How will you teach hitting?

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

...Now, I have placed the actually thought...

No, you didn't "get" the first jab and I doubt if you "get" this one.

Cool, try harder with your insult buddy. You are just back stepping now since you have been put on the spot. Oh by the way, try and remove your self from a certain person's back side and maybe you will comprehend what I am getting at with my post.

Oh yeah, Why do we drive on a parkway and park in a driveway?
Scooter

Linear,
Your relentless criticism of the youth coaches has got me thinking, I wonder how many major league baseball players started out in youth baseball. I would venture to say that most, if not all of them did.

As I said before, what a shame that Mr. Schenck (Linear) retired from coaching. If he'd have kept coaching we now have 45 MLB teams, all full of his former students!

how could you turn your back on MLB like that Richard?!?!?

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Linear,
Your relentless criticism of the youth coaches has got me thinking, I wonder how many major league baseball players started out in youth baseball. I would venture to say that most, if not all of them did.

How many criminals started out in jail???

Why Ask Why??

Absolutely Gloveman. Its all in the preparation.

Coachric

Linear,

quote:

How many criminals started out in jail???

Thanks for your example. VERY good. "How many people in jail started out as criminals?". I would say just about all of them. Thanks for proving my point!
Fungo

LOL

That was pretty funny.
Stepped right into it.

Fungo

I said...."How many criminals started in jail"?

Of course, it won't make your point so you change it to "How many people in jail started out as criminals".

Sorry, I'm not buying your *** backwards logic.

For "followers" I don't recommend you drink the Kool Aid.

The point I'm making is the vast majority of players that make it, can not point to anything but their own trial and error process that got them there. What got them there was learned on their own, and with most cases their dad. Again, vast majority.

So much a vast majority, that not only can most players not point to a coach who made the difference in their understanding of "how to get the barrel there quicker" but most coaches, in fact, were obstacles themselves in the learning process. Not facilitators. Not teachers. But, obstacles.

The things most coaches provide is opportunities to play. Which is very valuable. What they don't provide because they refuse to study is "skill" knowledge, in particular "hitting skill knowledge". But they really like the accolades when they live in a community that have kids who work there butts off, trial and error, with dad, and then play at their school. Now, they like to say "look at me!! Look what "I" can do." ""I" can put him in the 1 hole, him in the 2 hole, him in the 3 hole etc, he can pitch, he can field and....oh my god....look what "I" can do." Right B25? Well, only about 95 out of a 100 can look at 20 players and pick the best 9.....What really are you doing?

What good is it if someone provides an opportunity while at the same time unknowingly placing obstacles to one's success. And, it's these obstacles that cause the "baseball track record" to be so bad. Plain and simple, bad coaching. About 40% of major leaguers are from other countries even though we have all the wealth, facilities, etc etc. If there was any decent rate of good knowledge dissimination that figure would be much lower.

It's

Ever have an original thought? You remind me of the "hit me" guy in One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest.

Long and the short of it is you "lineup card maker outers" that call yourselves coaches, have no clue what is involved in a high level swing. Not only have no clue, but want no clue. Which is the worse sin a coach can commit.

But you do like trophies.....right B25?

Isn't it about time for your self strokes?

Linear,

You stepped into the poop. LOL

As for "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" - Was that DeVito? If so - yup - I look just like him.

LOL

FWIW ..the latest info on hitting which I find most desciptive has been evolving for 3-4 years. Now I know baseball has been around for a while but many people are not up on the latest stuff. I will let you guys argue whether it is good or bad.


The group that could use a brushing up can include anybody. A childhood friend of mine just stopped by and we talked hitting. He was interested in the new methods of teaching rotational hitting as he still dabbles in it. He pitched for the Twins in a World Series, played for Atlanta and several other organizations.

My forays into camp settings does reveal some mind numbing approaches to the swing that have kids looking for clover. If I had found that those presentations had the answers then I would have stopped searching and none of you guys would be here either

quote:

The point I'm making is the vast majority of players that make it, can not point to anything but their own trial and error process that got them there. What got them there was learned on their own, and with most cases their dad. Again, vast majority.

Let me get this straight players have reached their goals by their own trial and error and not by no coach's helping hand. Well, I guess that puts you into the same category as the rest of us. Because if the vast number of players reach these goals without our help, then the vast number you have coached have reached their goals without your help. So basically, your belief and coaching ability is no better than the rest of ours especially if players reach their goals without any help except for dad.

quote:

The things most coaches provide is opportunities to play. Which is very valuable. What they don't provide because they refuse to study is "skill" knowledge, in particular "hitting skill knowledge". But they really like the accolades when they live in a community that have kids who work there butts off, trial and error, with dad, and then play at their school. Now, they like to say "look at me!! Look what "I" can do." ""I" can put him in the 1 hole, him in the 2 hole, him in the 3 hole etc, he can pitch, he can field and....oh my god....look what "I" can do." Right B25? Well, only about 95 out of a 100 can look at 20 players and pick the best 9.....What really are you doing?

