College Athletes & Grades

Lionbaseball, true. I wonder if they actually attend classes but have easy graders and work done for them or they have phantom classes like at UNC a couple of years ago. I remember even STANFORD, of all places, had an "easy class list" one of the classes were "North American dances part 2"

Yea - but North American Dances Part 1 is a pre-requisite and that one's really tough.  I think instead of approaching this from a blanket statement, perhaps some folks might consider an individual "student=athlete" who possesses exceptional athletic ability, but has a deficiencies in his educational background.  Assume this kid is either a football or basketball player (i.e. helps foot the bills) - do you think many Power 5 teams are really going to suggest true remedial work - throughout the process - such that eligibility might be delayed a year?  I think some kids who are wholly unprepared and are not provided appropriate resources (things like remedial reading skills to improve reading level) may still benefit from the overall process.  But, consider the mid-level player (good enough to start Power 5 but maybe not quite good enough to go pro) who get injured their junior/senior year.  While many universities have programs to assist motivated kids when this happens, is the institution really going to go out of its way to convince some unmotivated kid - who still has a long uphill road as it relates to acedemics - that they ought to stick it out?  Might anyone believe that some poorly equipped kid becomes dispensable once they are no longer able to contribute athletically?  The "easy" classes/majors are just one way for an institution to manage the academically unmotivated kid (and I am not throwing stones at these kids - my kid is current not academically motivated but hoping that changes soon).

Besides, didn't I hear that Johnny Manziel completed his final semester's required 12 hours via online courses?  Would love to see that schedule.  Can you take dance classes online?

TPM posted:

Hope this works.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/reso...rate-continues-climb

College athletes graduate at a rate of 86%. Only 37 colleges (at any level) have an 86% graduation rate for all students. 

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Lionbaseball, true. I wonder if they actually attend classes but have easy graders and work done for them or they have phantom classes like at UNC a couple of years ago. I remember even STANFORD, of all places, had an "easy class list" one of the classes were "North American dances part 2"

Yea - but North American Dances Part 1 is a pre-requisite and that one's really tough.  I think instead of approaching this from a blanket statement, perhaps some folks might consider an individual "student=athlete" who possesses exceptional athletic ability, but has a deficiencies in his educational background.  Assume this kid is either a football or basketball player (i.e. helps foot the bills) - do you think many Power 5 teams are really going to suggest true remedial work - throughout the process - such that eligibility might be delayed a year?  I think some kids who are wholly unprepared and are not provided appropriate resources (things like remedial reading skills to improve reading level) may still benefit from the overall process.  But, consider the mid-level player (good enough to start Power 5 but maybe not quite good enough to go pro) who get injured their junior/senior year.  While many universities have programs to assist motivated kids when this happens, is the institution really going to go out of its way to convince some unmotivated kid - who still has a long uphill road as it relates to acedemics - that they ought to stick it out?  Might anyone believe that some poorly equipped kid becomes dispensable once they are no longer able to contribute athletically?  The "easy" classes/majors are just one way for an institution to manage the academically unmotivated kid (and I am not throwing stones at these kids - my kid is current not academically motivated but hoping that changes soon).

Besides, didn't I hear that Johnny Manziel completed his final semester's required 12 hours via online courses?  Would love to see that schedule.  Can you take dance classes online?

 

First, I want you to know you're agreeing with the board bigot. Second it's never hard to tell who hasn't been there and done it or never came across the information.

College athletes are not allowed to just take the easiest courses without any regard towards a degree. Yes, they can take easier majors and easy elective courses. But they have to be working towards a degree. Teams have academic advisors to make sure this is happening. 

The NCAA has an annual APR (Academic Profress Rate) calculation for every team. Someone mentioned UConn. They didn't meet APR one year. They lost scholarships and the right to participate in the NCAA tournament.

Yes, there are early draft applicants who skip courses in the spring. Some of them never wanted to be students. But for a majority blame the NFL and NBA. As soon as the football and basketball player's season is over there is a lot of pressure to be at peak physical and athletic performance for their combines. Not being so could cost a players hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions. 

The problem with one and done is these basketball players don't want to be at college. They take an intro course towards their major and three of the easiest courses they can find. In the spring they don't go to classes. As soon as the season is over they go into training for NBA combines. Blame the college and the NBA, not the athlete. 

