College Athletes & Grades

He should be attending a lot more than 25% of his classes. He should have all his classes in the morning. He should only be missing Friday classes during road trips. On Monday mornings after weekend road trips and weeknight away games he just has to have the discipline to get out of bed.

He is an athlete/student until Junior year, then "student athlete".

is he in Lubbock? Great city. Sam Jones (Boston Celtics) & my team played basketball at Texas Tech

Bob

Agree with RJM, it's all about discipline. There is a lot of valuable homework/study time on bus rides and in hotels when traveling. I am not in any way saying it's easy because it's not but with a 4.0 and playing D1 baseball he's already a high achiever.

Best of luck to your son in the classroom and on the field!

ilovebaseball posted:

Bob - I'm trying not to disclose his college - It may be Texas Tech (Lubbock), it may be not -- his team has been on the road for 10+ days at a time.  He's taking online courses as much as he can.  He attends his classes when he's in town. He's concerned about the time he's missing - and YES, he sits is the front rows when he's in town for classes.  Just looking for advise.

10+ days on the road is tough. Sounds like he's at a nothern/cold weather school. 

Maybe he can find a buddy in each class to help pass along information while he's traveling. 

I forgot to mention he's not on baseball scholarship, he's a walk-on.   

Why is a team on the road for ten days except spring break?

Many teams have tutors traveling and morning classes.

bob

That is why D3 is an excellent option for Student - Athletes. 

Is your concern that his grades are likely to suffer, or that he's not really learning ... or something else? 

My son will be in his shoes next fall. I don't know exactly how it will go, but in deciding on the school, part of what helped my son was the school's focus on academics. They do send tutors on the road, for example. 

So my expectation is that baseball will consume much more of his time, but that he will also learn, and -- assuming he applies himself -- get good grades.

The question you asked was "what should we say to him?"  I didn't read that he asked a question, but rather made a statement.   

Give him your support.  He is making a 4.0.  Tell him good job.  There was a post on here last year to tell your son on game day to "have fun, play well, I love you".  That about sums it up.

My son is at a very high academic school.  He is blessed that he didn't come in with a HS 4.9 gpa, because he doesn't expect to make those kind of grades now.   There was a suicide at his school the week before classes started his freshman year that shook up the community....I certainly didn't want to add to any pressure he may have felt at the time, nor do I now.  

I tell him to "just stay eligible".  He has done more than that, thank goodness, but they need to realize that college is tough, playing a sport makes it tougher, and freshman year is for feeling it all out and adjusting.  I try to stay out of it mostly, but have impressed upon him 1)  that he needs to graduate in 4 years, and 2) that he will need to make up the difference if he doesn't get the "good student discount' with our auto insurer. So far, better than good.

Is your son thinking about leaving the team as a starter in conference games?  He certainly won't be the first, but I bet there are several on the bench that are drooling to take his place. 

ilovebaseball posted:

I forgot to mention he's not on baseball scholarship, he's a walk-on.   

Maybe this is somewhat off topic, but as a starter in conference games, would it be reasonable for him to be put on scholarship next year? Seems like he's earned it.

ilovebaseball posted:

OK - seems I'm getting a little beat up here.  My son chose his school FIRST.  He had no desire to go to a D2, D3 or a  community college.  I am asking advise from fellow parents who may be in the same predicament.   

As it has for you, it was very eye opening when my son attended a high level D-1 school.  Fortunately, my son has always been very organized and received a lot of counseling helped in choosing the classes he needs at the right time.  By that I mean that the easier classes where taken during baseball seasons so that study time wasn't as demanding.  Also, the school had a great tutoring program and when on the road time was time for studying along with playing ball.  He never took any classes that required lab time.   Most of his professors were accommodating for him in getting information from the classes and getting any require work in on time.   Son was able to communicate well with the professors about his time schedule and worked they worked together to get through the classes.  

Time management and prioritizing has be a strong suite for my son which has paid of in many ways.  There was little I could do to help him as he had to work it all out on his own.  That was the hardest part as a parent and I feel son benefited from being quite a distance from us allowing him to mature as a young adult.

Well, I don't know if any of that helps.  But it wouldn't like your son is a very smart young man and like so many student/athletes, he'll figure out what he wants and what he can do on his own.  It helps when a parent just simply makes themselves available as someone who can just listen and empathize.  

ILOVEBASEBALL,

Thanks for posting.  For those of us who have already been through it there isn't much to say or do at this point.  He is playing high level D1 baseball and getting excellent grades.  What you may want to tell him is that you are available anytime to talk about anything on his mind.  You probably have already said that but it reinforces that he is an adult, and getting the job done without your help....you are there to listen.  Sometimes there may be other things weighing on his mind and he needs somebody to talk to other than his buddies, teammates, coaches or girlfriend.  In our younger parenting days, my wife and tried to help our kids solve problems.  Now, that we're older and she is wiser;  it is more about being there for them, listening to what is on their mind and then discussing it.  We defer actions to them.  I hope that helps with what is on your mind as well.

2019Dad posted:

ilovebaseball posted:

I forgot to mention he's not on baseball scholarship, he's a walk-on.   

Maybe this is somewhat off topic, but as a starter in conference games, would it be reasonable for him to be put on scholarship next year? Seems like he's earned it.

It's not a question of whether he has earned it.

From the coach's perspective, it makes no sense to assign scholarship money to a walk-on, regardless of how well the player has performed, because it spends more money without improving his team. If he has some spare scholarship money, he'd rather spend it on a new recruit who can take that walk-on's spot in the lineup.

The walk-on is already at the school and paying for his education through some combination of loans, need based money, academic merit money and family resources that the family has already proven they are willing to live with. Plus, the NCAA's transfer rules significantly limit the player's opportunity to market himself elsewhere.  What could possibly motivate the coach to change the status quo? Fairness? Right.

Some coaches do try to reward walk ons who prove themselves, but it's more common for walk-ons to live with whatever financial arrangements they made when they matriculated.

I agree with Fenway's approach.  My son is at a very high academic D1 and it is very, very difficult.  Although my son did very well in high school, he falls into the group that utilized baseball to help gain admission to a school he otherwise would not likely have gained admission to.  Now that he's there, reality has set in and he's working hard to do the very best he can.  Missing class is just part of the reality of their world, though he's not missing at nearly the rate I'm sure some others are.  We just try to support him.  Both of us as his parents as well as him do not expect he will match his HS academic performance and we are open about that.  He puts enough pressure on himself without Mom and Dad adding to it.  Every couple of weeks I ask him "how he's doing" and he knows that  I'm not asking about school, baseball or friends (female or otherwise) - rather I'm just checking in to make sure his outlook and mental state is staying positive.  Knowing that his parents support him and recognize that what he's doing is hard has been enough to keep him going so far.

ilovebaseball posted:

I'm needing some advice here - *don't get me wrong, he's happy he's able to play at this (D1) level - he's starting conference games!  I don't think he (or we as parents) knew the amount of time he'd be traveling and away from his studies.  He told me last weekend - "we're not student athletes, we're athletes that attend 25% of our classes".  He's a business major and has a 4.0 right now (I know, we should't complain) - looking for feedback as to your experience and what we should say to him. Right now, we're saying "we support you in whatever decision you want to make - grades and graduation come first".