Please dont paint the kettle black, cause you stated in a post the other day that only good players can comprehend what you teach. So basically, you are syaing you only take advanced players that already have a good foundation and tweak it here and there and then proclaim you are an expert, which is no different then what you just stated. Anyone can do that with a little reading about Epstein's system. So what are you really doing?

quote:

And, it's these obstacles that cause the "baseball track record" to be so bad. Plain and simple, bad coaching.

Maybe, it is just because kids here in the United States have more to choose from than the other countries. I am sorry that you are angry at the system of coaching because you weren't given a shot to go further. I was blacked-balled by my high school coach cause I wasn't a good ole boy but I admire all coaches and teachers because they are the back bone of our future leaders along with some good parental support and love.

quote:

Ever have an original thought? You remind me of the "hit me" guy in One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest.

Have you ever had an orginial thought yourself?


You are always blasting on Coach Butler and I think it is jealousy. Why? because he is successful at getting players to the next level and you just take advanced players and tweak their mechanics and they give you no accolades for their progress. You may not won't them to tell you thank you and you may say you don't do it for that but deep inside everyone wants the acknowledgement of helping others reach their goals

Scooter

Scooter

I offered it to him last year-- come and do a hitting seminar at one of our showcases--- all I got was silence--DUH !!!!!

I have your back !!!

Trhit,

Thanks and I remember your invitation but thats was not to Linear that was to Teacherman and Linear doesn't know Teacherman....lol


Scooter

quote:

...not by no coach's helping hand.

There you go again.

Did you say you're studying to be a teacher/coach?

Then again....

quote:

Any where, Any time, Any place

I can't decide where you're better suited.

and lacrosse here in the Northeast

Scooter

Then you know something we were not aware of--same ego-- same talk--same ego

quote:

...It would be nice to have great pitching coaches and great hitting coaches all over the country, but it won't make much of a difference...

Disagree. The number of "close but" players who don't make it now, could make it with a solid "upbringing". How many of them are there?

Why do they have to spend that kind of money on showcases, tournaments etc? Because the system is set up for coaches to win trophies and say "look what I've done". Put all the best on one team so we can win. Now, lets travel all over the country for tournaments. Player development is of no interest to 95% of them. "Pick em clean quick". They use you until they have a better replacement. Then they kick you to the curb. Let's win win win.

"Coaches" don't teach. They are trophy happy.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

The African American kids have been left out of the game in just a short period of time, because baseball in America has become an upper middle to upper class game. When you spend $7,000-$20,000 every summer on showcases and travel teams, where do you think the African American inner city kid ends up? He ends up in a basketball or football uniform. So does the lower income level white kid. If you can't afford to showcase and travel team, your chances of a scholarship diminish, because all the college coaches go to showcases and follow big time travel teams.

S>O>C>C>ER is the problem.

Bingo!

Great post. IMO.

Linear - You may just not be in the right place.

That is definitely not the case here.

I wish it were as easy as blaming the S game. As Doug pointed out, the S game is merely catering to what our kids and the parents seem to want: an easy victory with lots of praise to go around.

I've always liked a quote I read somewhere, made by a high school teacher: "Football may be the best subject taught in high school because it's the only subject we haven't tried to make easy."

Kids aren't stupid. When they receive what is perceived by them to be "good coaching" and they still fail, they move on.

If they had the "real deal" (coaching) and had the success they all deserve, they wouldn't leave the game as quickly.

But, who is in charge of youth baseball through high school in the USA.........Your neighbors and mine. Volunteers. 99% with no clue.

Holy Cow. Well-meaning but clueless people.

So, dads do what? Go to the local training center to find a teacher for the son. What do they find? Ex pros who could but can't. They played but can't begin to tell you what they did right. And the cycle continues every year.

Those who finally make it do so from stubborn trial and error. They have to ignore coaching to make it. Some can deal with that. Some can't.

quote:

Player development is of no interest to 95% of them.

So basically teams just put an ad in the paper for a non-paying coaching position and the first person who phones gets the job, even if it was my grandma?

It seems to me, Linear, that it is YOU who seems to be trying to gain a ton of praise and recognition on here by challenging everyone's coaching beliefs and opinions, and even deny facts that BBScout has posted. Usually when someone posts stats based on populations there has been a background study. Those stats are facts, it's awfully hard to deny a fact: a fact being a proven statement. I think denying the facts and continually trying to be always right just shows alot about your character.

Linear

Have a great holiday and please find a new attitude--from what I am told you are too young to be so angry at the world, especially the youth coach portion of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr3000:
...and even deny facts that BBScout has posted.

Don't get me wrong, I like bbscout. Can always have an educated discussion/debate with him. But, I must say, his facts are no different than anyone elses in my book.

quote:

...Usually when someone posts stats based on populations there has been a background study. Those stats are facts, it's awfully hard to deny a fact: a fact being a proven statement. I think denying the facts and continually trying to be always right just shows alot about your character.

I believe the facts bbscout posted had to do with upper, middle and lower class americans. And why they don't chose baseball. That is quite different from my point about why millions start and less than 100 get to the mlb level.

So why don't you take the first move to change that?