These are the athletes you hear about in the paper. For every one of them that make the news there are many more athletes who go back to school and graduate. Do you think an NBA player I referenced making 6 mil a year needs to go back to college? He's also the son of a wealthy former NBA player and currently successful businessman. His mother stuck her finger in his face and ordered him to graduate. I'm sure he would have done it anyway. His father also went back and graduated. Had you heard of John Urschel before I mentioned him?

College football and basketball players make news by breaking the law. It sells newspapers. It reinforces white people to say, "See, I told you so about those people."

In the case of Manziel he needs some serious help. He's in the denial stage of addition. He thinks he can handle alcohol and drugs in moderation. He's wrong. The problem is he's always been catered to. I wonder how often his tracks have been covered in his life. He needs to wake up. Teams and agents consider him toxic. If Drew Rosenhaus drops you it's hard to go lower in the barrel for an agent.

College athletes are not allowed to just take the easiest courses without any regard towards a degree. Yes, they can take easier majors and easy elective courses. But they have to be working towards a degree. Teams have academic advisors to make sure this is happening. 

OK - they cannot completely ignore degree progress over the course of a few years but as you say a) they can take (or be told to take) the easier majors and b) take (or again be told to take) easy elective courses.  If you don't think some of the major programs have severe doubts about certain individuals academic success, they you are simply wrong.  High schools sometimes graduate these type kids when they really are not performing at a high school level.  Major colleges have very special programs which work to get these kids eligible (I forget what the big priate school is that is basically an NCAA eligibility mill) and keep them eligible.  The UNC scandal sheds some light on this.  I'm not saying the majority of student-athletes are not students first - I'm saying there are kids truly getting taken advantage of - at the individual level - as there "four year ride" sometimes ends up with a bruised body and no degree.  It happens - am not trying to provide figures, but no one should think such an outcome never occurs.

As for aligning with the board bigot, I assume most of my blame lies at the feet of white administrators.  No idea what could be done or what should be done when a athletically gifted kid gets shuffled through high school, but, similar to the idea of paying these kids, I think eligibility rules need to have room for kids with academic weaknesses as long as the college program demonstrates that they are actually addressing these weaknesses - instead of glossing over best they can by crafting a modern day major in underwater basket weaving.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

College athletes are not allowed to just take the easiest courses without any regard towards a degree. Yes, they can take easier majors and easy elective courses. But they have to be working towards a degree. Teams have academic advisors to make sure this is happening. 

OK - they cannot completely ignore degree progress over the course of a few years but as you say a) they can take (or be told to take) the easier majors and b) take (or again be told to take) easy elective courses.  If you don't think some of the major programs have severe doubts about certain individuals academic success, they you are simply wrong.  High schools sometimes graduate these type kids when they really are not performing at a high school level.  Major colleges have very special programs which work to get these kids eligible (I forget what the big priate school is that is basically an NCAA eligibility mill) and keep them eligible.  The UNC scandal sheds some light on this.  I'm not saying the majority of student-athletes are not students first - I'm saying there are kids truly getting taken advantage of - at the individual level - as there "four year ride" sometimes ends up with a bruised body and no degree.  It happens - am not trying to provide figures, but no one should think such an outcome never occurs.

As for aligning with the board bigot, I assume most of my blame lies at the feet of white administrators.  No idea what could be done or what should be done when a athletically gifted kid gets shuffled through high school, but, similar to the idea of paying these kids, I think eligibility rules need to have room for kids with academic weaknesses as long as the college program demonstrates that they are actually addressing these weaknesses - instead of glossing over best they can by crafting a modern day major in underwater basket weaving.

Have you ever tried underwater basket weaving?  That crap is hard to do!

Regarding easy courses and majors. It's not uncommon for even the smartest students to take easier courses in season. Our athletic department gave us a list of easy courses, pro athlete professors and anti athlete professors to stay away from. I wasn't some dumb jock. I majored in Econ with a concentration in Quantitative Analytics. Every elective I took was the easiest course available that semester.  We even had names for the courses. Geology 101 was Rocks for Jocks. Theology 101 was Praying for A's. Any Poly ScI course taught by a communist, anti war professor was a B for showing up and an A for competent work. We also had Coaching (pick your sport) 101.

However easy courses and majors is relative. Anything math was relatively easy for me. People think being a Phys Ed major is easy? Take a look at a keneisiology book. I'd never make it through the course. 

In order to compete in the NCAA a prospective student must meet a minimum SAT score. I'm not sure what it is anymore. I believe it may be a sliding score based on GPA now. A dumb kid isn't going to pass. He's going to attend a JuCo. From there he will prove if he has the academic ability to make it in the classroom at an NCAA school.