Is it at all possible he was just venting?  Raising our kids we have grown accustom to them telling us things because they want us to "fix" it but really sometimes they are just venting. 

Maybe you should ask him if he would change anything.  I'm sure you raised him to fight his own battles and fix his own problems, is he considering this an actual problem? That would be my first question.

Is your son utilizing the resources available to him?  Its been a long time but I was once a college athlete (late 80s - track).  Our school has academic advisors specifically for athletes.  This is pretty common in most schools.  We were required to meet with them for our first year.  After that it was left up to the athlete (unless they were failing classes) to decide if they wanted to continue on with regular meetings.  The advisors were great with helping us figure out class load around our athletic schedule.  Most schools have athletic - academic advisors.

I know I would normally carry about 18 to 20 credits during the fall semester as we did not start competing until the spring semester.  This allowed me to drop my class load down to 12 credits during the season.  Which I believe is the NCAA in season minimum.  During the fall semester I would often have classes 5 days a week and at night as well.  It sucks when others are able to setup their schedules to ensure they don't have Friday classes, classes before 10am or after 3pm but its one of the sacrifices you need to make when your an athlete. 

In addition my advisor would work with me to figure out which were the easier/less "homework" classes and professors so I could heavily weigh my schedule with those classes during the spring semester.  I know track is a little different animal and there is more down time, but it was not unusual for kids to study on the bus, at the field, or in the hotel room.  Yes it was fun to be in a new city and head out before curfew to check out the area but many kids would stay back at the hotel to study.

From a social life perspective, it can be difficult as well.  For an athlete it needs to be the lowest of your priorities.  This can be difficult on kids as part of the college experience is the social life.  During the season there is very little room for a social life.  Again another sacrifice that is made by many of the athletes.  We pretty much hung out either after returning from a Saturday meet at 1 or 2 in the morning or on Sunday afternoon.  And then your friends are your teammates as they are the only other ones on your schedule.

Finally folks with kids heading into college to play a sport need to realize and prepare the child for the fact they now are "working" two full time jobs.  Classes for 12 to 16 hours a week, homework for those classes will eat up another 12 to 16 hours, making it a full time job.  Practices of 3 hours a day, plus weight room and training room for rehab equals about 20 hours of work a week.  Once games start you are gone on the weekends from the school for about 10 to 15 hours at a minimum.  It can be overwhelming your frosh year but you do get used to it as you progress through your college career.

You are not alone!  My son is juggling baseball and being an Optometrist at the same time.  He spends lots of time on his laptop while on the bus.  He is in year 3 and still has a 3.7.  We constantly remind him to look at the big picture down the road.  Lots of work now, lots of benefits later.  

I'll admit....my son's grades were a concern when he decided to accept a scholarship at a D1 to play baseball.  He was a good student in HS...ended up with a 3.6 GPA and a 31 ACT.  His sister had graduated 2 years earlier with a 4.0 and a 32 ACT.  He could have done the 4.0 thing....and I don't think it would have taken him much effort.  In 4 years, I can count on one hand how many times he brought a book home.  He just got the stuff....and really didn't have to work hard to get the 3.6.

My concern was that when he got to college, his "I'll just get it" attitude would be a major issue....as college courses are much, much more difficult than HS. 

Luckily this hasn't been the case.  The freshmen were required to attend 8 hours/week of "study tables" the first semester.  He did it....and ended up with a 3.49 GPA while taking a couple math classes that really really challenged him. 

His GPA allowed him to get out of study tables the second semester....which I think is kind of crazy considering baseball starts and he'll be missing classes....but that's the school's rule....not mine.

It's been a little tougher....with juggling practices, travel and school.  Grades are about the same....but I'm hearing complaining about classes, etc that I didn't hear the first half of the year.  I assume that his time is just very limited now and it's making everything seem more clustered.

At this point, it appears he'll get thru the year about where he/we had hoped/expected.  The amount of time he's spent traveling has been much more than we had expected.  Really had never considered that a weekday road trip to a school 2-3 hours away would turn into a 12+ hour day from the time they left in the morning until they got back that night.  They got back from their spring trip at 4:30am on Monday morning and had class at 9....and have gotten back from road trips (weekday or Sunday) as late as 2:00am and are required to be at class the next morning.

So far so good, as far as I know he's still enjoying it...but I'm getting the feeling it's a little different than he initially expected.  It's definitely school & baseball.....not the other way around....lol

One thing that our son does that has helped this year is rooming on road trips with other players in his classes.  They work on classwork in the evening after curfew or sometimes on the bus ride back to school, and are ready for classes on Monday.

My son got a 2.7 the first semester. I told him if he lost the 50% academic part he was coming home where I could monitor his academics. He got a 3.5 the next semester. I told him that's the expectation bar from this day forward. He did it.  He was in the top 3% of his class in high school.

He was guilty of trying to do it all, except enough studying the first semester. I told him to not even consider a frat until soph year. Did he listen? No. He dove right in on top of everything else. My son has starred in his short life in falling out of trees and landing on his feet scoring a perfect ten.

Don't understand the "we'll support your decision no matter what."

Has he mentioned it's too much for him and he's considering not playing baseball anymore and just be a student?  

Yes, it's all new to Freshmen but surely he knew ahead of time what it means to be on a D1 team and travel during season. Is he worried he can't keep a 4.0? Some kids are overachievers and getting a 3.6,3.7 is not acceptable to them.  By the way, the classes only get harder as they advance in a major. 

Guess I'm trying to see what is the issue here, and why you thought you were getting beat up as u stated. You have a Freshman son starting at a D1 school with a 4.0 and you want to discuss how hard it is to play and be an athlete during Season. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but there are people on here whose sons are truly dealing with this who are struggling with grades/and or playing time so you won't get much sympathy from them. 

Your son is 18-19, let him see how his older teammates deal with the issue. Not sure if he brought up academics or you, but nothing you can say really that you haven't already. 

Maybe he feels he's not being challenged enough in his education coupled with no way of changing anything because of what it takes to stay in his spot on team.Is it possible ?

ILOVEBASEBALL,

Ahhhhh, now most of your sons as well as their  folks are realizing just how difficult (in any division), this game of baseball AND being a student really is.

