he told everyone who would listen. Anyway, the kid would have a bad game and tell me "the coach says I'm doing x". We'd look at film and he was just wrong. 

The other thing that set him apart was after a while the lessons became as much about the approach/mental side of hitting as the physical.

He plays middle school ball through April.  Then travel through July.   He will play in a lot at PG or Lake Point in Atlanta during middle school ball (weekday games).  Plays fall ball tournaments, but can't practice much due to football and does not take lessons then.  He plays super loose in fall ball and kills it.  I think its partly because he is in super good football shape and his body/mind are extremely connected, but part of me also feels the stress is taken out of baseball due to no lessons/few practices.  So he is relaxed.

Fortunately for us, he is a sought after kid who has a place to play any weekend.

uncoach posted:

Smitty28 posted:

uncoach posted:

2022OFDad posted:

And that is a natural swing, not an exaggerated loft swing or these crazy launch angles some guys are trying to teach. When I say “launch angle” or “loft” I am referring to a swing path that is intended to generate a deep, high fly ball, not a line-drive swing plane.

You are playing semantics.

Most high school players should be surprised when they hit a home run. If they aren’t, then they are probably physically mature or pro prospects.

A pitch coming down around 6-10 degree angle and swinging in the exact opposite, say a 13 degree attack angle is within reason.

This is precision without accuracy.  Seriously, even with a giant protractor there's no way a player or a coach can discern an angle within this tolerance.  If a coach claimed he can do this, it's best to run away.

A coach doesn't have to discern the difference. That's what gadgets like the Blast Connect and Diamond Kinetics devices discern. 

To each his own, I guess.  I wouldn't pay an instructor that couldn't tell a good swing from a bad one.

My son(s) hitting coach is a 60yo former MLB'er who is very down to earth, direct, and loves working with kids. He can be a tough dude when he needs to be, but he truly has empathy for kids having trouble hitting the ball. He has no fancy drills, but he is very good at breaking down what is off just by watching my sons hit off the tee, or in the cage. Sons says he throws the best BP, EVER.

   Coach usually can identify what is wrong in the 1st session, but it sometimes takes 3 or 4  1/2 hr. lessons to get the fix to "take". I do know players who take weekly sessions with him, all year long. I can't see how it could do anything but good, except to the bank account. I'm too cheap to go weekly.

   It's taken me years to realize what a great resource he is. There are other good teachers out there, for sure, but I appreciate how clear, jargon free, and uncomplicated his teaching is. The guy is a master.

perhaps we could solve the problems in Syria right after the hitting conversation is concluded....Bottom line I think good advise is to do some checking around. 

The hitting community gets very hung up on tiny details, they feel the need to defend their belief to the death, very often feel their is only one way (theirs) all others are terrible I could continue but it would just give me a headache. 

IMO swinging down to the ball is the one thing you honestly never want to hear. That is just not good. 

If your guy doesn't emphasis being athletic and aggressive in the swing and pitch count if discussing approach you are with the wrong guy. 

If your guy is teaching the exact same swing he taught 10 years ago probably should be concerned. 

If your guy is a teaching something entirely different then 10 years ago and has dismissed 100 plus years of hitting knowledge you should run away faster. 

If he gives you a 7' piece of PVC and tells you to practice hitting the ceiling while spinning half backwards as part of body feel type launch angle training thing...you have failed as a parent to use logic!! 

Remember much of what the new school is teaching is geared to generating numbers, the biggest number that matters is consistency to deliver the good numbers. I hear very little talk of this. You have to put the barrel on the baseball...the more often the better. 

You also understand that hitting and pitching instructors make at least part of their living teaching lessons.  To me, we are like chiropractors.  You always need to come back for adjustments.  (sorry to any chiropractors but I tell my friends who do it the same.)  Why would you teach it or fix it all in one visit when you can perfect it over time.  I think hitting lessons have to be player specific.  I know guys who can take bad hitters and make them good hitters but can't take good hitters and make them great hitters.  Most of the MLB or college great guys cannot take a bad hitter and make them good.  they are great with working with athletes but not so much with the lower level kid.  You have to find the coach that fits best with your kid and his level of play. 

My son has never had a hitting lesson from anyone other than myself, his brothers, and his coaches (which were pretty good).  He hit .500 dead on last year in HS with 7 HRs and 28 walks with 19 of those being intentional. 

 I give hitting lessons.  I am one of the guys who can help the younger players and the developing high school players.  I do a decent job of teaching mechanics.  I just don't always have the patience to deal with middle level high school players and their dads who say I've always hit this way and had success (which means batting .200 and never come close to hitting a HR on a big field) can't you just tweek it rather than me change it.  I just got to the point where I say here is what you need to do and it is up to you and your kid to fix it if you want to get better.  I find there are too many dads who were decent HS players who think the way their coach taught them back in the 80's is the way it has to be done. 

I have received many calls over the years looking for lessons. I have never charged, I am willing to help a kid who can't afford a real instructor. I have 2 guys I reference kids to who know what they are doing...bottom line is a 10 or 12 year old local athlete who wants to learn the basics of solid basic swing I am willing to donate some time to. After a few sessions of getting him to a reasonable approach I send them on their way and tell them to call if they want a tune up...hitting lessons for young kids isn't rocket science and knowing what you can productive be supportive to is important.

Keep hitting simple is a concept that seems totally lost on the modern approach. I believe it is totally underrated.

Multisportdad posted:

Not ever having been a baseball guy,  I need a little guidance.

I have a 2024 who has been taking batting lessons from the same coach for a couple years.  Coach is a great guy who connects with my son.  My son is a very solid hitter who takes lessons vary seriously. 

The coaches has the pedigree and is well respected.  His dad had a cup of coffee in the MLB.   I don't think Coach follows the new trends, or does a lot of research into new methods; but teaches what he knows (which seems considerable).    This is in contrast to many coaches in town who introduce all sorts of stuff to make the hitter "less comfortable"and or claim their methods are cutting edge.

Two questions?

1) How can you tell how if a kid is beginning to exceed the ability of a coach to help him?

2) Is there a newer method- whether technology based or not,  that seems to be giving better results than a traditional method.