Become a volanteer youth coach, you can do it, I challange you. Give back to the game that ripped your dark heart out.

Why did you "quit" coaching to begin with?

I am reminded of Uncle Rico from Napolean Dynamite

Rico: "How much you want to make a bet I can throw a football over them mountains? Yeah. If coach would've put me in fourth quarter... we'd have been state champions, no doubt. No doubt in my mind. You better believe things would have been different. I'd have gone pro...in a heartbeat. I'd be makin' millions of dollars and... livin' in a... big ol' mansion somewhere. You know, soakin' it up in a hot tub with my soul mate. Kip, I reckon you know a lot about cyberspace. Y-You ever come across anything like time travel?"

Sound familiar Richard? Rico.... hey how about that for a coincidence.

millians?

That's the second time you've used that word. What exactly is a "millian?

And...............coaches do win trophies at showcases. The trophy is invisible but now the "standing" in their little world is priceless. Really pumps the ego.

"Well, so and so (his player) did this or did that at the showcase. Play for me and you could have similar results."

Now he takes that information, recruits him the best team out of his are and turns it into trophies.

Look what I did for so and so. When in reality, all he did was recruit so and so and make out the lineup card..

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
Kids aren't stupid. When they receive what is perceived by them to be "good coaching" and they still fail, they move on.

If they had the "real deal" (coaching) and had the success they all deserve, they wouldn't leave the game as quickly.

But, who is in charge of youth baseball through high school in the USA.........Your neighbors and mine. Volunteers. 99% with no clue.

Holy Cow. Well-meaning but clueless people.

So, dads do what? Go to the local training center to find a teacher for the son. What do they find? Ex pros who could but can't. They played but can't begin to tell you what they did right. And the cycle continues every year.

Those who finally make it do so from stubborn trial and error. They have to ignore coaching to make it. Some can deal with that. Some can't.

If that is the case, then who is teaching the Dominicans? The poor American kids can't afford an ex-pro coach, so in your thinking, they should then be better off, but they arn't, and they are dropping out of baseball.

NO ONE TEACHES THE DOMINICANS. They just play ball all day every day. It's their only chance. And a much higher percentage of Dominicans make it than Americans.

Why? Less coaching obstacles in the Domincan.

For all concerned I would like to keep on topic.

My concern is not how many African Amercians play baseball. I could care less what they do.

My only concern and all I care to discuss is the poor coaching that leads to millions of American kids falling short of their baseball potential.

Regardless of their color.

There is no question there are tons of options for all kids to chose from.

Let's talk about the ones who chose baseball and don't reach their goals. Why?

The "skill coaching" is horrendous. In fact, 90% is obstruction. Stands in the way of a hitters progress.

Are you going to answer my question or are you going to avoid it all together.

Why did you "quit" coaching to begin with?

your bio on your website says you were a teacher and coached sports at the HS level, I would simply like to know why you quit both.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
...As Fungo pointed out, if there are only 100 openings in the big leagues, then it does not matter if you train 80 Billion players.....there will still only be 100 openings.

Test your mind. Search for the deeper meaning.

Scout

Of all the people on this board, you are one of the few that I believe understand and do things for the right reasons.

Now, that being said, are you just so tired of me that you'll deny that the vast majority of all travel teams are not interested in player development? That the leader of the vast majority of those organizations couldn't begin to instruct a hitter on his skill? Or a pitcher on his skills?

Linear (teacherman):

Of all the people on this board (and numerous others), you are one of the few that I believe understands and does things for the “wrong” reason.

THop

Why did you "quit" coaching to begin with?

It doesn't have to be a long explination. Just a short summary will do.

Linear

what do you do for a living?

what does bbscout do for a living and has done his entire life?

Case closed !

I will let my kids listen to Doug not you

I appears we missed your birthday Richard, Nov 4th right? Happy belated birthday!

OK. We agree. No skill coaching at "older" travel ball level?

Same at the younger level travel levels.

Same at the youth level. Volunteers coaches most with no background.

Same at the high school level. We know the qualifications for a high school coach.

Same at the beginning level. Well-meaning volunteers that have little or no background.

Now, where is all this good coaching everyone believes exists?

So, how do they learn. They stumble onto it themselves by trial and error and repetition.

What if there was good coaching. Hell, at this point I'd settle for non-obstructive coaching. Just stay out of a players way.

WOW, I guess I should change my name to Ghost Man..... it's cool to be invisible!

"I bet I could throw the football over those mountains"

Why did you quit coaching?

Linear

So as to enlighten you in a field you that have no idea about:

SHOWCASES--there are no trophies and I know no coach who thinks as you do where a showcase is concerned--the coaches are there to showcase the kids not recruit

TRAVEL TEAMS--the key here is to refine the skills of the kids who are all fine players to begin with or they wouldn't be there--I am with bbscout here-- a travel team plays the best competition they can so as to get the players ready for the next level.Do the coaches coach and instruct? YES-- but in a different manner than you are aware of now or will ever be aware of

You know what Linear--you spout a lot of stuff but we know nothing about you-- good bad or indifferent I wear my heart on my sleeve, bbscout is who he is and many others are not afraid to be known--good, bad or indifferent I know I am proud of and know who and what I am.