This is a particularly rough time,  classes are getting more difficult. 4-5 games a week, traveling, getting in late, tired, frustrated, is very typical. And I agree he should not be missing so many classes. Your sons schedule should be built around his schedule.

In a little bit over a month, school will be over and it's just baseball. Things will be looking up. The first year is very tough, it gets easier and easier.

Just listen, that's your job. Understand that after your sons do 3,4,5 years of this, they will be able to do anything!

Not baseball, but I have a hard time believing all of those football and basketball players, with tattoo sleeves go to all of their classes.

Baseball33 posted:

Not baseball, but I have a hard time believing all of those football and basketball players, with tattoo sleeves go to all of their classes.

I'm having a hard time believing most of them were qualified to get into college.   They get degrees (if they graduate) that are worthless and are hoping they make the pro's. 

Lionbaseball, true. I wonder if they actually attend classes but have easy graders and work done for them or they have phantom classes like at UNC a couple of years ago. I remember even STANFORD, of all places, had an "easy class list" one of the classes were "North American dances part 2"

lionbaseball posted:

Baseball33 posted:

Not baseball, but I have a hard time believing all of those football and basketball players, with tattoo sleeves go to all of their classes.

I'm having a hard time believing most of them were qualified to get into college.   They get degrees (if they graduate) that are worthless and are hoping they make the pro's. 

Why don't you guys look up college graduation rates before you make generalizations.  

TPM posted:

lionbaseball posted:

Baseball33 posted:

Not baseball, but I have a hard time believing all of those football and basketball players, with tattoo sleeves go to all of their classes.

I'm having a hard time believing most of them were qualified to get into college.   They get degrees (if they graduate) that are worthless and are hoping they make the pro's. 

Why don't you guys look up college graduation rates before you make generalizations.  

... and toss the white robes. Since it's obvious the comments are aimed at black kids I'm going to tell you about one of my neighbors. 

Both parents are successful business people. Yes, his parents are married. Surprised? The kid graduated from a prestigious private school with about a 3.5. He went on to play for a perennially nationally ranked basketball program. He left college for the draft after junior year. He could have been a one and done as a freshman starter. He's played eight years in the NBA. He went to summer school to graduate from college after signing a multi million dollar first round contract.

Dont generalize. There's more of this than you realize. A kid like my neighbor doesn't make the news other than for scoring points. He never gets in trouble.

Good points RJM.  

I am still waiting for a report on graduation rates for football and basketball players.  Let's start with the top 2 programs in the country, Alabama and Clemson.

I know for a fact if you don't attend class, you won't play.  

Let me know when you know the answer.

FWIW, one of the reasons that baseball doesn't allow D1 to D1 transfer or any transfer into a baseball program is because they had the worst RPI of all sports.

This one is a little unique. There aren't any other NFL lineman spending their off season at MIT getting their PhD in Applied Mathematics. Ravens John Urschel is. He left Penn State for the NFL with A BA and MA in Mathematics. It did take him five years to get the two degrees. Dumb kid! The poor black kid grew up in a family where his father is a surgeon. His mother is an attorney.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/jo...fl-to-mit-1457028222

Patriots draft choice Malcolm Mitchell, WR, Georgia is already a published children's author.

http://www.redandblack.com/spo...66-1b714e3a1a4d.html

Theres a lot of good going on in college sports. Sometimes it's just a kid doing what he's supposed to be doing. More than you will ever know it's an athlete making a difference.

Ok, let's look at a study from UNC. CNN researched the reading levels of 183 UNC athletes who played football or basketball from 2004-2012. CNN found 60% read between a 4th and 8th grade level. Between 8-10% read below a third grade level. At the university of Oklahoma, a professor found that 10% of revenue sport athletes read below a 4th grade reading level. In 2014, Florida State University had just a 65% graduation rate among football players. In 2012, UCONN Basketball had a graduation rate of 11%. Also in 2012, UF Basketball and GT Basketball had 17 and 18% graduation rates. 

Top 5 football programs in academics in 2015:

5. Duke

4. Boston College (92.8% GR)

3. Rice (94% GR)

2. Northwestern (96% GR)

1. Norte Dame (96.2% GR)

Total record of those teams: 36-27.

You will probably find the athletic numbers you present closely resemble regular student population numbers. More than 50% of the students in the Cal State system are taking remedial courses. The graduation rate at UMass Boston is about 15%. The issue isn't athletics. The overall student population graduation rate is about 55%.

The issue is the shambles the American education system has become. It's also ignorant and racist to insinuate football and basketball are black and stupid.

Go Trump! Right?

To follow up with the graduation rates:

2013 SEC Football Graduation Rates:

1. Georgia- 82%, 8-4

2. Vanderbilt- 82%, 9-3

3. Florida- 77%, 4-8

4. LSU- 74%, 10-2

5. Missouri- 74%, 12-0

6. Texas A&M- 74%, 9-3

7. Alabama- 73%, 11-1

8. Auburn- 70%, 12-0

9. South Carolina- 65%, 11-1

10. Tennessee- 64%, 5-7

11. Kentucky- 62%, 2-10

12. Mississippi State- 59%, 7-5

13. Ole Miss- 55%, 8-4

14. Arkansas- 54% , 3-9

Note: In the bottom half you have an undefeated team and 2 11-1 teams. Auburn was in the 2013 national championship. 

Also your not helping your case when Cardale Jones tweets "CLASSES are POINTLESS. We came here to play FOOTBALL. Not attend CLASSES."

RJM, did I say anything about African American athletes?

Cardale Jones represents all athletes? You're taking the worst of college sports and trying to make a point it's the norm. You're very wrong. Sure there are some jugheads. There are some criminals. But they are a small percentage of college athletes. They're even a small percentage of football and basketball. Those are the two sports you dog whistled "blacks."

The solid majority of athletes who behave, go to class and do community service fly under the radar screen. I know several kids who played D1 football and basketball. They all graduated. They never made the news off the field or court. One of them went back to college in the off season after signing for millions. It never made the news. Graduating is boring news. But it makes him a hell of a role model. Same with John Urschel and Malcolm Mitchell. You would be surprised how much time college athletes spend at hospitals and schools.

I never said basketball and football were "black" sports. I was using football and basketball as an example of the academic problem in these two sports. If 60% of your kids are reading at a 4th-8th grade level how do you expect them to do college level reports and projects? Also, this is not an issue of race, you keep bringing up that I labeled basketball and football "black" sports. Many white people play basketball and football so this is not an issue of race as you keep bringing up.

Baseball33 posted:

Not baseball, but I have a hard time believing all of those football and basketball players, with tattoo sleeves go to all of their classes.