 

 

 

 

 

You're not a baseball guy?  That's OK.  I thought I was a baseball guy.  Thought I understood the baseball swing, etc.  Then I learned that my thinking was more 1980 than 2013.  So, for the last 5 years, I have been getting educated. (Thank you, Internet!)  My recommendation to you, while not a baseball guy, is to get educated on this stuff.  You need to be the one to vet your son's coaches to make sure they are teaching him the right stuff.  

Here's the thing with kids, dads and coaches.  Kids don't ever want to hear that they are wrong, from their parents.  Now, you may not be saying that, and, you may be saying you're good but could be better - but, all the kid hears is "Dad says I am wrong."  So, basically, you have to pay a coach to teach your kid what you want him to learn.  But, of course, first you need to learn it, to vet the coach, etc.

The bigger thing is finding a coach who connects with your kid.  Now, the coach might be saying all the right things.  But, if the kid doesn't buy in, then it doesn't matter.  You need to find a coach who, for whatever reason, your kid will listen to him as if he was speaking gospel.

That's all hard.  Literally, it took me around 3 years to get all the pieces to align.  But, once it happened, it was magic.

To your 1st question, I would assume it's time when the kid has an issue that the coach cannot properly address.  Say, for example, you know the kid is having a problem staying back, and, he's lunging.  It's obvious.  You mention it to the coach.  But, the coach says "I think it's more a matter of how he's holding the bat."  Clearly, in this case, he's reached the point where he can't help you anymore.

To your 2nd question, it's tricky.  I know a coach who teaches NOTHING.  He has you go through a series of drills.  He says very little.  His thought is that these drills, done over and over, will teach you the swing.  I know another coach who breaks the swing down to chunks.  And, when you master each piece, then you put it all together.  And, I know another coach who just says keep swinging until you start to feel it.   

Which is best?  Maybe all?  Maybe none.  It depends on the kid.  What works for some doesn't work for all.  So, to your question, the method/technique that resonates with your son is the way you want to go.

BTW, hitting coaches are Homer Simpsons compared to pitching coaches. Those guys are nuts, for the most part! Pitching's my thing, and I don't understand what the hell they are talking about for the most part.

ILVBB posted:

"But which hitting coach is a magnet for the best HS players, college committed players, MiLB players who come back in the off season?  Not what organization, but what coach/instructor?  This you can find out."

This is exactly what we did. Found a coach/instructor at the local JC. He taught in a way that kids could take what they were taught and apply it. My son used what he learned from this coach and applied it in college. His results where superior.

Eric Byrnes recommended a hitting coach

 

 

 

Smitty28 posted:

uncoach posted:

Smitty28 posted:

uncoach posted:

2022OFDad posted:

And that is a natural swing, not an exaggerated loft swing or these crazy launch angles some guys are trying to teach. When I say “launch angle” or “loft” I am referring to a swing path that is intended to generate a deep, high fly ball, not a line-drive swing plane.

You are playing semantics.

Most high school players should be surprised when they hit a home run. If they aren’t, then they are probably physically mature or pro prospects.

A pitch coming down around 6-10 degree angle and swinging in the exact opposite, say a 13 degree attack angle is within reason.

This is precision without accuracy.  Seriously, even with a giant protractor there's no way a player or a coach can discern an angle within this tolerance.  If a coach claimed he can do this, it's best to run away.

A coach doesn't have to discern the difference. That's what gadgets like the Blast Connect and Diamond Kinetics devices discern. 

To each his own, I guess.  I wouldn't pay an instructor that couldn't tell a good swing from a bad one.

You made an ignorant comment about the different between 10 and 13 degrees. A person doesn't have to get a protractor out with modern technology available.

"This is in contrast to many coaches in town who introduce all sorts of stuff to make the hitter "less comfortable" and or claim their methods are cutting edge"

 "variability training" is cutting edge. Last September 20 MLB teams showed up for a seminar at FBR to learn about this from Randy Sullivan. The same seminar is being repeated in October at the request of several MLB teams and I believe it is almost sold out. 

And there were more strikeouts than hits in the MLB for 2018, first time in history. How’s that working for them?

uncoach posted:

Smitty28 posted:

uncoach posted:

Smitty28 posted:

uncoach posted:

2022OFDad posted:

And that is a natural swing, not an exaggerated loft swing or these crazy launch angles some guys are trying to teach. When I say “launch angle” or “loft” I am referring to a swing path that is intended to generate a deep, high fly ball, not a line-drive swing plane.

You are playing semantics.

Most high school players should be surprised when they hit a home run. If they aren’t, then they are probably physically mature or pro prospects.

A pitch coming down around 6-10 degree angle and swinging in the exact opposite, say a 13 degree attack angle is within reason.

This is precision without accuracy.  Seriously, even with a giant protractor there's no way a player or a coach can discern an angle within this tolerance.  If a coach claimed he can do this, it's best to run away.

A coach doesn't have to discern the difference. That's what gadgets like the Blast Connect and Diamond Kinetics devices discern. 

To each his own, I guess.  I wouldn't pay an instructor that couldn't tell a good swing from a bad one.

You made an ignorant comment about the different between 10 and 13 degrees. A person doesn't have to get a protractor out with modern technology available.

The protractor comment was a joke.  I thought that would be obvious.  Like I said, I wouldn't pay an instructor who couldn't tell a good swing from a bad one, and I wouldn't let the instructor hide behind technology to train a 7th grader.

Smitty28 posted:

uncoach posted:

Smitty28 posted:

uncoach posted:

Smitty28 posted:

uncoach posted:

2022OFDad posted:

And that is a natural swing, not an exaggerated loft swing or these crazy launch angles some guys are trying to teach. When I say “launch angle” or “loft” I am referring to a swing path that is intended to generate a deep, high fly ball, not a line-drive swing plane.

You are playing semantics.

Most high school players should be surprised when they hit a home run. If they aren’t, then they are probably physically mature or pro prospects.

A pitch coming down around 6-10 degree angle and swinging in the exact opposite, say a 13 degree attack angle is within reason.

This is precision without accuracy.  Seriously, even with a giant protractor there's no way a player or a coach can discern an angle within this tolerance.  If a coach claimed he can do this, it's best to run away.

A coach doesn't have to discern the difference. That's what gadgets like the Blast Connect and Diamond Kinetics devices discern. 