What I'm explaining is the norm. Sure there are programs and players who try to beat the rules. But it's not the norm.

Dont assume just because a kid is from the ghetto and talks funny (to your ear) he can't cut it in the classroom. One of my best friends and college teammate's was from the ghetto in West Memphis. He was one of nine children. His mother was 14 when he was born. Do you think a ghetto kid from the South is going to sound normal to my ear? 

He was the first in the history of his family to not drop out of high school. He was the school valedictorian. He joked it's like being the top skier from Florida. By the time he played four years of baseball he was one semester short of a M.A.. He went to school year round rather than go home. 

I asked him what motivated him. He said he saw things on tv he wanted. He explained there are two ways to get them. Steal them or get an education, a job and buy them.

I sat with some people who are involved in the athletic program yesterday at a game and told the about this topic.

From what I gather, expectations are different for some players than others.  It will take more than 4 years for many to graduate, but if more programs had programs that assist the student athlete after their eligibility is up, they would graduate.  There are some big conference programs that have these programs in place,  and have to for the APR and grad ratings.

What's so funny about easier classes? My son took easier classes, so did a lot of other baseball players whose parents post here.

I am just waiting for the day some of your kids go off to school to play baseball and you see them struggle.You might remember making fun.

Then you might truly understand what it's all about.

Stop trying to paint me as a racist or a bigot. I'm saying the obvious: SOME COLLEGE ATHLETES GET SPECIAL TREATMENT. For example, if the star QB at USC had a game the day of a test you think he's gonna say "sorry guys I can't play today I got a test" NO! Football and basketball create $$$ for colleges and the better the programs are the more money the college makes. So if Johnny Manziel wasn't making academic eligibility requirements you think A&M would bench him!? No! He brought so much money to that college. Also check out deadspin, they have a few article on the FSU Football program. On was written 6 months ago about how a former FSU official testified that over 40 football players that were investigated on assualt and domestic violence and they got special treatment. If you think that they tolerate domestic violence and not skipping class you're delusional. Reminder, this is FSU the great football team that won a National Championship in 2013 and made the CFP in 2014. Bottom line is this, Better atheltic programs= better revenue for the school. Also, I think easier classes are great for athletes they should be focused on athletics if that's what they came there for. 

Baseball33 posted:

Stop trying to paint me as a racist or a bigot. I'm saying the obvious: SOME COLLEGE ATHLETES GET SPECIAL TREATMENT. For example, if the star QB at USC had a game the day of a test you think he's gonna say "sorry guys I can't play today I got a test" NO! Football and basketball create $$$ for colleges and the better the programs are the more money the college makes. So if Johnny Manziel wasn't making academic eligibility requirements you think A&M would bench him!? No! He brought so much money to that college. Also check out deadspin, they have a few article on the FSU Football program. On was written 6 months ago about how a former FSU official testified that over 40 football players that were investigated on assualt and domestic violence and they got special treatment. If you think that they tolerate domestic violence and not skipping class you're delusional. Reminder, this is FSU the great football team that won a National Championship in 2013 and made the CFP in 2014. Bottom line is this, Better atheltic programs= better revenue for the school. Also, I think easier classes are great for athletes they should be focused on athletics if that's what they came there for. 

No one said they didnt get special treatment. They should, they help make millions of dollars for their programs and bowl riches build new facilities and bring in new recruits. So its my opinion that they should not only get full scholarships but a very large stipend as well.  

I dont read deadspin because 90% of it is bs.

For the record you and Ernie turned this topic into a new direction, and yes you made unnecessay references about individuals.

Since I may have aided in getting this post off track, I am ready to get it back on track as I am very interested in the particulars of how a college player manages.  As I remember college, you could choose between MWF and TuTh classes.  I understand that they expect the player to plan classes for the morning and I assume that includes some MWF classes during both semesters.  In the fall, I assume having to miss a class is infrequent and there is little if any weekend travel.  As you move into the spring, hopefully you can lighten the load and take fewer classes (perhaps only 4 preferably 5).  Travel starts up to include some long weekends (possibly leaving Thursday night - assume getting back late Sunday or even early hours Monday) along with some mid-week out of town games.  Towards the end of the season, exams start and scheduling becomes increasing important.

My couple of questions that I seem to get conflicting answers on are as follows:  Should you try to squeeze in hours/classes during the summer (including the summer before freshman year) to get ahead of the curve?  Has technology benefited physical absence from the classroom?  Can you take online courses which count towards the 12 hour semester minimum for eligibility?