This is what you said.

Then you have a controversial poster who will just pick up on your comment and run with it.

Hope this works.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/reso...rate-continues-climb

Lionbaseball, true. I wonder if they actually attend classes but have easy graders and work done for them or they have phantom classes like at UNC a couple of years ago. I remember even STANFORD, of all places, had an "easy class list" one of the classes were "North American dances part 2"

Yea - but North American Dances Part 1 is a pre-requisite and that one's really tough.  I think instead of approaching this from a blanket statement, perhaps some folks might consider an individual "student=athlete" who possesses exceptional athletic ability, but has a deficiencies in his educational background.  Assume this kid is either a football or basketball player (i.e. helps foot the bills) - do you think many Power 5 teams are really going to suggest true remedial work - throughout the process - such that eligibility might be delayed a year?  I think some kids who are wholly unprepared and are not provided appropriate resources (things like remedial reading skills to improve reading level) may still benefit from the overall process.  But, consider the mid-level player (good enough to start Power 5 but maybe not quite good enough to go pro) who get injured their junior/senior year.  While many universities have programs to assist motivated kids when this happens, is the institution really going to go out of its way to convince some unmotivated kid - who still has a long uphill road as it relates to acedemics - that they ought to stick it out?  Might anyone believe that some poorly equipped kid becomes dispensable once they are no longer able to contribute athletically?  The "easy" classes/majors are just one way for an institution to manage the academically unmotivated kid (and I am not throwing stones at these kids - my kid is current not academically motivated but hoping that changes soon).

Besides, didn't I hear that Johnny Manziel completed his final semester's required 12 hours via online courses?  Would love to see that schedule.  Can you take dance classes online?

TPM posted:

Hope this works.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/reso...rate-continues-climb

College athletes graduate at a rate of 86%. Only 37 colleges (at any level) have an 86% graduation rate for all students. 

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Lionbaseball, true. I wonder if they actually attend classes but have easy graders and work done for them or they have phantom classes like at UNC a couple of years ago. I remember even STANFORD, of all places, had an "easy class list" one of the classes were "North American dances part 2"

Yea - but North American Dances Part 1 is a pre-requisite and that one's really tough.  I think instead of approaching this from a blanket statement, perhaps some folks might consider an individual "student=athlete" who possesses exceptional athletic ability, but has a deficiencies in his educational background.  Assume this kid is either a football or basketball player (i.e. helps foot the bills) - do you think many Power 5 teams are really going to suggest true remedial work - throughout the process - such that eligibility might be delayed a year?  I think some kids who are wholly unprepared and are not provided appropriate resources (things like remedial reading skills to improve reading level) may still benefit from the overall process.  But, consider the mid-level player (good enough to start Power 5 but maybe not quite good enough to go pro) who get injured their junior/senior year.  While many universities have programs to assist motivated kids when this happens, is the institution really going to go out of its way to convince some unmotivated kid - who still has a long uphill road as it relates to acedemics - that they ought to stick it out?  Might anyone believe that some poorly equipped kid becomes dispensable once they are no longer able to contribute athletically?  The "easy" classes/majors are just one way for an institution to manage the academically unmotivated kid (and I am not throwing stones at these kids - my kid is current not academically motivated but hoping that changes soon).

Besides, didn't I hear that Johnny Manziel completed his final semester's required 12 hours via online courses?  Would love to see that schedule.  Can you take dance classes online?

 

First, I want you to know you're agreeing with the board bigot. Second it's never hard to tell who hasn't been there and done it or never came across the information.

College athletes are not allowed to just take the easiest courses without any regard towards a degree. Yes, they can take easier majors and easy elective courses. But they have to be working towards a degree. Teams have academic advisors to make sure this is happening. 

The NCAA has an annual APR (Academic Profress Rate) calculation for every team. Someone mentioned UConn. They didn't meet APR one year. They lost scholarships and the right to participate in the NCAA tournament.

Yes, there are early draft applicants who skip courses in the spring. Some of them never wanted to be students. But for a majority blame the NFL and NBA. As soon as the football and basketball player's season is over there is a lot of pressure to be at peak physical and athletic performance for their combines. Not being so could cost a players hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions. 

The problem with one and done is these basketball players don't want to be at college. They take an intro course towards their major and three of the easiest courses they can find. In the spring they don't go to classes. As soon as the season is over they go into training for NBA combines. Blame the college and the NBA, not the athlete. 

These are the athletes you hear about in the paper. For every one of them that make the news there are many more athletes who go back to school and graduate. Do you think an NBA player I referenced making 6 mil a year needs to go back to college? He's also the son of a wealthy former NBA player and currently successful businessman. His mother stuck her finger in his face and ordered him to graduate. I'm sure he would have done it anyway. His father also went back and graduated. Had you heard of John Urschel before I mentioned him?

College football and basketball players make news by breaking the law. It sells newspapers. It reinforces white people to say, "See, I told you so about those people."

In the case of Manziel he needs some serious help. He's in the denial stage of addition. He thinks he can handle alcohol and drugs in moderation. He's wrong. The problem is he's always been catered to. I wonder how often his tracks have been covered in his life. He needs to wake up. Teams and agents consider him toxic. If Drew Rosenhaus drops you it's hard to go lower in the barrel for an agent.

College athletes are not allowed to just take the easiest courses without any regard towards a degree. Yes, they can take easier majors and easy elective courses. But they have to be working towards a degree. Teams have academic advisors to make sure this is happening. 

OK - they cannot completely ignore degree progress over the course of a few years but as you say a) they can take (or be told to take) the easier majors and b) take (or again be told to take) easy elective courses.  If you don't think some of the major programs have severe doubts about certain individuals academic success, they you are simply wrong.  High schools sometimes graduate these type kids when they really are not performing at a high school level.  Major colleges have very special programs which work to get these kids eligible (I forget what the big priate school is that is basically an NCAA eligibility mill) and keep them eligible.  The UNC scandal sheds some light on this.  I'm not saying the majority of student-athletes are not students first - I'm saying there are kids truly getting taken advantage of - at the individual level - as there "four year ride" sometimes ends up with a bruised body and no degree.  It happens - am not trying to provide figures, but no one should think such an outcome never occurs.

As for aligning with the board bigot, I assume most of my blame lies at the feet of white administrators.  No idea what could be done or what should be done when a athletically gifted kid gets shuffled through high school, but, similar to the idea of paying these kids, I think eligibility rules need to have room for kids with academic weaknesses as long as the college program demonstrates that they are actually addressing these weaknesses - instead of glossing over best they can by crafting a modern day major in underwater basket weaving.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

College athletes are not allowed to just take the easiest courses without any regard towards a degree. Yes, they can take easier majors and easy elective courses. But they have to be working towards a degree. Teams have academic advisors to make sure this is happening. 