To each his own, I guess.  I wouldn't pay an instructor that couldn't tell a good swing from a bad one.

You made an ignorant comment about the different between 10 and 13 degrees. A person doesn't have to get a protractor out with modern technology available.

The protractor comment was a joke.  I thought that would be obvious.  Like I said, I wouldn't pay an instructor who couldn't tell a good swing from a bad one, and I wouldn't let the instructor hide behind technology to train a 7th grader.

>The best instructor the kid had had a gift for seeing what was happening in the swing real time. It should be obvious how important this is to a hitting instructor yet I can't tell you how bad at it a lot of them are (along with every Tom, Dick, and Harry who offered advice). I had a high-speed camera during the kid's pre and HS years.  I wish I had a dollar for every time someone would comment about the kid's swing and they were just plain wrong. The last two years of TB his coach was a top level hitting instructor. I know this because he told everyone who would listen. Anyway, the kid would have a bad game and tell me "the coach says I'm doing x". We'd look at film and he was just wrong.<

I can't tell you how wrong, time after time after time, people were about what they thought they were seeing. 

>and I wouldn't let the instructor hide behind technology<

Video doesn't lie.

2022OFDad posted:

And there were more strikeouts than hits in the MLB for 2018, first time in history. How’s that working for them?

So you have a better way? I mean you are implying a lot of resources that have applied to winning at the highest level are wrong?  I'm sure they'd be interested in your input.

I remember reading somewhere that two records were set during the last MLB All-Star Game. The first record was that the slowest fastball recorded was just over 93 mph. The second record was the most strikeouts in the history of the All-Star Game. 

SomeBaseballDad posted:

2022OFDad posted:

And there were more strikeouts than hits in the MLB for 2018, first time in history. How’s that working for them?

So you have a better way? I mean you are implying a lot of resources that have applied to winning at the highest level are wrong?  I'm sure they'd be interested in your input.

You said video doesn’t lie earlier. Neither do the stats. Truth is people are getting bored to death with the game in its current state. The shift, all or nothing at bats, it absolutely takes away from the game. Those folks at the highest levels have done that. Congratulations....and you don’t need to be so smug.

Uultimately, by continuing to teach the same hitting approaches at the college and gasp...high school level, we are virtually guaranteeing the continued demise of the purity of the game. 

The state of the game? I like where baseball is at and the athletes competiting today are incredible giving a little time hitting will catch up again! My son had lessons year around with little breaks through out the year it helped maintain his focus and mechanics as well as pitch recognition and velo training

Swing mechanics are important but they don't guarantee success.

Get solid mechanics but from then on there are really no magic tricks. Get strong, get batspeed and hit a lot.

2022OFDad posted:

Cabbagedad, any hitting coach teaching “loft” ie launch angle necessary to produce HRs to a pre-high school player needs to have their heads examined. That approach requires a physically mature player with an already fundamentally sound swing. Loft approach it situational, depending on the pitch and it’s plane on approach to the plate. Having a loft launch angle on a a high fastball is going to result in a lot of pop flies and strike outs. Even when the pitch is the right one for that approach, many HS aged players are simply not strong enough to generate anything more than a fly-ball for an out.

I teach all my kids a slight upswing and it works pretty well. 

However i don't teach them hitting 30 degree bombs, i basically tell them "slightly up but almost level" to make sure it is only a slight uppercut.

I want them to hit slightly rising line drives.

Scott Munroe posted:

"This is in contrast to many coaches in town who introduce all sorts of stuff to make the hitter "less comfortable" and or claim their methods are cutting edge"

 "variability training" is cutting edge. Last September 20 MLB teams showed up for a seminar at FBR to learn about this from Randy Sullivan. The same seminar is being repeated in October at the request of several MLB teams and I believe it is almost sold out. 

 

I will occasionally use that but only with advanced players. 

I get that just tee hitting won't prepare you for 95 and facing velo from a short distance can help but really if your swing sucks against front toss it won't magically self organize into a good swing if you bust him inside with a machine at 92.

There is a place and time for both.

old_school posted:

If he gives you a 7' piece of PVC and tells you to practice hitting the ceiling while spinning half backwards as part of body feel type launch angle training thing...you have failed as a parent to use logic!! 

 

I know how to "snap it" too. Sadly I can only "murderize" the ball on the tee only.

Dominik85 posted:

Scott Munroe posted:

"This is in contrast to many coaches in town who introduce all sorts of stuff to make the hitter "less comfortable" and or claim their methods are cutting edge"

 "variability training" is cutting edge. Last September 20 MLB teams showed up for a seminar at FBR to learn about this from Randy Sullivan. The same seminar is being repeated in October at the request of several MLB teams and I believe it is almost sold out. 

 

I will occasionally use that but only with advanced players. 

!!I get that just tee hitting won't prepare you for 95 and facing velo from a short distance can help but really if your swing sucks against front toss it won't magically self organize into a good swing if you bust him inside with a machine at 92.

There is a place and time for both.

Dominik85

Funny you should say that! Your thought process came up at the recent coach's convention in Dallas.  

From what little I understand about variability training is it is not intended to teach mechanics as it is the furthermost thing from mechanics. It is more about body movement.

I agree with your "magically self organize" statement and therefore, I believe,  "some" type of "guided" discovery should be in place. The days of "everyone does it this way" are about to become a thing of the past. In my opinion, once the body understands the general direction in which it needs to go to accomplish the end goal, then the Bernstein Principle can be applied.

Just attended an MLS seminar last week and variability training is on their radar also. 

For those who may not be familiar with the Bernstein Principal:

Bernstein Principle #1: “The body will organize itself in accordance with the overall goal of the activity.” ... They learn through feel and repetition, not through words.

OP

Just my opinion for what it is worth....if your son's instructor's goal is more about how your son's swing looks then how your son's body works then it may be something to look at.  For example, prior to my son becoming an FBR guy, his pitching instructors taught him the mechanics that worked for them in the bigs.....boy did my son look good when he threw!

What they did not realize is my son's body did not function the way theirs did. As a result, they made him a 72 mph guy who nobody wanted.  After 3 months at FBR my son went from 72 to 80 by allowing his body to work in a manner that was more beneficial to him. Forward 3.5 years of this same training process, my son is a HS senior now who signed an NLI for a P5 school in November and touched 92 this month. 