I cant speak for others but I am sure they are as comfortable as well otherwise they would not open up.

Can you say the same ?

You seem frustrated in trying to impress everyone with how much you think you know.

But then I know what site to go to read what you say and with the same attitude as you as well


DUH !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then go read. I hear you got mentioned there today. In fact, many here should go read there today. You'll find out quite a bit about who the imposters are.

I have a pretty good idea who one of them is!

Put up or shut up

Make a difference.

Would love to. Riddle me this. How many youth coaches do you know that will want to be told they know nothing? Even, if I can prove it.

I will guarantee you this though. If I live long enough. My grandsons/granddaughters will be on one of the best hitting teams ever to play the game at the level I get to coach them. Give me them when they begin. Then "test" them 3 years later.

not talking college here Richard, we're talking youth ball, ages 10 to 18. Will you do it?

I want to pick up the ST Louis Post Dispatch and read where a local bar owner has given his precious time and vast knowledge to the local baseball teams.... for free. i'll put out the press release if you do it. Imagine the free pub you could get for your pool hall. it's a win-win opportunity!

Linear

you have not proved you know anything here so why should we suspect you can prove it to youth coaches

one other thing-- why not name the poster you are directing your statements to--it would help--but then you cannot do that can you because you cannot get to the point other than say you are the only correct one--wanna dance ?--name the tune

Postscript-- dont go near the 'riddle me" this thing--you aint THE RIDDLER---

TR

If you're wondering which buffoon was mentioned at the other site, yes, you were one of them.

Now, are you glad I addressed this to you?

Linear

How can I answer you if I know what site you speak?

And boffoons are by whose definition?--yours

You know this is fun--it beats fighting with your wife or kids-- it takes the egde of

Thank you Linear

let me know what website I have been cited on

quote:

Originally posted by TRHit:
How can I answer you if I know what site you speak?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
...But then I know what site to go to read what you say and with the same attitude as you as well...

If you can't keep a line of thought longer than 20 minutes I'm going to have to call you "ALZ MAN".

...and now back to the topic. Swingbuster, your question is intriguing. Remember when Lau was the rage? He had a lot of success. Then others came in and changed a portion of that theory, created new terms and they were the rage. Why? IT SELLS!!! That as simple as I can say it! No I don't agree with all that Charlie Lau taught. I do respect the man and his accomplishments. So, what do you do? This isn't really about Linear/Teacherman/Ozzir/Rshard/... it's really about finding that style that you're convinced is correct then testing that to see if it really is what you believe. Then, it is defining that to your team or program. You have to do that by including those drills that you value and discarding those that you don't. Now, you test that and discussing hitting with others who's values you respect. Believe me, you will then find some flaws in what you knew to be the truth. Refine those some more and then teach what you know. Once you have done all of this, tell yourself that you will always be the student and not the expert but you impart your knowledge on your players. We can have a 1,000 opinions on who's right and wrong here. However, the proof is in the success of those kids you coach and the knowledge that you did your best!

Linear,

As I told you before. "Shock and Awe" marketing is a bad idea.

Just state your opinions about how you teach hitting. That may have value. We know you have no credentials whatsoever - but you articulate well IMO. - And that may have value.

The rest of your stuff about youth coaching is utter nonsense. You need to travel a bit - get on the road for 100 days or so - go to the facilities - watch the coaching - and experience the real deal.

I know that isnt original - but You know what I know. The original marketing concept is failing - miserably.

LOL

B25,

As a coach you must create a hitting system at your school that works. You find the absolutes and go with them.

I believe that Englishbey's

Posture, connect, rotate is efficient. It can be the similar to nostride, bat in 45 slot, drop and tilt...although they would say not exactly but as far as player understanding pretty close.

The connect portion ...I take to mean the bottom hand lead shoulder connects to the turn quickly helps get the barrel out in the zone with force.

To best do that...IMO...the details.....

the lead elbow is down close to the body ( maybe what you mean with the towel drill) as the stride or shift begins.

If the top hand is pronated ( palm over/ bat cocked) then the rear elbow elevates and internally rotates to get in the proper position inside the target line.

then...

Rear elbow action is up(top palm angles down) then elbow internally rotates then slots/ external rotation/ top palm up.

A slight plane change from at least splitting helmet to 45 launch aids this rear elbow action and makes loading work well.

It insures the fact that the hands will come out knob to oppo box and the barrel will get out there from flail.

The lead elbow starts close to pect then as the bat flattens it goes into the plane of the pitch.

quote:

My concern is not how many African Amercians play baseball. I could care less what they do.

So basically, you believe in discrimination towards other of a different race and only coaching the gifted athletes who can learn something one way.

quote:

For all concerned I would like to keep on topic.

It is on topic and BBscout has kept it on topic. You are the one who is back tracking and trying to hide your tail under your legs cause you've been put on the spot and don't have an answer. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't you say

quote:

The point I'm making is the vast majority of players that make it, can not point to anything but their own trial and error process that got them there. What got them there was learned on their own, and with most cases their dad. Again, vast majority.