OK - they cannot completely ignore degree progress over the course of a few years but as you say a) they can take (or be told to take) the easier majors and b) take (or again be told to take) easy elective courses.  If you don't think some of the major programs have severe doubts about certain individuals academic success, they you are simply wrong.  High schools sometimes graduate these type kids when they really are not performing at a high school level.  Major colleges have very special programs which work to get these kids eligible (I forget what the big priate school is that is basically an NCAA eligibility mill) and keep them eligible.  The UNC scandal sheds some light on this.  I'm not saying the majority of student-athletes are not students first - I'm saying there are kids truly getting taken advantage of - at the individual level - as there "four year ride" sometimes ends up with a bruised body and no degree.  It happens - am not trying to provide figures, but no one should think such an outcome never occurs.

As for aligning with the board bigot, I assume most of my blame lies at the feet of white administrators.  No idea what could be done or what should be done when a athletically gifted kid gets shuffled through high school, but, similar to the idea of paying these kids, I think eligibility rules need to have room for kids with academic weaknesses as long as the college program demonstrates that they are actually addressing these weaknesses - instead of glossing over best they can by crafting a modern day major in underwater basket weaving.

Have you ever tried underwater basket weaving?  That crap is hard to do!

Regarding easy courses and majors. It's not uncommon for even the smartest students to take easier courses in season. Our athletic department gave us a list of easy courses, pro athlete professors and anti athlete professors to stay away from. I wasn't some dumb jock. I majored in Econ with a concentration in Quantitative Analytics. Every elective I took was the easiest course available that semester.  We even had names for the courses. Geology 101 was Rocks for Jocks. Theology 101 was Praying for A's. Any Poly ScI course taught by a communist, anti war professor was a B for showing up and an A for competent work. We also had Coaching (pick your sport) 101.

However easy courses and majors is relative. Anything math was relatively easy for me. People think being a Phys Ed major is easy? Take a look at a keneisiology book. I'd never make it through the course. 

In order to compete in the NCAA a prospective student must meet a minimum SAT score. I'm not sure what it is anymore. I believe it may be a sliding score based on GPA now. A dumb kid isn't going to pass. He's going to attend a JuCo. From there he will prove if he has the academic ability to make it in the classroom at an NCAA school.

What I'm explaining is the norm. Sure there are programs and players who try to beat the rules. But it's not the norm.

Dont assume just because a kid is from the ghetto and talks funny (to your ear) he can't cut it in the classroom. One of my best friends and college teammate's was from the ghetto in West Memphis. He was one of nine children. His mother was 14 when he was born. Do you think a ghetto kid from the South is going to sound normal to my ear? 

He was the first in the history of his family to not drop out of high school. He was the school valedictorian. He joked it's like being the top skier from Florida. By the time he played four years of baseball he was one semester short of a M.A.. He went to school year round rather than go home. 

I asked him what motivated him. He said he saw things on tv he wanted. He explained there are two ways to get them. Steal them or get an education, a job and buy them.

I sat with some people who are involved in the athletic program yesterday at a game and told the about this topic.

From what I gather, expectations are different for some players than others.  It will take more than 4 years for many to graduate, but if more programs had programs that assist the student athlete after their eligibility is up, they would graduate.  There are some big conference programs that have these programs in place,  and have to for the APR and grad ratings.

What's so funny about easier classes? My son took easier classes, so did a lot of other baseball players whose parents post here.

I am just waiting for the day some of your kids go off to school to play baseball and you see them struggle.You might remember making fun.

Then you might truly understand what it's all about.

Stop trying to paint me as a racist or a bigot. I'm saying the obvious: SOME COLLEGE ATHLETES GET SPECIAL TREATMENT. For example, if the star QB at USC had a game the day of a test you think he's gonna say "sorry guys I can't play today I got a test" NO! Football and basketball create $$$ for colleges and the better the programs are the more money the college makes. So if Johnny Manziel wasn't making academic eligibility requirements you think A&M would bench him!? No! He brought so much money to that college. Also check out deadspin, they have a few article on the FSU Football program. On was written 6 months ago about how a former FSU official testified that over 40 football players that were investigated on assualt and domestic violence and they got special treatment. If you think that they tolerate domestic violence and not skipping class you're delusional. Reminder, this is FSU the great football team that won a National Championship in 2013 and made the CFP in 2014. Bottom line is this, Better atheltic programs= better revenue for the school. Also, I think easier classes are great for athletes they should be focused on athletics if that's what they came there for. 

Baseball33 posted:

Stop trying to paint me as a racist or a bigot. I'm saying the obvious: SOME COLLEGE ATHLETES GET SPECIAL TREATMENT. For example, if the star QB at USC had a game the day of a test you think he's gonna say "sorry guys I can't play today I got a test" NO! Football and basketball create $$$ for colleges and the better the programs are the more money the college makes. So if Johnny Manziel wasn't making academic eligibility requirements you think A&M would bench him!? No! He brought so much money to that college. Also check out deadspin, they have a few article on the FSU Football program. On was written 6 months ago about how a former FSU official testified that over 40 football players that were investigated on assualt and domestic violence and they got special treatment. If you think that they tolerate domestic violence and not skipping class you're delusional. Reminder, this is FSU the great football team that won a National Championship in 2013 and made the CFP in 2014. Bottom line is this, Better atheltic programs= better revenue for the school. Also, I think easier classes are great for athletes they should be focused on athletics if that's what they came there for. 

No one said they didnt get special treatment. They should, they help make millions of dollars for their programs and bowl riches build new facilities and bring in new recruits. So its my opinion that they should not only get full scholarships but a very large stipend as well.  

I dont read deadspin because 90% of it is bs.

For the record you and Ernie turned this topic into a new direction, and yes you made unnecessay references about individuals.

Since I may have aided in getting this post off track, I am ready to get it back on track as I am very interested in the particulars of how a college player manages.  As I remember college, you could choose between MWF and TuTh classes.  I understand that they expect the player to plan classes for the morning and I assume that includes some MWF classes during both semesters.  In the fall, I assume having to miss a class is infrequent and there is little if any weekend travel.  As you move into the spring, hopefully you can lighten the load and take fewer classes (perhaps only 4 preferably 5).  Travel starts up to include some long weekends (possibly leaving Thursday night - assume getting back late Sunday or even early hours Monday) along with some mid-week out of town games.  Towards the end of the season, exams start and scheduling becomes increasing important.

My couple of questions that I seem to get conflicting answers on are as follows:  Should you try to squeeze in hours/classes during the summer (including the summer before freshman year) to get ahead of the curve?  Has technology benefited physical absence from the classroom?  Can you take online courses which count towards the 12 hour semester minimum for eligibility?