In rereading the OP, I was wondering if the kid is overwhelmed by baseball taking time away from everything, and not just academics.  Honestly, my son won't complain about too little classroom time.  I'm hoping at some point he complains about the workload and possible scheduling conflicts (can't take a required course a particular semester due to baseball conflict), but first/second semester I'm hoping he simply survives.  I'm not saying it would be a cake walk without baseball (lots of kids simply wash out due to too much time on their hands) so I'm hoping the intensely structured environment might actually benefit him.  

2016 is/has to start school summer before frosh yr.In fact he will be gone after @ 6-25.(along with the other hopefull BB frosh.) Gets 2 weeks off sometime in late aug.? then back to school till ???  Of ALL the things I have thought better know this.Hey 2016 better check this out.Theres one thing that in a million yrs. never crossed my mind.2016 sister.Shes his Jr. by 3 yrs 2 grades.Once he said end of june hes gone.I can see the angst on her face to the point I can tell its building and she is going to cry.2016 going off to school hasn't been a secret.I kinda think with her its been going on for so long that him leaving was always in the future somewhere.Well the future is 6*7 weeks away. Who would've thought?

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Since I may have aided in getting this post off track, I am ready to get it back on track as I am very interested in the particulars of how a college player manages.  As I remember college, you could choose between MWF and TuTh classes.  I understand that they expect the player to plan classes for the morning and I assume that includes some MWF classes during both semesters.  In the fall, I assume having to miss a class is infrequent and there is little if any weekend travel.  As you move into the spring, hopefully you can lighten the load and take fewer classes (perhaps only 4 preferably 5).  Travel starts up to include some long weekends (possibly leaving Thursday night - assume getting back late Sunday or even early hours Monday) along with some mid-week out of town games.  Towards the end of the season, exams start and scheduling becomes increasing important.

My couple of questions that I seem to get conflicting answers on are as follows:  Should you try to squeeze in hours/classes during the summer (including the summer before freshman year) to get ahead of the curve?  Has technology benefited physical absence from the classroom?  Can you take online courses which count towards the 12 hour semester minimum for eligibility?

In rereading the OP, I was wondering if the kid is overwhelmed by baseball taking time away from everything, and not just academics.  Honestly, my son won't complain about too little classroom time.  I'm hoping at some point he complains about the workload and possible scheduling conflicts (can't take a required course a particular semester due to baseball conflict), but first/second semester I'm hoping he simply survives.  I'm not saying it would be a cake walk without baseball (lots of kids simply wash out due to too much time on their hands) so I'm hoping the intensely structured environment might actually benefit him.  

I am not sure what they do at the D-I, DII, or DIII level, but in JC Baseball they travel in the fall several weekends too.

The NCAA, no matter what division, wants the student athlete to graduate, and to do so on time.  During the recruiting process, this should be discussed not only with the coach, but with any advisor that the student athlete  will report to.  I feel that this is seldom overlooked by many.

As a D1 athlete my son was required to take 18 credits fall and spring semester. These days many are encouraged to begin classes in the summer.  Also, things are different for programs with 3 or 4 semesters per calender year.

You dont plan your classes on your own. You have an advisor who works closely with you to make sure that you are taking what is required for your major, and to help schedule around the schedule that the coach has made for practice.  And of course your spring travel schedule will determine your classes.  

If you have a class and you have to miss, permission has to be awarded in advance.  My son needed permission to miss classes last fall, even as a senior.

As far as D1 on line classes are available, but usually you may not take them your first year.  This may be different for some schools, but I dont think so.

Remember that the school is responsible for you to stay on task.  If you need 132 credits to graduate on time, 12 isnt going to cut it, and remember, another semester is more money needed to spend.

I am more D1 orientated so that is the basis formy answer.

One thing that i do know, at sons program and university, if you continually miss class you will lose your opportunity to play any sport.

Here is my son's experience for class load, timing etc. When he first signed up for classes in summer before freshman year for fall classes. there was a big block 1pm-6pm- Baseball that he was not supposed to schedule classes. He ended up with one night class (6:15pm-9:15 or something like that), 4 classes somewhere between 8am-noon throughout the week and one online class for a 6 classes (18 hours, I think). During the fall. he had lifting 3-4 days a week before his first class, then class, practice times 1-6pm. His practices were staggered but basically 2 - 2 1/2 hours a day. Included in that 1-6pm was mandatory study table 10 hours a week.