BBscout asked you or stated that if this is true then why aren't more African Americans playing baseball because in the inner city they learn the game by their on trial and error.

quote:

Let's talk about the ones who chose baseball and don't reach their goals. Why?

Maybe, they decided they didn't want to play anymore because of the work needed to get better, decided to get a job, wanted more time to spend with their friends, and etc... It could be many reasons instead of your simple minded answer reagarding the lack of coaching. I think the real truth is a dream didn't happen for someone you know and now instead of blaming them or yourself, you just decide to blame the coaching rank ...Grandpa.

quote:

out of his are

Before criticizing others for improper language usage, learn to spell the simple words such as area. And you say you used to be a teacher, hmmm no wonder you quit, I would have to with your horrendous spelling.

quote:

player development

I don't think you are to worried about player development with some of your simple minded answers and replies. I think you paint the kettle black and are trying to be something you are not because you are no different then anyone here just a better liar and con. Because if you were as worried about the quality of coaching in the U.S., you would be volunteering your time to make sure kids are given a chance to learn the skill of hitting but you hide and reply with wait until my grandkids start playing. You are a fraud who is looking for a pat on the back for something you didn't even come up with on your own...


Scooter

I do believe, in fact I know, that Linear's hitting beliefs are genuine and grounded in truth and fact.....He does have an exemplary understanding of how to get the bat around to the ball in the most efficient manner presently known......And, this is because of the willingness of a certain person to share his knowledge, whose name can't be mentioned on this website.....

Problem is, you can't just tell baseball Coaches, or players, to forget everything they ever learned about swinging a bat.....They have to feel an efficient (high level) swing in their bones to understand what Linear is saying.....Until this happens, the understanding part won't happen.....

Linear,

I know you can teach hitting. I have no doubt

My son graduated too. He had a good Senior Year but loved other parts of life more than baseball. To play beyond HS is a great commitment starting about your soph year and lasting until 22.

I was asked to teach our HS hitters by the Head Master and Head Coach. I have done it before but backed off as my son entered his HS playing time.

I am more interested in the individual instruction. There are kids that need help and want help. Whether we produce college level players or beyond is not the point. That would be a math equation dealing with the pool of kids you had at your disposal coupled with coaching talent too.

I love teaching and hang out here to get my fix until practice begins. I have refocused my objectives and learned some good cues in the last couple of weeks.

I miss my son badly but I want back on the horse. I see my baseball kids past and present all over town and I love those connections

Bluedog and Swingbuster,

I understand your points about Linear. My problem is with the fact that he always critizes but never offers explanations of why he believes his system is right. It is just we are wrong and he is right. How hard would it be for him to come on here and state his system step for step and then let us other coaches decide if we want to use it or not. Swingbuster doesn't come on here and belittle people for disagreeing with his system.


Scooter

I am afraid Ny**** taught some good mechanics but set a bad example for human tolerance. NY*** nomes do insist that people get their facts straight or be prepared to be challenged. They have produced some good info and observations that make sense and have helped me. They need to study the upper body physics more objectively as there is room to better describe it. They tend to get things right when they decide they exist. Need to spend more time promoting and distributing good info and less about who gets the credit

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter:
... never offers explanations of why he believes his system is right.

My explanations are all over this website.

Just because you don't understand them OR are too fricking lazy to search for them doesn't mean they don't exist.

EXAMPLE: In this very thread the discussion on moving your center to create momentum and the loading/unloading of your center is good stuff. However, you don't recognize it. Why? Because it's over your head at this time.

It's like asking a 4th grader to factor a binomial (algebra). Yet, they are just now learning their multiplication table.

Your problem is you don't know enough to understand what is right in front of you.

When you get an education you'll understand.

Start your study process now. Soon, you'll get it.

Until then stop embarassing yourself.

BTW, you aren't alone.

Linear,
I’ll make you a deal. (Pending approval by the site administrator) If you will document (and post) all aspects of what you believe to be the proper methods of hitting without the barbs and accusation toward others, I will lock that post and allow it to be part of the HSBBW. Like most people on the HSBBW I am unaware of your total philosophy of hitting. Sure I’ve read snippets in between verbal exchanges, but what I’m suggesting would be your contribution and yours alone. What do you say?
Thanks,
Fungo

DISCLAIMER: I am not involved financially in any way shape or form with S E T P R O. In fact, I was banned from their site in mid December.

I have been on a lifelong quest to get to the bottom of what it takes to be a hitter.

I have never claimed this stuff to be "mine". I'm just a motivated student. Motivated enough to spend upwards of 20 hours per week studying and teaching for the last 5 years. I've done the trial and error thing. I've got almost every video or book on hitting. I've bought every gadget that I thought was interesting. BTW, most are junk. Get a T and a net and a video camera and start swinging.

The trial and error thing involves thousands of hours. If you'd like to reduce your trial and error period, listen to what is being taught at S E T P R O .com.

Just create a permanent link to S E T P R O .com or hitting-mechanics.org.
No need for a locked thread of mine. This isn't my stuff. It's all documented on their site(s).