In rereading the OP, I was wondering if the kid is overwhelmed by baseball taking time away from everything, and not just academics.  Honestly, my son won't complain about too little classroom time.  I'm hoping at some point he complains about the workload and possible scheduling conflicts (can't take a required course a particular semester due to baseball conflict), but first/second semester I'm hoping he simply survives.  I'm not saying it would be a cake walk without baseball (lots of kids simply wash out due to too much time on their hands) so I'm hoping the intensely structured environment might actually benefit him.  

2016 is/has to start school summer before frosh yr.In fact he will be gone after @ 6-25.(along with the other hopefull BB frosh.) Gets 2 weeks off sometime in late aug.? then back to school till ???  Of ALL the things I have thought better know this.Hey 2016 better check this out.Theres one thing that in a million yrs. never crossed my mind.2016 sister.Shes his Jr. by 3 yrs 2 grades.Once he said end of june hes gone.I can see the angst on her face to the point I can tell its building and she is going to cry.2016 going off to school hasn't been a secret.I kinda think with her its been going on for so long that him leaving was always in the future somewhere.Well the future is 6*7 weeks away. Who would've thought?

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Since I may have aided in getting this post off track, I am ready to get it back on track as I am very interested in the particulars of how a college player manages.  As I remember college, you could choose between MWF and TuTh classes.  I understand that they expect the player to plan classes for the morning and I assume that includes some MWF classes during both semesters.  In the fall, I assume having to miss a class is infrequent and there is little if any weekend travel.  As you move into the spring, hopefully you can lighten the load and take fewer classes (perhaps only 4 preferably 5).  Travel starts up to include some long weekends (possibly leaving Thursday night - assume getting back late Sunday or even early hours Monday) along with some mid-week out of town games.  Towards the end of the season, exams start and scheduling becomes increasing important.

My couple of questions that I seem to get conflicting answers on are as follows:  Should you try to squeeze in hours/classes during the summer (including the summer before freshman year) to get ahead of the curve?  Has technology benefited physical absence from the classroom?  Can you take online courses which count towards the 12 hour semester minimum for eligibility?

In rereading the OP, I was wondering if the kid is overwhelmed by baseball taking time away from everything, and not just academics.  Honestly, my son won't complain about too little classroom time.  I'm hoping at some point he complains about the workload and possible scheduling conflicts (can't take a required course a particular semester due to baseball conflict), but first/second semester I'm hoping he simply survives.  I'm not saying it would be a cake walk without baseball (lots of kids simply wash out due to too much time on their hands) so I'm hoping the intensely structured environment might actually benefit him.  

I am not sure what they do at the D-I, DII, or DIII level, but in JC Baseball they travel in the fall several weekends too.

The NCAA, no matter what division, wants the student athlete to graduate, and to do so on time.  During the recruiting process, this should be discussed not only with the coach, but with any advisor that the student athlete  will report to.  I feel that this is seldom overlooked by many.

As a D1 athlete my son was required to take 18 credits fall and spring semester. These days many are encouraged to begin classes in the summer.  Also, things are different for programs with 3 or 4 semesters per calender year.

You dont plan your classes on your own. You have an advisor who works closely with you to make sure that you are taking what is required for your major, and to help schedule around the schedule that the coach has made for practice.  And of course your spring travel schedule will determine your classes.  

If you have a class and you have to miss, permission has to be awarded in advance.  My son needed permission to miss classes last fall, even as a senior.

As far as D1 on line classes are available, but usually you may not take them your first year.  This may be different for some schools, but I dont think so.

Remember that the school is responsible for you to stay on task.  If you need 132 credits to graduate on time, 12 isnt going to cut it, and remember, another semester is more money needed to spend.

I am more D1 orientated so that is the basis formy answer.

One thing that i do know, at sons program and university, if you continually miss class you will lose your opportunity to play any sport.

Here is my son's experience for class load, timing etc. When he first signed up for classes in summer before freshman year for fall classes. there was a big block 1pm-6pm- Baseball that he was not supposed to schedule classes. He ended up with one night class (6:15pm-9:15 or something like that), 4 classes somewhere between 8am-noon throughout the week and one online class for a 6 classes (18 hours, I think). During the fall. he had lifting 3-4 days a week before his first class, then class, practice times 1-6pm. His practices were staggered but basically 2 - 2 1/2 hours a day. Included in that 1-6pm was mandatory study table 10 hours a week.

For spring he had 5 classes, one evening on Monday 6:15pm - 9:15pm, 2 classes Tuesday Thursday between 8am-noon and 2 online classes. Online classes are like any other class and count towards your hours. Generally for away games on weekends. They left around 1pm on Thursdays. He was still required to get his 10 hours mandatory study table a week in. For mid week games, if you weren't playing for sure, you don't go if you are going to miss class. . So weekend starting pitchers, and whomever else coach decides don't go. Last year my son was the mid week starting pitcher, so he went to them. 

This year is much the same. He is hurt and out for season but gets to go if it does not mean he will miss class. 

He has two teammates who are taking majors that require internships (they are both going to be teachers). So they miss anything mid week and then make up there baseball work in evening from what I am told. Both are relievers in there senior season.

On a side note, I love that mandatory study table is required. Every college he visited said they did that for freshmen. He is a good student but had never had to work at grades, study tables forced him to be organized for academics and gave specific time for it. Truly as a parent of 3 current or former college students and only one of them an athlete. I wish they did that for all freshman. He was much more organized with his studies than my other 2 and I attribute a part of that to study tables.

All D1 first year freshman are required to attend 10 hours of study hall a week, first semester.  After that its up to the coach depending on your GPA.

I am a firm believer that all players on any given roster should be in attendance for all games. It makes for team unity and chemistry.  

JMO

TPM, I agree about being in attendance to all games. Generally son's team that is way it works unless they have a class and definitely not playing. Only ones that are definite are SP for weekends, those that are out medically, and those that do not travel in general. They are all at home games even those that do not travel. Usually for those few it is about when they have to leave.

I like how our coach does that, in that class first if no way they are playing. That might be 1-2 players for 5-6 games a year

fanofgame posted:

Also stop with the bashing of types of degrees. My son got liberal arts degree for several reasons. Yes its tough in the job market but he didnt nor does he want to be a dr or engineer(not knocking either of those or any degree) My own son wanted a business degree but coming ftom a jc after one year and being at a private school and requirements were different he could not finish in four years. Being on athletic money had to finish in four years. 

The constant cuts on so called easy degrees really bugs me. For some kids thats what they can do with baseball on top of it  dont assume theyare lazy or not as smart. 