For spring he had 5 classes, one evening on Monday 6:15pm - 9:15pm, 2 classes Tuesday Thursday between 8am-noon and 2 online classes. Online classes are like any other class and count towards your hours. Generally for away games on weekends. They left around 1pm on Thursdays. He was still required to get his 10 hours mandatory study table a week in. For mid week games, if you weren't playing for sure, you don't go if you are going to miss class. . So weekend starting pitchers, and whomever else coach decides don't go. Last year my son was the mid week starting pitcher, so he went to them. 

This year is much the same. He is hurt and out for season but gets to go if it does not mean he will miss class. 

He has two teammates who are taking majors that require internships (they are both going to be teachers). So they miss anything mid week and then make up there baseball work in evening from what I am told. Both are relievers in there senior season.

On a side note, I love that mandatory study table is required. Every college he visited said they did that for freshmen. He is a good student but had never had to work at grades, study tables forced him to be organized for academics and gave specific time for it. Truly as a parent of 3 current or former college students and only one of them an athlete. I wish they did that for all freshman. He was much more organized with his studies than my other 2 and I attribute a part of that to study tables.

All D1 first year freshman are required to attend 10 hours of study hall a week, first semester.  After that its up to the coach depending on your GPA.

I am a firm believer that all players on any given roster should be in attendance for all games. It makes for team unity and chemistry.  

JMO

TPM, I agree about being in attendance to all games. Generally son's team that is way it works unless they have a class and definitely not playing. Only ones that are definite are SP for weekends, those that are out medically, and those that do not travel in general. They are all at home games even those that do not travel. Usually for those few it is about when they have to leave.

I like how our coach does that, in that class first if no way they are playing. That might be 1-2 players for 5-6 games a year

fanofgame posted:

Also stop with the bashing of types of degrees. My son got liberal arts degree for several reasons. Yes its tough in the job market but he didnt nor does he want to be a dr or engineer(not knocking either of those or any degree) My own son wanted a business degree but coming ftom a jc after one year and being at a private school and requirements were different he could not finish in four years. Being on athletic money had to finish in four years. 

The constant cuts on so called easy degrees really bugs me. For some kids thats what they can do with baseball on top of it  dont assume theyare lazy or not as smart. 

FanofGame,

Accepting your point that we shouldn't criticize broad categories of degrees, we should also acknowledge that:

--There are degrees that do not tell prospective employers that graduates are prepared to contribute to a business.

--There are fields of study that produce far more graduates than their related occupational fields can absorb.

--There are degrees that do not become marketable until they are combined with a follow-on graduate or professional program.

--Many college graduates are trapped in jobs whose pay is too low to service the debt on the degrees that didn't help them land better jobs.

Athletes do need to be warned that not all degrees will help them get started in careers, even with the brand name of a good school at the top of the transcript.

If I was bashing degrees, then it was directed at the program itself, not individual student-athletes making thoughtful decisions on what degree to pursue.  There seem to be some degree programs (think UNC) that survive only to cater to athletes who don't know any better and are pressured, I mean advised, to pursue these degrees due to the ability to maintain eligibility for the foreseeable future (i.e. next season) so the coaches can keep their jobs.  Again, this is largely related to D1 money sports at institutions - or segments thereof - which place more emphasis on the athlete and less on the student.  I personally think playing college baseball will add marketability to any degree with the possible exception of some really technical fields.  I also think it can add a level of maturity that will help during the initial years out in the workforce.  I'm not bashing degree choice, I'm bashing a degree path being rubber stamped for some unprepared kid who might not know any better.

Am looking forward to some of the NCAA D1 eligibility standards getting ready to go into effect.  On the football and basketball side, there may be some players who no longer get eligible through "diploma mills" as the rules will no longer allow for a massive retake of D/F courses during the final year, the final summer, or even online over Christmas.  Hopefully this sinks in and pushes those kids to engage in school a little sooner and be better prepared once they show up on campus (and maybe make their own choice on the degree path).  Have seen several major D1 recruits who are signing NLI's for both the D1 program as well as some JUCO program as a backup as they come down to the wire on academic eligibility.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

If I was bashing degrees, then it was directed at the program itself, not individual student-athletes making thoughtful decisions on what degree to pursue.  There seem to be some degree programs (think UNC) that survive only to cater to athletes who don't know any better and are pressured, I mean advised, to pursue these degrees due to the ability to maintain eligibility for the foreseeable future (i.e. next season) so the coaches can keep their jobs.  Again, this is largely related to D1 money sports at institutions - or segments thereof - which place more emphasis on the athlete and less on the student.  I personally think playing college baseball will add marketability to any degree with the possible exception of some really technical fields.  I also think it can add a level of maturity that will help during the initial years out in the workforce.  I'm not bashing degree choice, I'm bashing a degree path being rubber stamped for some unprepared kid who might not know any better.