Moral of the story is, if an instructor is not continually learning and evolving as a trainer he may just be training his students right out of the game of baseball!  It is easier to say the student did not have "it" when they do not accomplish their dreams than it is to continually strive to learn the latest training technics that may allow a young man or women the opportunity to unlock their true potential. 

I have the utmost respect for instructors who's true intentions are to help players, but even more respect for guys like Randy Sullivan, Ron Woolforth, Eric Cressy, Kyle Body, etc, etc. who continually strive to improve their training techniques. These guys are doing something right if the MLB is coming to them....

Very easy tip.  Hit the ball over the L screen.  Most instructors teach to hit the screen.

Funny thing.   I found a coach I thought might be better than current coach.  However,  while I wield considerable influence,  I let my kid make his own decisions (between great options I’ve presented to him)

He told me flatly,   “I’m staying with (current coach),  he cares about me”

It’s hard to argue with that!  

So you believe a line drive swing should be taught until they are physically mature enough to learn to swing launch angle.  I don't understand the logic in teaching two different swings based on a fallacy that youth players aren't strong enough to hit homeruns or whatever.  Launch angle isn't about trying to hit homeruns - it's about getting the ball into the OF and use all that space to get hits.  If it happens to go out then it goes out.  No different than using a "line drive" swing. 

Baseball is proportional so those youth league hitters who aren't strong enough to learn launch angle are playing against fielders who basically have the same amount of strength and skill.  Teach launch angle from day one and it will provide the best opportunity for your son to be successful.

coach2709 posted:

So you believe a line drive swing should be taught until they are physically mature enough to learn to swing launch angle.  I don't understand the logic in teaching two different swings based on a fallacy that youth players aren't strong enough to hit homeruns or whatever.  Launch angle isn't about trying to hit homeruns - it's about getting the ball into the OF and use all that space to get hits.  If it happens to go out then it goes out.  No different than using a "line drive" swing. 

Baseball is proportional so those youth league hitters who aren't strong enough to learn launch angle are playing against fielders who basically have the same amount of strength and skill.  Teach launch angle from day one and it will provide the best opportunity for your son to be successful.

The quicker the ball gets on the ground in “all that space” in the outfield, the better. That is not best accomplished with a towering fly ball. I will do some research today to try to support this, but a line drive to the out field simply has a better chance of resulting in a positive outcome from a plate appearance than a fly ball does. It’s just my opinion, but I will try to find some data to back that up.

Well you can't really teach a "launch angle swing" because every swing has a launch angle.

It depends on what outcome you want. For a BA about 8-15 degrees LA offer the best result, for power 25-30.

Angles over 20 degrees are only useful if you can hit homers but liners from 5-20 degrees play at every exit velo.

https://www.kansascity.com/lat...rticle214401304.html 

I'm willing to bet my paycheck that a ball hit over the fence has a less chance of being caught than any ball that lands in the field whether it is linedrive or ground ball.  Swing for the fence and if you miss it is still hit with power.  Have to have launch angle. You can exaggerate it to the negative but have to have launch angle.

The point is, although more baseball are in fact leaving the yard, the number of strikeouts have also gone up commensurately. 

Another good site that supports my point is https://tht.fangraphs.com/when...data-become-reliable

PitchingFan posted:

I'm willing to bet my paycheck that a ball hit over the fence has a less chance of being caught than any ball that lands in the field whether it is linedrive or ground ball.  Swing for the fence and if you miss it is still hit with power.  Have to have launch angle. You can exaggerate it to the negative but have to have launch angle.

And my paycheck says your batting average will drop, your strikeout rate will increase, and your value to your team will become marginalized as you become a become a one-dimensional hitter.

Are we still helping the OP with how to evaluate private hitting coaches?  hehe 

Multisportdad, like I said at the beginning of the thread, ...  "This topic can be quite controversial and one to which you will get a very wide array of opinions and points of view...  There are more than one hitting philosophies that can work."

Yes, Dad....

There is room in the game for more than one type of hitter.

Son #1 is 5'9", 170lbs., fast, has a great batter's eye, and hand/eye coordination. He can, and does, hit balls out during BP, but in games his job is to hit balls hard, and get on base, where he uses his speed and savvy to get extra bases. His offensive specialty is scoring runs.

Another teammate is 6'5", 240lbs., with average speed. Has a much lower OBP and BA than my son's, but he hits XBH's. He doesn't score a lot of runs, and won't do much for you on the basepaths, but drives in runs in a hurry(on occasion).

To think that both players should use the same hitting approach strikes me as odd. 

2022OFDad posted:

PitchingFan posted:

I'm willing to bet my paycheck that a ball hit over the fence has a less chance of being caught than any ball that lands in the field whether it is linedrive or ground ball.  Swing for the fence and if you miss it is still hit with power.  Have to have launch angle. You can exaggerate it to the negative but have to have launch angle.

And my paycheck says your batting average will drop, your strikeout rate will increase, and your value to your team will become marginalized as you become a become a one-dimensional hitter.

Show me video of a great hitter that does not have launch angle.   Every great batter has a somewhat upward angle to their swing. 

2022OFDad posted:

The point is, although more baseball are in fact leaving the yard, the number of strikeouts have also gone up commensurately. 

Another good site that supports my point is https://tht.fangraphs.com/when...data-become-reliable

 

Are you suggesting people could be taking a solid premis and over doing it to point where it defeats the purpose..... hmmmm happens every day in many ways

What carries a ball out of the park is backspin.  The focus should be on creating a swing that makes the baseball consistently leave the bat with backspin.  That swing will be different for every player and the optimum angle that the ball leaves the bat will also be  different for every player.  The goal of every hitter should be to have a good bat path and keep the barrel in the hitting zone as long as possible. Ideally the plane of the swing should match the path of the incoming pitch - which would make it SLIGHTLY uphill.  Anything more than that is self-defeating as the bat gets out of the hitting zone prematurely.  Swings that are too uphill don't produce more home runs unless you are a big leaguer like  Joey Gallo (and even he has flattened his swing out somewhat). For the vast majority of amateur  ballplayers an uphill swing results in pop ups, fly outs, strike outs, topped balls, and rollover ground outs.  Some of the most accomplished hitters (and hitting instructors) I know think all this focus on launch angle & exit velocity is nonsense. Kids are working on developing swings that produce a number instead of a swing that will allow them to be successful against good pitching. 