FanofGame,

Accepting your point that we shouldn't criticize broad categories of degrees, we should also acknowledge that:

--There are degrees that do not tell prospective employers that graduates are prepared to contribute to a business.

--There are fields of study that produce far more graduates than their related occupational fields can absorb.

--There are degrees that do not become marketable until they are combined with a follow-on graduate or professional program.

--Many college graduates are trapped in jobs whose pay is too low to service the debt on the degrees that didn't help them land better jobs.

Athletes do need to be warned that not all degrees will help them get started in careers, even with the brand name of a good school at the top of the transcript.

If I was bashing degrees, then it was directed at the program itself, not individual student-athletes making thoughtful decisions on what degree to pursue.  There seem to be some degree programs (think UNC) that survive only to cater to athletes who don't know any better and are pressured, I mean advised, to pursue these degrees due to the ability to maintain eligibility for the foreseeable future (i.e. next season) so the coaches can keep their jobs.  Again, this is largely related to D1 money sports at institutions - or segments thereof - which place more emphasis on the athlete and less on the student.  I personally think playing college baseball will add marketability to any degree with the possible exception of some really technical fields.  I also think it can add a level of maturity that will help during the initial years out in the workforce.  I'm not bashing degree choice, I'm bashing a degree path being rubber stamped for some unprepared kid who might not know any better.

Am looking forward to some of the NCAA D1 eligibility standards getting ready to go into effect.  On the football and basketball side, there may be some players who no longer get eligible through "diploma mills" as the rules will no longer allow for a massive retake of D/F courses during the final year, the final summer, or even online over Christmas.  Hopefully this sinks in and pushes those kids to engage in school a little sooner and be better prepared once they show up on campus (and maybe make their own choice on the degree path).  Have seen several major D1 recruits who are signing NLI's for both the D1 program as well as some JUCO program as a backup as they come down to the wire on academic eligibility.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

If I was bashing degrees, then it was directed at the program itself, not individual student-athletes making thoughtful decisions on what degree to pursue.  There seem to be some degree programs (think UNC) that survive only to cater to athletes who don't know any better and are pressured, I mean advised, to pursue these degrees due to the ability to maintain eligibility for the foreseeable future (i.e. next season) so the coaches can keep their jobs.  Again, this is largely related to D1 money sports at institutions - or segments thereof - which place more emphasis on the athlete and less on the student.  I personally think playing college baseball will add marketability to any degree with the possible exception of some really technical fields.  I also think it can add a level of maturity that will help during the initial years out in the workforce.  I'm not bashing degree choice, I'm bashing a degree path being rubber stamped for some unprepared kid who might not know any better.

Am looking forward to some of the NCAA D1 eligibility standards getting ready to go into effect.  On the football and basketball side, there may be some players who no longer get eligible through "diploma mills" as the rules will no longer allow for a massive retake of D/F courses during the final year, the final summer, or even online over Christmas.  Hopefully this sinks in and pushes those kids to engage in school a little sooner and be better prepared once they show up on campus (and maybe make their own choice on the degree path).  Have seen several major D1 recruits who are signing NLI's for both the D1 program as well as some JUCO program as a backup as they come down to the wire on academic eligibility.

I don't get your point.  JMO but I feel that most student athletes come unprepared. That's why they have support systems in place. 

 This doesn't just apply to "those" students that were referred to.

Let's see someday when your kids probably bit off more than they can chew, it you understand it better.

Two comments

while I agree w team building I still believe any bench player who is having serious grade issue should stay behind on some of the away trips, which can be two days of missing classes, to work on getting grades up. If it were my son I would be for that. Players need to know that school/grades r important and coach means business. 

Ive seen at sons school where several players have changed majors due to baseball. Maybe they are young and never had passion for first major, but some are not willing to put in extra study time w baseball schedule. They are switching to majors they perceive are "easier".  They all see academic advisors who spell out just what classes are needed, and some are realizing college is harder than HS.  Nationally many students are not prepared for college and must take remedial courses. Guess it depends on how academic your HS was. 

fanofgame posted:

I think there are some on this board that look down on certain degrees and I think its rude. 

It's not the degree. It's the overall course of study and what it says about how the applicant used his or her time on campus to prepare for life as an adult.

Anybody who strove for excellence in anything can be a viable candidate for an entry level position. Playing a sport all the way through college checks this box for me.

My rule of thumb is that the less obviously practical a person's major, the more I expect to see either excellence within that major or conscious effort to take practical courses outside of the major. 

Just having a degree--even a degree from a good school--doesn't count for much.

When I encounter a college transcript with an undistinguished record in a humanities or social science major and no courses in statistics, computer science, or anything business related, I regretfully conclude that the young person is not prepared for a grown-up job.

I especially feel that way when the applicants didn't immerse themselves in their chosen liberal arts major.

I received a resume from an English major with a degree from a well respected school. English majors usually have an aptitude for writing and a basic understanding of grammar, so I can turn them into useful employees as fast as I can train them to lose their academic jargon, passive voice, and empty extra words.

However, this particular English major caught my eye because he never took a course in Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, or the Victorian novel. And he didn't excel in the random courses he took on gender issues in modern drama and postmodern textual criticism. An English major with a so-so GPA who didn't take any practical courses outside his major, avoided the hard courses in his major, and can't sustain a conversation about the most important figures in his chosen course of study presents himself as someone who hasn't learned how to apply himself or work hard.

I'm sorry if you think it's rude of me to say so, but this gentleman has a worthless degree that he is still paying for on the installment plan. Despite the brand name on his diploma, he is unemployable and he is also unqualified for graduate study in his field.

I don't have anything against liberal arts degrees. In the past two years, I have hired an English major, a history major, a theology grad student, and a fine arts major.

But in every case, they excelled in their major and they took courses outside their major to prepare for their eventual job search.

I don't think it's rude to tell prospective college students that employers will care about what they take and how well they do.

One of my sons took a very sound approach-he loaded up on the hours in the fall, took an on line class in the summer, and normally carried only 12 hours during the spring semester. He graduated in 4 years with an excellent GPA. It can be done but it takes a lot of time management and that's where a lot of players fall down. You can have your fun to be sure, but time management is critical to succeeding academically.

There are plenty of degrees that in Latin mean, "Now I have to go to grad school." Even some practical degrees requires a masters for the better jobs and decent pay.

When I came out of college companies like IBM, Burroughs, NCR, Xeroox, etc. were big interviews. In the campus cattle calls (first interview) the first aurstion was "what's your major?" It had to be business or math related or sayonara. The second question was gpa. It had to be at least a 3.0.

i told my kids a 3.0 is the average grade in college now. If they want to stand out they need a 3.5 or better. They both did it. My daughter had to work at a prestigious law firm for two years and build contacts to get accepted to an Ivy law school. Ivies look down their noses at most southern educations.