Am looking forward to some of the NCAA D1 eligibility standards getting ready to go into effect.  On the football and basketball side, there may be some players who no longer get eligible through "diploma mills" as the rules will no longer allow for a massive retake of D/F courses during the final year, the final summer, or even online over Christmas.  Hopefully this sinks in and pushes those kids to engage in school a little sooner and be better prepared once they show up on campus (and maybe make their own choice on the degree path).  Have seen several major D1 recruits who are signing NLI's for both the D1 program as well as some JUCO program as a backup as they come down to the wire on academic eligibility.

I don't get your point.  JMO but I feel that most student athletes come unprepared. That's why they have support systems in place. 

 This doesn't just apply to "those" students that were referred to.

Let's see someday when your kids probably bit off more than they can chew, it you understand it better.

Two comments

while I agree w team building I still believe any bench player who is having serious grade issue should stay behind on some of the away trips, which can be two days of missing classes, to work on getting grades up. If it were my son I would be for that. Players need to know that school/grades r important and coach means business. 

Ive seen at sons school where several players have changed majors due to baseball. Maybe they are young and never had passion for first major, but some are not willing to put in extra study time w baseball schedule. They are switching to majors they perceive are "easier".  They all see academic advisors who spell out just what classes are needed, and some are realizing college is harder than HS.  Nationally many students are not prepared for college and must take remedial courses. Guess it depends on how academic your HS was. 

fanofgame posted:

I think there are some on this board that look down on certain degrees and I think its rude. 

It's not the degree. It's the overall course of study and what it says about how the applicant used his or her time on campus to prepare for life as an adult.

Anybody who strove for excellence in anything can be a viable candidate for an entry level position. Playing a sport all the way through college checks this box for me.

My rule of thumb is that the less obviously practical a person's major, the more I expect to see either excellence within that major or conscious effort to take practical courses outside of the major. 

Just having a degree--even a degree from a good school--doesn't count for much.

When I encounter a college transcript with an undistinguished record in a humanities or social science major and no courses in statistics, computer science, or anything business related, I regretfully conclude that the young person is not prepared for a grown-up job.

I especially feel that way when the applicants didn't immerse themselves in their chosen liberal arts major.

I received a resume from an English major with a degree from a well respected school. English majors usually have an aptitude for writing and a basic understanding of grammar, so I can turn them into useful employees as fast as I can train them to lose their academic jargon, passive voice, and empty extra words.

However, this particular English major caught my eye because he never took a course in Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, or the Victorian novel. And he didn't excel in the random courses he took on gender issues in modern drama and postmodern textual criticism. An English major with a so-so GPA who didn't take any practical courses outside his major, avoided the hard courses in his major, and can't sustain a conversation about the most important figures in his chosen course of study presents himself as someone who hasn't learned how to apply himself or work hard.

I'm sorry if you think it's rude of me to say so, but this gentleman has a worthless degree that he is still paying for on the installment plan. Despite the brand name on his diploma, he is unemployable and he is also unqualified for graduate study in his field.

I don't have anything against liberal arts degrees. In the past two years, I have hired an English major, a history major, a theology grad student, and a fine arts major.

But in every case, they excelled in their major and they took courses outside their major to prepare for their eventual job search.

I don't think it's rude to tell prospective college students that employers will care about what they take and how well they do.

One of my sons took a very sound approach-he loaded up on the hours in the fall, took an on line class in the summer, and normally carried only 12 hours during the spring semester. He graduated in 4 years with an excellent GPA. It can be done but it takes a lot of time management and that's where a lot of players fall down. You can have your fun to be sure, but time management is critical to succeeding academically.

There are plenty of degrees that in Latin mean, "Now I have to go to grad school." Even some practical degrees requires a masters for the better jobs and decent pay.

When I came out of college companies like IBM, Burroughs, NCR, Xeroox, etc. were big interviews. In the campus cattle calls (first interview) the first aurstion was "what's your major?" It had to be business or math related or sayonara. The second question was gpa. It had to be at least a 3.0.

i told my kids a 3.0 is the average grade in college now. If they want to stand out they need a 3.5 or better. They both did it. My daughter had to work at a prestigious law firm for two years and build contacts to get accepted to an Ivy law school. Ivies look down their noses at most southern educations.