If the hsbaseballweb was interested in promoting the best baseball information available, they'd give S E T P R O their endorsement.

Before TR and all the other 1st rungers say "who has he developed". Consider he's only been around for 5 years or so. That the majority of players he gets are "on their last leg". They have engrained mechanics that require thousands of hours to change.....most unwilling to make the changes because they have to go back before they can go forward....and their current level of competition can not deal with that. They won't play if they can't produce.

However, they are working with a significant number of youngsters. In 5-10 years the S E T P R O impact will be felt.

Linear,

I am not embarassing myself cause I am not the one going around saying they are GOD. I do understand what you are talking about and it has been around for a long time, the only difference is it is stated in different terms.

Example, you talk about loading and unloading your center...to me that means going back before you can go forward. Basically, loading your body to guarantee proper rotational force from the ground up which will give you more power and bat quickness. In other words, coil up like a snake and explode.


Now, I dont need all the technical mumbo-jumbo you have to use to get the message across.

By the way moron, stop embarassing yourself by back-peddling over issues that you are afraid to answer and quit using statements that I can go read on a website.. Put your system in your own words.


Scooter

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter:
Linear,

I am not embarassing myself

As I just wrote, this post is extremely embarassing to you. You just don't know it.

quote:

Example, you talk about loading and unloading your center...to me that means going back before you can go forward.

Oh my God! That is so far from the truth that at your present level of understanding you wouldn't understand the truth.

quote:

Basically, loading your body to guarantee proper rotational force from the ground up

Oh my God! The swing is NOT a ground up movement.

quote:

I dont need all the technical mumbo-jumbo you have to use to get the message across.

Yes you do.

quote:

..quit using statements that I can go read on a website..

Why? That's where I got it. Show me where I claimed ownership to this information.

quote:

Put your system in your own words.

Again, I don't own a system. I am a follower of the one guy who has advanced hitting understanding to new heights.

Well,


Mr. I Know Hitting.... Tell me what you mean or regurgitate it from ****** for me


Scooter

And that one guy, may not have all the answers.

quote:

Oh my God! The swing is NOT a ground up movement.

So you are saying that you can stand flat footed and hit the ball 400 feet with just your arms. That is interesting, I didnt know that.

I will tell you what, lets play a game... you can ask me questions about hitting and I will do the same... I will give you my explanation of your questions and you give me your explanations of my questions.

Scooter

No one spoon fed me.

And, I won't spoon feed you.

But, if you do what I did, in about 6 months you will have to say......You know, that Linear.....

Until then, let people who can carry on a decent debate, debate. Sit back and listen.

Teacherman's hitting belief is based on how great hitters properly move the middle of the body......Teaching something such as this is not done by being abstract and saying, do this and this, and you got it.....

Honestly, most on this website don't even know the power source of a MLB hitter's swing......And, that's just the beginning of understanding rotation with connection and the correct use of posture.....Anyone who has a sincere interest in learning this stuff can do what Teacherman and many others, including myself, have done.....Do the research and trial and error.....

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter:
And that one guy, may not have all the answers

He will be the first to tell you he doesn't have all the answers.

He'll also be the first to tell you what is being taught by 95% is junk.

On the learning ladder of 25 rungs, he's on rung 20. I'm on rung 5. You're stepping onto the first rung.

quote:

Oh my God! The swing is NOT a ground up movement.

So basically, you are saying you don't have to use your legs... you can just swing flat footed. I thought we were talking hitting and not just one aspect of hitting.

Well, lets play a game, you ask me a question about hitting and if I get it wrong, you explain it to me with your technical bs.

Scooter

An efficient swing truly isn't from the ground up.......If anyone ever feels an efficient swing in their bones, they will understand that it's from the middle out......Again, research and trial and error is the only way to understand this stuff......There is a place to get the right information.....Find it....

Not interested. I prefer two minds if I'm going to debate.

Study up.

And, most would say I've been hard on you.

But, the reality is, if we debated, you'd get knocked out.

So, rather than bloody your pretty face, I'm going to cut you some slack.

Thanks for the support Blue Dog.

Usually it's a 1 on 5 debate, with me being the 1. Well, if TR is involved it's really 1 on 4.

That's about what it takes for a fair debate on this topic on this site.

If you're around, they'll need 10 people. I don't think they can come up with 10.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
No one spoon fed me.

And, I won't spoon feed you.

But, if you do what I did, in about 6 months you will have to say......You know, that Linear.....

Until then, let people who can carry on a decent debate, debate. Sit back and listen.

I like to listen to good debates but you dont have debates, you have blasting sessions with everyone. They cant have an opinion because when they do, it is wrong by your standards and then the blasting game starts with you instead of just saying how you would teach it, you just call them dumb and stupid. I dont follow one system, I try and learn from all systems. Oh yea, I am not a follower, I am a leader.... followers are just flunkies being used.


Scooter

As I said earlier, I prefer debates with two minds. If you'll notice, if Blue Dog, or buster or bbscout is involved, posters with good hitting minds, it's pretty good stuff.