PitchingFan posted:

2022OFDad posted:

PitchingFan posted:

I'm willing to bet my paycheck that a ball hit over the fence has a less chance of being caught than any ball that lands in the field whether it is linedrive or ground ball.  Swing for the fence and if you miss it is still hit with power.  Have to have launch angle. You can exaggerate it to the negative but have to have launch angle.

And my paycheck says your batting average will drop, your strikeout rate will increase, and your value to your team will become marginalized as you become a become a one-dimensional hitter.

Show me video of a great hitter that does not have launch angle.   Every great batter has a somewhat upward angle to their swing. 

You are being disengenuous...of course they do. We are talking about launch angle specific to lifting the baseball over the fence.

Thanks, Adbono....appreciate your view.

adbono posted:

What carries a ball out of the park is backspin.

Yes. And no.

30 deg (BALL) launch angle takes it out of the park, plus exit speed.  Backspin may keep it up for a few more feet.

However, hitters can't use 30 deg angle with their bat or they would hardly ever hit a 6-10 deg incoming pitch.  So hitters must use 10-20 deg swing, which by definition undercuts the ball (giving it the extra 10 deg of launch angle), which therefore creates backspin.

So to tie this back to instructors, find one that helps you achieve a 10-20 deg upward (BAT) attack angle, and helps improve your bat speed.  And of course they must be measuring this with a tool, not just their eyeball.  And you must measure them in the same way.

2022OFDad posted:

coach2709 posted:

So you believe a line drive swing should be taught until they are physically mature enough to learn to swing launch angle.  I don't understand the logic in teaching two different swings based on a fallacy that youth players aren't strong enough to hit homeruns or whatever.  Launch angle isn't about trying to hit homeruns - it's about getting the ball into the OF and use all that space to get hits.  If it happens to go out then it goes out.  No different than using a "line drive" swing. 

Baseball is proportional so those youth league hitters who aren't strong enough to learn launch angle are playing against fielders who basically have the same amount of strength and skill.  Teach launch angle from day one and it will provide the best opportunity for your son to be successful.

The quicker the ball gets on the ground in “all that space” in the outfield, the better. That is not best accomplished with a towering fly ball. I will do some research today to try to support this, but a line drive to the out field simply has a better chance of resulting in a positive outcome from a plate appearance than a fly ball does. It’s just my opinion, but I will try to find some data to back that up.

I tend to agree with this as well. Ideally, you want line drive HRs. There is now an emphasis on getting the ball over the fence, which is fine. What is not fine is the K rate and the amount of lazy fly balls that come with that approach. When the hitter just misses the ball it results in a 360 ft pop out, not a hard hit. 

But I'd also rather have a .300 hitter with 15 HRs than a .260 hitter with 30 HRs. Many would rather have the latter. It is a matter of preference, but FWIW I don't like the way MLB is trending. 

PABaseball posted:

I tend to agree with this as well. Ideally, you want line drive HRs. There is now an emphasis on getting the ball over the fence, which is fine. What is not fine is the K rate and the amount of lazy fly balls that come with that approach. When the hitter just misses the ball it results in a 360 ft pop out, not a hard hit. 

But I'd also rather have a .300 hitter with 15 HRs than a .260 hitter with 30 HRs. Many would rather have the latter. It is a matter of preference, but FWIW I don't like the way MLB is trending. 

The MLB SO/HR ratio is worth discussion, along with The Shift, emphasis on launch angles, and many other things in the current game. But the OP was asking about a kid who is just starting middle school, so it seems appropriate to talk about what kind of training is going to give such a kid the best shot at being an impact player on his HS team in a couple years, and the way HS baseball is played, except maybe among the very top schools in the country, is a world away from MLB baseball.

In my experience watching a good number of HS games, the fact of the matter is that the long ball is very, very rarely the deciding factor in a win.  Sac bunts,  line drives up the middle, doubles in the gap or down the line, and ground balls in the 5-6 hole are all far, far more likely to be the winning plays in a game than a HR.  Sadly, I suppose, errors, wild pitches, passed balls, blown pick-off attempts, balks, and brain farts are all also far more likely to cause a loss than giving up a bomb.

If the OP's kid is a true stud who will play higher level college and/or pro, once puberty arrives he'll know that soon enough.  In the meantime, I would focus on the kid being ready to play the HS game. That  means knowing how to bunt, how to hit behind a runner on 2b, how to execute the hit-and-run, how to run the bases, and many other things that don't involve hitting a ball over the fence.

2022OFDad posted:

coach2709 posted:

So you believe a line drive swing should be taught until they are physically mature enough to learn to swing launch angle.  I don't understand the logic in teaching two different swings based on a fallacy that youth players aren't strong enough to hit homeruns or whatever.  Launch angle isn't about trying to hit homeruns - it's about getting the ball into the OF and use all that space to get hits.  If it happens to go out then it goes out.  No different than using a "line drive" swing. 

Baseball is proportional so those youth league hitters who aren't strong enough to learn launch angle are playing against fielders who basically have the same amount of strength and skill.  Teach launch angle from day one and it will provide the best opportunity for your son to be successful.

The quicker the ball gets on the ground in “all that space” in the outfield, the better. That is not best accomplished with a towering fly ball. I will do some research today to try to support this, but a line drive to the out field simply has a better chance of resulting in a positive outcome from a plate appearance than a fly ball does. It’s just my opinion, but I will try to find some data to back that up.

Nobody advocates towering fly balls.  That is what people against launch angle use to try and discredit it.  But back to my original point - why teach one swing when / if a player gets to higher levels he will have to learn a new swing.  That is just ridiculous and a waste.  It will hold more players back than anything.  

2022OFDad posted:

PitchingFan posted:

2022OFDad posted:

PitchingFan posted:

I'm willing to bet my paycheck that a ball hit over the fence has a less chance of being caught than any ball that lands in the field whether it is linedrive or ground ball.  Swing for the fence and if you miss it is still hit with power.  Have to have launch angle. You can exaggerate it to the negative but have to have launch angle.