Wow Swampboy, u can tell someone is unemployable by looking at his resume. Maybe he's a wrong fit for a certain job after being interviewed  where specific ques are asked.  Some of the most gifted kids in class are the ones who only score so-so on tests. Let's hold judgement untill more  info is known.

maybe he wants to go into another field w grad degree. Many law students are English majors. Who knows this young mans real story. 

Switching degrees is tough, you can lose credits and that puts you behind in graduating.

RJM posted:

You will probably find the athletic numbers you present closely resemble regular student population numbers. More than 50% of the students in the Cal State system are taking remedial courses. The graduation rate at UMass Boston is about 15%. The issue isn't athletics. The overall student population graduation rate is about 55%.

 

The issue is the shambles the American education system has become. It's also ignorant and racist to insinuate football and basketball are black and stupid.

Go Trump! Right?

Ummmmmm...I think you are the only one so far injecting race into the picture.  

White guilt much?  (there I threw in race.) 

My older son and I visited a D2 college in Arkansas back in 2007.   After visiting the campus, talking to some of the professors, my son went to talk to one of the asst football coaches as he was interested in walking on.  (My son was 6'-1 190 at the time).   The asst coach said, after hearing my son was going to major in Math or Biology, that most of the players don't take hard classes and he would recommend against it.  This was after he learned my son scored a 33 on the ACT and had a 4.0 GPA.  Oh yea, RJM, my son is white if that helps.  

I haven't been on the site for a while for various reasons and I haven't read all the subsequent comments but I will throw my 2 cents in.

College is hard for most. It is completely different than HS. My son was graduated in top 25-30 out of 500 or so. Had a high GPA. Scored well on Math-ACT, English-not so much.  But he didn't know how to study. Never had to study much in HS.

I never realized how time consuming playing college baseball is. I had pictured it, incorrectly, as maybe getting to the field before 7AM daily and doing something for 1-3 hrs and then going to class/study, etc. Nope, a player may have to be at the field 2-3 different times each day.  Classes are not all consecutive and together. They are broken up. My son's time management skills were/are horrendous. Mine at that age probably were too. When I was in college, I started my college classes at 8 every day and was finished by noon except for labs.  It is different now.

Son's coaches though do stay on top of their players. His academic advisor does too.  HC reamed my son a new one last December because his grades for his Freshman Fall semester were not where they should be.  He was at 2.75 or so.  Thankful for the Summer classes which kept the GPA above 3.00.  Although grades are important to coaches, baseball is too. They expect both from their athletes. My son changed his major from Mechanical Engineering to Pre-Law (one day) and is now in Pre-Med. Who knows where he will end up. I just want him to have core courses taken so he doesn't have to take extra hours but we will see.

He drove home last night, finished for the semester. He will end up with a 3.00 or 3.25 for the Spring so he will have an overall Freshman GPA of slightly above 3.00.  That's not what I wanted or expected but looking back, I probably expected too much. He says that he learned late in the Spring semester how to study (we will see).  But it has got to be his choice.

My wife and loved seeing him late last night. His idea of packing is to throw everything in garbage sacks. His truck was crammed full including the futon that his GF was discarding that he drove 8 hours home with in the back....

PS: My daughter on the other hand is not an athlete but is graduating after 5 years from Texas A&M next Saturday with her Masters in Accounting, Emphasis in Tax (and 4.0 GPA in her Master courses). She has qualities he doesn't have and likewise, he has some she doesn't.   WHOOP!!!

playball2011 posted:

Wow Swampboy, u can tell someone is unemployable by looking at his resume. Maybe he's a wrong fit for a certain job after being interviewed  where specific ques are asked.  Some of the most gifted kids in class are the ones who only score so-so on tests. Let's hold judgement untill more  info is known.

maybe he wants to go into another field w grad degree. Many law students are English majors. Who knows this young mans real story. 

Well, yes. I was once in charge of hiring for a very large organization, and now I hire for the teams I supervise at a smaller organization. Having seen a couple thousand resumes from new college grads looking for their first "real" job after school, I can often distinguish quickly between the young people for whom college was about enjoying the experience and the ones who were there to work to prepare themselves for adult responsibilities and adult opportunities. 

Thanks for reminding me that many unemployed English majors enroll in law school and incur additional debt to gain credentials in a field that is even more difficult to get established in than academia. It does reinforce my point, and it is gracious of you to offer it.

fanofgame posted:

Well Thank God there are companies willing to train young grads and thank God others see things beyond a piece of paper.