If you don't like what you see find a debate that is at your level.

I'm just guessing but you may be able to debate Miranda rights.

Linear,

Seriously, which major league hitter best exemplifies your "swing" philosophies. I would be interested in seeing some video, to better understand you, rather than debate you.

In the past, you and I have traded barbs, but I'm willing to listen, if your willing to explain. It can be via email if you like, or you can tell me to go butt a stump.

Be good,
David

They all do.

Well, all the good ones.

There are really very few things they do differently.

They all swing from their center. They all load/unload in a similar fashion.

Most people are blinded by the what the hands and arms are doing and they totally miss the good stuff.

Check out their posture, their connection, the load/unload of their rotation.

Pay particular attention to their swing plane being perpendicular to their spine. Ask yourself, how do they do that on almost every swing at every pitch location.

It doesn't come from arm adjustment.

I love Bonds, Manny, Pujols. Olerud is a great example of how skill can overrule athletic ability. Ichiro loads/unloads like all of them. Arod looks different to the normal eye. But, check out his lower body.

I've got to go to work.

To be continued....

Scooter,

There is nothing new or revolutionary in what Linear puts forth.

Many people have been teaching it for many many years.

It is presented in a manner which makes it appear as if it is new. But it isnt.

It is also marketed very strangely - which hurts its ability to reach its' intended market.

Thats about it.


IMO.

What's up 1st runger?

I assume your saying swing with your torso?

Linear,

Could you at least award me rung #2 - for mercy's sake?

Hey Doug,

Long time no see....err talk. I hope all is good with you and yours.

Be good,
David

one great thing about this thread is its new years eve and people are still on here discussing baseball and providing opportunities to learn.
happy new years to all.
only 5 weeks to opening day of practice - in tennessee at least.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Linear,

Could you at least award me rung #2 - for mercy's sake?

In the spirit of the new year, I'll say your first foot is soundly planted on the first rung and your second foot is off the ground reaching for the next rung.

But, I have to say, TR's ladder is still hanging in his garage.

Linear,

I'll take what I can get.

may not be what linear was saying but some people are born with more natural born ability than others. those that arent as gifted have to work very hard developing and perfecting their skills.

Put four infielders in a 4 corners situation and have them throw to their left. Make them catch the ball in the center of their chest and get rid of it as quickly as possible to the next player.

Have their hips coiling and tell them to have the sense that their cheats are in the air as they release it you will see that rotational torque is a top body / lower body function and it is not ground up. They will appear to be floating as they release. There was a time I thought it was ground up but it is not.

bbscout,

Have never spent alot of time assessing Olerud's athletic ability - as I was too busy watching him run around the bases and making all the plays at his position.

I do think his hand/eye coordination as a defensive player - and as a hitter - is a god given gift. IMO.

Swingbuster,

Just adding a few thoughts.

The one thing I have never agreed with about Linear's approach is the lack of emphasis placed on hand/arm/wrist strength.

It does NOT have to be excluded from the hitting equation - and does not have to interfere with rotational technique IMO.

IMO - The stronger the hands/wrists/arms - the better off you will be.

no dispute of oleruds natural ability here. if you are in the majors that long you have some athletic ability. i was just trying to save some time and more arguments - linear had already stated what he meant by skill vs. athletic ability of olerud a few pages earlier on this thread. but some big leaguers do have to work harder on mastering technique than others. what that technique or theory is for you all to argue. im just interested in application at the high school level - not physics equations.

I agree that most good hitters have strong hands. I don't think these hitters are good because they have strong hands. I believe they have strong hands because they are good hitters. The body is creating a huge amount of momentum, and the hands have to be able to hold on during the ride.

scout

I've read that Olerud is/was a slow runner. Good heady baserunner, but slow. I've also read that his batspeed is subpar for mlb players.

I deducted his athletic ability is less than most mlb players.

Athletic ability to me means, strength, speed, explosiveness.

If I'm wrong, set me straight.

I would say he's very high on the skill list. Very skilled both defensively and offensively. Great firstbaseman. Very good swing.

I deduct his skills took him much further than most with equivalent athletic ability.

Linear,

Hand/eye coordination is also an athletic ability.

Perhaps as important as any other. IMO.

quote:

IMO - The stronger the hands/wrists/arms - the better off you will be.

Probably more true if you can hook the hand path than in the preswing action.

Also important when you break down somewhere in the swing and are making something happen after your fooled

Swing,

When someone is throwing 90-95 mph moving fastballs - or mid 80's sliders at you - or even good changes - you are going to be fooled alot IMO.

If you dont have strong hands/wrists/arms - and good hand/eye coordination - you are in big trouble.

The only exception - unfortunately - is if you are swinging a $300 aluminum rocket launcher. If that is the case - you can be weak - be fooled and still get the ball out of the infield.

BTW - Happy New Year.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:

...you are going to be fooled alot IMO.

Define alot.

quote:

But, the reality is, if we debated, you'd get knocked out.

So, rather than bloody your pretty face, I'm going to cut you some slack.