And my paycheck says your batting average will drop, your strikeout rate will increase, and your value to your team will become marginalized as you become a become a one-dimensional hitter.

Show me video of a great hitter that does not have launch angle.   Every great batter has a somewhat upward angle to their swing. 

You are being disengenuous...of course they do. We are talking about launch angle specific to lifting the baseball over the fence.

Thank you I reckon for saying I'm right and you're wrong.  Every good batter has a launch angle so why would you not teach a launch angle.  My son batted .500 and led his team in HR's and batting average so you can have both and good hitters do.  They attempt to drive the ball hard and deep unless the pitch dictates otherwise and cause backspin.  I don't get your logic to argue against teaching launch angle when you agree that it makes better hitters.

Well, I tried to get the thread back on the OP topic... if you can't beat 'em, join 'em 

Coach, you know I'm usually with you but disagree on this one.  IMO, there is a difference between teaching a different swing and a different swing plane.  A different swing plane can be a somewhat minor adjustment suggested to the right type of hitter with the right profile to benefit from a higher launch angle swing.  I am more in the camp of others who say it is more detrimental for most HS hitters, for many reasons.  This has been discussed at great lengths in other threads.  Most HS hitters will benefit from a swing on plane due to both timing and strength concerns as well as a host of secondary reasons including typical defensive capabilities and field conditions.  

Sultan, I'm sure I am missing something, but I don't understand your statement ...

... "hitters can't use 30 deg angle with their bat or they would hardly ever hit a 6-10 deg incoming pitch.  So hitters must use 10-20 deg swing, which by definition undercuts the ball (giving it the extra 10 deg of launch angle), which therefore creates backspin."

If the incoming pitch is at a 6-10 degree angle and the swing is 10-20 degrees, by definition, wouldn't that result more often in topspin than backspin?  I realize that where on the ball contact occurs is also a factor in this equation.  Just trying to understand the math of your statement.

Also, you said.. 

"30 deg (BALL) launch angle takes it out of the park, plus exit speed."  

Most HS hitters don't have nearly the strength/bat speed to generate a HR with a 30 degree launch angle.  It becomes a routine fly ball out... one of the easiest ways for a defense to get an out.  As the hitter progresses in strength, timing, pitch recognition, etc., it may make sense to take the plane more upward beyond pitch plane, depending on the hitter, again, IMO.

cabbagedad posted:

If the incoming pitch is at a 6-10 degree angle and the swing is 10-20 degrees, by definition, wouldn't that result more often in topspin than backspin?  I realize that where on the ball contact occurs is also a factor in this equation.  Just trying to understand the math of your statement.

In MLB swings the bat head generally goes under the plane of the incoming pitch, and will generally hit under the (horizontal) center of the ball.

If you hit anywhere under the center, the ball goes up, and it has backspin.

Doesn't have anything to do with HS but... 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/w...-true-outcomes-trend

SultanofSwat posted:

cabbagedad posted:

If the incoming pitch is at a 6-10 degree angle and the swing is 10-20 degrees, by definition, wouldn't that result more often in topspin than backspin?  I realize that where on the ball contact occurs is also a factor in this equation.  Just trying to understand the math of your statement.

In MLB swings the bat head generally goes under the plane of the incoming pitch, and will generally hit under the (horizontal) center of the ball.

If you hit anywhere under the center, the ball goes up, and it has backspin.

 

Thanks Sultan, yeah that's what I was referring to when I said "where on the ball contact occurs is also a factor in this equation".  I am aware of that aspect.  Certainly, if you hit under center, there is backspin.  My question was just in reference to your description of the pitch plane vs swing plane.   It appears you are assuming what you describe with the MLB swing generally hitting under center, in which backspin pretty much occurs regardless of pitch plane vs swing plane.

Wonder what the number is for high school baseball:

https://twitter.com/ChrisBurke.../1078854943153549313

2019Dad posted:

Wonder what the number is for high school baseball:

https://twitter.com/ChrisBurke.../1078854943153549313

There might be a selection bias though. Probably mostly very fast players try and often it probably was against the shift or an infield playing very deep.

If players did it more often the infield would probably play in on him.

Still i like the use of it occasionally especially to disrupt the use of unusual infield alingments.

Hit the ball hard. Hit it in the air. If your son's instructor gets him to do both more regularly, you have a good one. If your son does not do this, you may not have a good one.

People in this thread can disagree all they want with the idea that 2 + 2 = 4, but no matter how hard they try, adding 2 + 2 does not equal 5.

Hitting the ball to the pull side in the air hard yields the best results in all of baseball. It's proven. There is no debate here. Increasing contact percentage and ability to adjust also matter. But do not forget what matters most - demolishing baseballs in the air. And line drives are in the air, before anyone complains about fly balls.

Dominik85 posted:

2019Dad posted:

Wonder what the number is for high school baseball:

https://twitter.com/ChrisBurke.../1078854943153549313

There might be a selection bias though. Probably mostly very fast players try and often it probably was against the shift or an infield playing very deep.

If players did it more often the infield would probably play in on him.

Still i like the use of it occasionally especially to disrupt the use of unusual infield alingments.

Absolutely right. It's also typically used in college with some element of surprise. Those 7,000 bunts only represent 2% of all PAs. The numbers also don't reflect the foul balls/strikes. Having said all that, the success rate is high, so maybe there's room for a little more of it in college ball for the guys who aren't getting many XBH.

MLB numbers:

Good chart. MidAtlanticDad

Funny, the "Jason Ochart talks launch and attack..." podcast discusses swing/launch angle to address the thread drift, and then talks about what youth players need to work on as far as strength (@50;00).

2022OFDad posted:

Good chart. MidAtlanticDad

I think most MLB teams are looking for Barrels. Barrels include line drive and fly balls. Like Kyle says, hit it hard and hit it in the air. 

MLB Definition:

• Ground ball: Less than 10 degrees
• Line drive: 10-25 degrees
• Fly ball: 25-50 degrees
• Pop up: Greater than 50 degrees

Kyle Boddy posted:

Hit the ball hard. Hit it in the air. If your son's instructor gets him to do both more regularly, you have a good one. If your son does not do this, you may not have a good one.