Learning after college is something most students should continue to do to continue to improve their resumes along with job experience. 

 

Seriously, fanofgame, please refrain from the moral preening.

Yes, learning after college is a requirement. That's why it's important for people's college records to show that they've done it before.

What in the world do you want me to "see" "beyond" the pieces of paper they themselves submit to convince me they are willing to work and learn? Am I not allowed to read and evaluate the documents, or am I just supposed to rub my fingers over the embossed seals and be impressed by the name of the school?

The reputation of the college tells how successful they were in high school. The information on the transcript tells something about how hard they worked during college. Guess which is more relevant information?

When I'm sorting through a couple dozen resumes to fill a non-technical entry level job that barely pays enough for a young person to share an apartment in an expensive metro area, how much effort do you really expect me to expend to learn the life stories of all the applicants? 

fanofgame posted:

5. "Make sure you pick good people to build your business with, as they'll determine 80 percent of your success. The best people are honest and have lots of enthusiasm. Don't worry too much about their level of experience when you're interviewing, as the right attitude always delivers much more than just experience."

6. "I built the business exactly the way my mother built and ran her family. I wanted a replication of the big, happy family I grew up in. I wanted happy people having fun."

From Barb on shark tank

I think maybe there are people who think different 

 

The right attitude is the question here fanofgame, that's what Swampboy is saying.  The person with the right attitude would take advanced courses in what they wanted to do, not sit down with their advisors and plot out the simplest route to graduate.

When you hire people that take the easy way out of everything you don't have a happy workplace you have people that are waiting to throw other people under the bus and don't take responsibility for their own actions, or inactions, because these are also the "I'm going to stay in my box and only do what I am strictly told to do, I'm here for a check, nothing more."

Saying the board has changed based on the comments of one or two users seems like painting with too wide of a brush.

Sincerely,

An English Major

JCG posted:

Saying the board has changed based on the comments of one or two users seems like painting with too wide of a brush.

Sincerely,

An English Major

That right there just earned you an A+!

Marney, dont take it personal.  There have been good points made on both sides.

FWIW, my daughter turned her nose up to college. She has had some incredible opportunities. Right now she is an admin for VPs of a very large corporation.  She works with good people but she tells me so many are really not too happy. 

Whats important is that your son loves what he is doing. Everything else is BS.

Son will be graduating this saturday, getting one of those degrees that some may call useless. PRTM with business and finance.  He is still living his dream on the field. He is happy, in the end, thats whats important.  

Swampboy posted:

playball2011 posted:

Wow Swampboy, u can tell someone is unemployable by looking at his resume. Maybe he's a wrong fit for a certain job after being interviewed  where specific ques are asked.  Some of the most gifted kids in class are the ones who only score so-so on tests. Let's hold judgement untill more  info is known.

maybe he wants to go into another field w grad degree. Many law students are English majors. Who knows this young mans real story. 

Well, yes. I was once in charge of hiring for a very large organization, and now I hire for the teams I supervise at a smaller organization. Having seen a couple thousand resumes from new college grads looking for their first "real" job after school, I can often distinguish quickly between the young people for whom college was about enjoying the experience and the ones who were there to work to prepare themselves for adult responsibilities and adult opportunities. 

Thanks for reminding me that many unemployed English majors enroll in law school and incur additional debt to gain credentials in a field that is even more difficult to get established in than academia. It does reinforce my point, and it is gracious of you to offer it.

At the present time law school is considered a bad career choice unless attending the elite law schools or graduating at or near the top of the class in the law schools at the next level. The same currently applies to obtaining an MBA. Some undergraduate degrees require the student continue on to obtain an MA.

fanofgame posted:

5. "Make sure you pick good people to build your business with, as they'll determine 80 percent of your success. The best people are honest and have lots of enthusiasm. Don't worry too much about their level of experience when you're interviewing, as the right attitude always delivers much more than just experience."

6. "I built the business exactly the way my mother built and ran her family. I wanted a replication of the big, happy family I grew up in. I wanted happy people having fun."

From Barb on shark tank

I think maybe there are people who think different 

 I disagree with your thinking on this.

The reality is 20% of the employees will create 80% of the company's success. The rest will typically achieve mediocrity and eventually move on to another company where they will stand around the water cooler and complain rather than acheive. Our company had better percentages. But I stated the norm across the business world.

Please read the 9 rules from the Japanese History of the Samuari. It was the principle of conduct

for my 33 years in International baseball and business.

Bob