I dont think so but when ever you want to take that step and grab some testicular fortitude just let me know and I will be more than willing to debate with you.

quote:

I'm just guessing but you may be able to debate Miranda rights.

In your case, I probably would but you wouldn't get what they mean so I would just give you a card that had them on there and let you take it to ***** and have him translate it for you since you can't do anything by yourself. Oh, I tried to go to the website of this guru in hitting but it isn't up and running..... hmmmm makes you wonder about the fraud issue.

Swingbuster, Itsinthegame, I think we all think very much alike when it comes to hitting. Linear wants to promote load ... All good and well. I agree to a large extent. Then he wants to exclude hands and arms. Easy for him, he doesn't have that product he has to produce in the end which is a successful program. Does a typical team get one or two athletes that would naturally do as Linear (...) wants regardless of whether you discuss hands? Sure! However, you have to put 6,7,8,& 9 out there. Getting them to be productive simpy isn't that easy. Top hand and bottom hand work has to be initiated to get them repetitions of what needs to be done to shorten their swings, have a better swing path and to understand simply getting the bat to the ball. Linear, since he constantly and consistently states that he doesn't (teach) anything regarding the hands then denies the benefits of these drills.

To get off subject but to put my 2 cents in on one other issue. I've had several communications with Bluedog. While he agrees with Linear consistently (as I often do), I firmly believe he is actually in the coaching profession. I think many dispute that. As we all know, you don't have to be in the coaching profession to know more about baseball than a coach but knowing and doing are two different things and when some one is actively doing then they see our arguments from a different perspective. JMHO!

Linear,

Alot to me means frequently. (Please dont ask me to define that - LOL)

Some days are better than others - based on the quality of pitching you face.

When my boys initiate discussions with me about their at bats after a game - it is usually the first thing we talk about. What were they looking for - and what did they get. On good days - there arent many misses. On bad days - there are several (general example: 4 at bats - 20 pitches - and at least 5 toughies).

It is very similar to my own experience playing. I guess if you are a MLB player - you dont miss as frequently - but I wouldnt know that.

Linear,

Just adding to the athletic ability discussion.

When I talk about hand/eye coordination - I take that to mean the direction and quickness at which your hand/arms/shoulders anticipate and react to what you see.

In just about any sport I can think of - if this "coordination" isnt sharp - you probably will not last long - and in certain sports - you will most likely be carried off the field on a stretcher - regardless of how fast or strong you are.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Linear, When hanging with my pals, I get into arguments about "what is an athlete"? Most of my friends think it is running speed and jumping, so they go for some football players and most of the basketball players. I go for the best baseball players, that have to hit, run, throw, field and react to 95mph fastballs.

John Olerud has everything except running speed. He is a world class hitter, fielder and thrower. He has been the best since he was a boy.His last year at Washington State was the best season in the history of D1 baseball. He hit .464 with 21 home runs, but the amazing thing was that he went 15-0 on the mound too and was named college player of the year.He went from college, straight to the Major Leagues. They did not send him to the minor leagues which happens about once every 15 years.

I just feel that John Olerud has tremendous ability and is a great athlete.

On the other hand, I had the chance to watch one of the worlds greatest athletes play 3 baseball games in the Arizona Fall League about ten years ago and if you did not know before hand that it was Michael Jordan, you would never go to the game and say, "hey, the guy in LF sure is a good athlete". He threw like a girl and the only thing he did pretty well was run, and going down the line, he was 4.3 which is just average major league speed. To put it bluntly, he was very awkward and that is about the time I started changing my thoughts on what "athletic ability" was.

I don't disagree with anything you say except your conclusion.

It definately takes a "baseball guy" to define athletic ability like you do.

What Olerud has is great skills. And his skills have outrun his athletic ability. His athletic ability, while I'm sure greater than mine, is very average, probably less than average, when comparing him to professional athletes.

BTW, I've read it, I've heard others say it, I've said it. Is it true? Is his batspeed subpar for mlb players? Or do you know?

His bat quickness has to rank with the high ones though.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
... Does a typical team get one or two athletes that would naturally do as Linear (...) wants regardless of whether you discuss hands? Sure! However, you have to put 6,7,8,& 9 out there. Getting them to be productive simpy isn't that easy. Top hand and bottom hand work has to be initiated to get them repetitions of what needs to be done to shorten their swings, have a better swing path and to understand simply getting the bat to the ball.

Not only do I deny the benefits of top hand and bottom hand drills, you are an obstructionist, IMHO, by taking those who will be your #6, #7, #8 and #9 hitters and teach them the "benefits of the hands".

What they need MORE than anyone is an understanding of the center, carrying it forward, loading and unloading. AND, it is much easier to teach with a much quicker "learn time" than any and all the hand drills you teach.

It is a fact, plain and simple, whether you or any other 1st rungers agree, that the only map to better swing quickness comes from the center. NOT THE HANDS. And better swing quickness is the "fix" for #6, #7, #8 and #9.

Go ahead, build your hand strength. I've never said strong hands don't help. I did say strong hands have nothing to do with the execution of a high level swing against high level pitching.