People in this thread can disagree all they want with the idea that 2 + 2 = 4, but no matter how hard they try, adding 2 + 2 does not equal 5.

Hitting the ball to the pull side in the air hard yields the best results in all of baseball. It's proven. There is no debate here. Increasing contact percentage and ability to adjust also matter. But do not forget what matters most - demolishing baseballs in the air. And line drives are in the air, before anyone complains about fly balls.

A+, Kyle. It's almost like we have people arguing against Ted Williams and his book the Science of Hitting. Ted was right. The basic philosophy he passed along is proven by the data available today and driveline has been a big part of providing even better details.  I haven't met 1 high school player at my cage who doesn't have the physical ability to hit a hard line drive into the outfield. Why would anyone not want a ball into the air in the OF? Bringing math back into it, there are 6 defensive players covering a small infield and only 3 OF covering the huge area called the outfield.  What's the best shot of getting a hit? Putting the ball in the air into the OF.

Disagree with some of the comments.  I have coached hitting for 35+ years.  The swing is the swing regardless of age.  So, if you teach whatever philosophy it is you believe in as a hitting coach, that is what you coach for all.  How else would/could you justify telling a client and parents that you are instructing anything less than what you consider a high level swing.  Launch angle for most hitting coaches is nothing more that what Ted Williams stated in The Science of Hitting.  

Here are some things to think about:

• Can you sit in on lesson and watch the instructor instruct another hitter?  If not, why not?  I let parents sit in and watch and I encourage potential new clients and parents to do the same.
• Do you agree with or understand the philosophy that the instructor uses?  "Experts" are a dime a dozen.  The level that one played doesn't mean that they know what they are doing and, if they do, that they can translate that to the hitter.
• Does the terminology makes sense to you?  Remember, if you pick an instructor, you have to be able to assist your child/hitter and so, need to understand the terminology.  For example, "staying back" has a whole lot of different meanings.
• How does the instructor instruct?  Personally, I would never pick an instructor who doesn't establish a running dialogue with the hitter.  My goal is to be so good that your child doesn't need me.  I don't have secrets.  I want them to know their swing as well as I will come to know it.  I want to be out of a job!
• People often say that "word of mouth" is important.  Be careful!  Often if a hitter does poorly, the instructor gets the blame and often that hitter did poorly before they came to the instructor.  
• Cost!  What is the going rate in the area and are you prepared to pay it?  This amazes me.  We have people paying upwards of $50+ per half hour.  Personally speaking, for that money, that instruction had better be good.
• Facilities/Technology.  Safety first!  I think many of us have seen the video of the young man hitting a ball off of a machine where the ball came back and hit him in the face.  From there, you have so many other things to consider.  For example, my hitters have a second cage to hit in without my instruction.  It has Tanner Tees, screens, all types of balls, and it is used by both those who are reporting to lessons to get loose and those who have finished lessons who want to get more swings in.  I don't have the other gizmos that the expensive guys have.  I can't tell you bat exit speed.  I don't video every lesson.  I do video but a before, during and at the end video to show progress.  I used to use RVP but mine is down now.  If all of this matters, it comes with a cost.
• Does your instructor come to watch your child/hitter in games?  I do as much as I can.  If not, will they breakdown game video?  
• As pointed out, does your child need lessons every week?  Most hitting instructors will try to sell you a package.  They want that money up front and want their cage time set.  Some instructors have open slots for breaks, etc.  Is that time available to take your child/hitter every once in a while for a tune up.  I do this at the end of the day.  If you want that time slot, I'll stay.  

I hope that this helped some.  I am not an "Expert."  I don't run a business.  I teach hitting and help kids.  I try not to take on more than 22 hitters at any given time.  I am cheap.  I charge $15 per half hour.  Maybe you get what you pay for.  Maybe you get more.  LOL  Good luck finding what you are looking for.  

CoachB25 posted:

Disagree with some of the comments.  I have coached hitting for 35+ years.  The swing is the swing regardless of age.  So, if you teach whatever philosophy it is you believe in as a hitting coach, that is what you coach for all.  How else would/could you justify telling a client and parents that you are instructing anything less than what you consider a high level swing.  Launch angle for most hitting coaches is nothing more that what Ted Williams stated in The Science of Hitting.  

Here are some things to think about:

• Can you sit in on lesson and watch the instructor instruct another hitter?  If not, why not?  I let parents sit in and watch and I encourage potential new clients and parents to do the same.
• Do you agree with or understand the philosophy that the instructor uses?  "Experts" are a dime a dozen.  The level that one played doesn't mean that they know what they are doing and, if they do, that they can translate that to the hitter.
• Does the terminology makes sense to you?  Remember, if you pick an instructor, you have to be able to assist your child/hitter and so, need to understand the terminology.  For example, "staying back" has a whole lot of different meanings.
• How does the instructor instruct?  Personally, I would never pick an instructor who doesn't establish a running dialogue with the hitter.  My goal is to be so good that your child doesn't need me.  I don't have secrets.  I want them to know their swing as well as I will come to know it.  I want to be out of a job!
• People often say that "word of mouth" is important.  Be careful!  Often if a hitter does poorly, the instructor gets the blame and often that hitter did poorly before they came to the instructor.  
• Cost!  What is the going rate in the area and are you prepared to pay it?  This amazes me.  We have people paying upwards of $50+ per half hour.  Personally speaking, for that money, that instruction had better be good.
• Facilities/Technology.  Safety first!  I think many of us have seen the video of the young man hitting a ball off of a machine where the ball came back and hit him in the face.  From there, you have so many other things to consider.  For example, my hitters have a second cage to hit in without my instruction.  It has Tanner Tees, screens, all types of balls, and it is used by both those who are reporting to lessons to get loose and those who have finished lessons who want to get more swings in.  I don't have the other gizmos that the expensive guys have.  I can't tell you bat exit speed.  I don't video every lesson.  I do video but a before, during and at the end video to show progress.  I used to use RVP but mine is down now.  If all of this matters, it comes with a cost.
• Does your instructor come to watch your child/hitter in games?  I do as much as I can.  If not, will they breakdown game video?  
• As pointed out, does your child need lessons every week?  Most hitting instructors will try to sell you a package.  They want that money up front and want their cage time set.  Some instructors have open slots for breaks, etc.  Is that time available to take your child/hitter every once in a while for a tune up.  I do this at the end of the day.  If you want that time slot, I'll stay.  

I hope that this helped some.  I am not an "Expert."  I don't run a business.  I teach hitting and help kids.  I try not to take on more than 22 hitters at any given time.  I am cheap.  I charge $15 per half hour.  Maybe you get what you pay for.  Maybe you get more.  LOL  Good luck finding what you are looking for.  

Well said. 

2019Dad posted:

Wonder what the number is for high school baseball:

https://twitter.com/ChrisBurke.../1078854943153549313

I like it!!

CoachB25 posted:

Lots of good info coach. Thanks for bringing it back to OP. I had to smile that I "followed" many of your bullet points you presented when we selected a hitting coach for my 2015. His coach was listed as the best hitting coach by the State HS Baseball Association, and my son's HS coach heard of him. Though he taught little to my son on launch angle, he taught my son how to hit with 2 strikes which is vital to his game. He focused on hitting the ball square, hard..line drives and the importance of his quick hands. Also taught him to hit behind runners and oppo which played to a strength.  Even today I'll notice the bigger swing son will take with a runner on third less than two outs and a favorable count. Those who are looking at him for the "next level" talk about him getting on base, putting pressure on the defense with his speed, and taking away runs with his glove. Not a one size fits all. I remember one instructor who worked with teammates of son who taught the "squash the bug" with an upper cut because every infield grounder is an out. We talk about finding a "good fit" for selecting colleges. I think the same can be said about hitting coaches.

Kyle Boddy posted:

Hit the ball hard. Hit it in the air. If your son's instructor gets him to do both more regularly, you have a good one. If your son does not do this, you may not have a good one.

People in this thread can disagree all they want with the idea that 2 + 2 = 4, but no matter how hard they try, adding 2 + 2 does not equal 5.

Hitting the ball to the pull side in the air hard yields the best results in all of baseball. It's proven. There is no debate here. Increasing contact percentage and ability to adjust also matter. But do not forget what matters most - demolishing baseballs in the air. And line drives are in the air, before anyone complains about fly balls.

What I bolded is the most important. I agree with a lot of what you're saying and mostly the main point: Line drives = good. But the biggest problem is that many hitters are so fixated on elevating the baseball and buying into the idea that ground balls are for chumps that they can't adjust. When it works it works, but when it doesn't the result is a K or a weak pop out 90% of the time. They can't hit situationally, they aren't capable of making productive outs. I can get behind the theory that elevation is better for hitters, but it needs to be executed better. I see too many hitters batting .247 with 28 HRs who can't move a runner over from 2nd to 3rd with no outs because they are trying to hit the ball 500ft down the line. Either the approach is flawed or hitters are not executing the method at the level it needs to be. Which tells me that the approach is not for everybody. Guys like Lemahieu and Gardner are much better served working down and hitting for average than hitting 16 HRs and batting .260. Big guys that don't run well, not so much. I'm all for listening to the numbers, but when the numbers show that a player isn't productive, there has to be a different approach. 

Multisportdad posted:

The coaches has the pedigree and is well respected.  His dad had a cup of coffee in the MLB.   I don't think Coach follows the new trends, or does a lot of research into new methods; but teaches what he knows (which seems considerable).    This is in contrast to many coaches in town who introduce all sorts of stuff to make the hitter "less comfortable"and or claim their methods are cutting edge.

Two questions?

1) How can you tell how if a kid is beginning to exceed the ability of a coach to help him?

2) Is there a newer method- whether technology based or not,  that seems to be giving better results than a traditional method.

To answer the original question. Outgrowing a coach can happen. They get so used to seeing the same problems and giving the same advice that it doesn't feel like he's progressing. 

I know you're not a baseball guy, but if you continue to see some of the same problems in his ABs (keeps grounding out to same position, lunging at slower pitching, hits the ball hard but never out of the IF) just ask around. Talk to the coach after the game, is there anything you think he needs to work on is always a good start. Talk to some of the more knowledgeable baseball parents or parents of the better players. See who they go to, ask if their son's ever had similar issues. Next time they go to a lesson ask to tag along and pay for/split the lesson. 

To answer the second question. There is no one size fits all answer. It varies by hitter. The methods and technology your son uses as practice don't make him a good hitter. What makes a player as good hitter is "hitting the ball good". The goal at his age should be to become a well rounded hitter. Goes gap to gap, puts the ball in play, patient, draws walks, minimal strikeouts, can start recognizing off speed pitches, protecting the plate, etc. I wouldn't worry so much about cutting edge tech and methods as much as I would focus on how do I get rid of any weak links. 

Just a quick update on what we did for my son when he began stagnating with his instructor (and remember, I am a non baseball guy who can't teach own son). 

 We found a new guy, and wow, I didn't know what I didn't know.

To find him, asked around a lot,  narrowed it to about 5 guys, and spent some time watching them each give lessons.    If my presence wasn't obviously welcome,  I scratched him off the list.

I picked a highly regarded guy who seemed excited about teaching, ran an efficient lesson, and would actually keep working past the 30 minute mark.

Was it a good choice?  Yes,  he has liberated my son emotionally at the plate.  It is crazy how much more my son enjoys the game.

Now at the plate,  son's thought process is "to win every pitch and line out to the center fielder".  That's it.  This is something a 13 year old brain can wrap itself around!

Fast forward to the season, lots more hits, lots more XBH's, and far less stress at the plate regardless of the outcome.

So the moral of the story is this, if your son truly working and you think there may be an issue or disconnect with current instructor- let your loyalty be to your son, not the coach.  Do the due diligence.

That's awesome that it worked out. 

Glad you found the right instructor for your son.  Patience, lots of searching, and a little luck is needed for the right "fit".  For my son I found his hitting instructor through talking with numerous parents and coaches.  Only problem -  he was booked up, thus we had to wait about 12-14 months.  Son took lessons from my 2nd & 3rd choice instructors which ended up being OK, nothing fantastic.  Finally a slot opened up with my primary choice and we grabbed it (time was a little late but couldn't be choosy).  Eventually was able to get preferred day and time slot.  If you think you found the right guy don't give up if  he has no openings, keep at it and it may work out in the end!