Wow Swampboy, u can tell someone is unemployable by looking at his resume. Maybe he's a wrong fit for a certain job after being interviewed  where specific ques are asked.  Some of the most gifted kids in class are the ones who only score so-so on tests. Let's hold judgement untill more  info is known.

maybe he wants to go into another field w grad degree. Many law students are English majors. Who knows this young mans real story. 

Switching degrees is tough, you can lose credits and that puts you behind in graduating.

RJM posted:

You will probably find the athletic numbers you present closely resemble regular student population numbers. More than 50% of the students in the Cal State system are taking remedial courses. The graduation rate at UMass Boston is about 15%. The issue isn't athletics. The overall student population graduation rate is about 55%.

 

The issue is the shambles the American education system has become. It's also ignorant and racist to insinuate football and basketball are black and stupid.

Go Trump! Right?

Ummmmmm...I think you are the only one so far injecting race into the picture.  

White guilt much?  (there I threw in race.) 

My older son and I visited a D2 college in Arkansas back in 2007.   After visiting the campus, talking to some of the professors, my son went to talk to one of the asst football coaches as he was interested in walking on.  (My son was 6'-1 190 at the time).   The asst coach said, after hearing my son was going to major in Math or Biology, that most of the players don't take hard classes and he would recommend against it.  This was after he learned my son scored a 33 on the ACT and had a 4.0 GPA.  Oh yea, RJM, my son is white if that helps.  

I haven't been on the site for a while for various reasons and I haven't read all the subsequent comments but I will throw my 2 cents in.

College is hard for most. It is completely different than HS. My son was graduated in top 25-30 out of 500 or so. Had a high GPA. Scored well on Math-ACT, English-not so much.  But he didn't know how to study. Never had to study much in HS.

I never realized how time consuming playing college baseball is. I had pictured it, incorrectly, as maybe getting to the field before 7AM daily and doing something for 1-3 hrs and then going to class/study, etc. Nope, a player may have to be at the field 2-3 different times each day.  Classes are not all consecutive and together. They are broken up. My son's time management skills were/are horrendous. Mine at that age probably were too. When I was in college, I started my college classes at 8 every day and was finished by noon except for labs.  It is different now.

Son's coaches though do stay on top of their players. His academic advisor does too.  HC reamed my son a new one last December because his grades for his Freshman Fall semester were not where they should be.  He was at 2.75 or so.  Thankful for the Summer classes which kept the GPA above 3.00.  Although grades are important to coaches, baseball is too. They expect both from their athletes. My son changed his major from Mechanical Engineering to Pre-Law (one day) and is now in Pre-Med. Who knows where he will end up. I just want him to have core courses taken so he doesn't have to take extra hours but we will see.

He drove home last night, finished for the semester. He will end up with a 3.00 or 3.25 for the Spring so he will have an overall Freshman GPA of slightly above 3.00.  That's not what I wanted or expected but looking back, I probably expected too much. He says that he learned late in the Spring semester how to study (we will see).  But it has got to be his choice.

My wife and loved seeing him late last night. His idea of packing is to throw everything in garbage sacks. His truck was crammed full including the futon that his GF was discarding that he drove 8 hours home with in the back....

PS: My daughter on the other hand is not an athlete but is graduating after 5 years from Texas A&M next Saturday with her Masters in Accounting, Emphasis in Tax (and 4.0 GPA in her Master courses). She has qualities he doesn't have and likewise, he has some she doesn't.   WHOOP!!!

playball2011 posted:

Wow Swampboy, u can tell someone is unemployable by looking at his resume. Maybe he's a wrong fit for a certain job after being interviewed  where specific ques are asked.  Some of the most gifted kids in class are the ones who only score so-so on tests. Let's hold judgement untill more  info is known.

maybe he wants to go into another field w grad degree. Many law students are English majors. Who knows this young mans real story. 

Well, yes. I was once in charge of hiring for a very large organization, and now I hire for the teams I supervise at a smaller organization. Having seen a couple thousand resumes from new college grads looking for their first "real" job after school, I can often distinguish quickly between the young people for whom college was about enjoying the experience and the ones who were there to work to prepare themselves for adult responsibilities and adult opportunities. 

Thanks for reminding me that many unemployed English majors enroll in law school and incur additional debt to gain credentials in a field that is even more difficult to get established in than academia. It does reinforce my point, and it is gracious of you to offer it.

fanofgame posted:

Well Thank God there are companies willing to train young grads and thank God others see things beyond a piece of paper.

Learning after college is something most students should continue to do to continue to improve their resumes along with job experience. 

 

Seriously, fanofgame, please refrain from the moral preening.

Yes, learning after college is a requirement. That's why it's important for people's college records to show that they've done it before.

What in the world do you want me to "see" "beyond" the pieces of paper they themselves submit to convince me they are willing to work and learn? Am I not allowed to read and evaluate the documents, or am I just supposed to rub my fingers over the embossed seals and be impressed by the name of the school?

The reputation of the college tells how successful they were in high school. The information on the transcript tells something about how hard they worked during college. Guess which is more relevant information?

When I'm sorting through a couple dozen resumes to fill a non-technical entry level job that barely pays enough for a young person to share an apartment in an expensive metro area, how much effort do you really expect me to expend to learn the life stories of all the applicants? 

fanofgame posted:

5. "Make sure you pick good people to build your business with, as they'll determine 80 percent of your success. The best people are honest and have lots of enthusiasm. Don't worry too much about their level of experience when you're interviewing, as the right attitude always delivers much more than just experience."

6. "I built the business exactly the way my mother built and ran her family. I wanted a replication of the big, happy family I grew up in. I wanted happy people having fun."

From Barb on shark tank

I think maybe there are people who think different 

 

The right attitude is the question here fanofgame, that's what Swampboy is saying.  The person with the right attitude would take advanced courses in what they wanted to do, not sit down with their advisors and plot out the simplest route to graduate.

When you hire people that take the easy way out of everything you don't have a happy workplace you have people that are waiting to throw other people under the bus and don't take responsibility for their own actions, or inactions, because these are also the "I'm going to stay in my box and only do what I am strictly told to do, I'm here for a check, nothing more."

Saying the board has changed based on the comments of one or two users seems like painting with too wide of a brush.

Sincerely,

An English Major

JCG posted:

Saying the board has changed based on the comments of one or two users seems like painting with too wide of a brush.

Sincerely,

An English Major

That right there just earned you an A+!

Marney, dont take it personal.  There have been good points made on both sides.

FWIW, my daughter turned her nose up to college. She has had some incredible opportunities. Right now she is an admin for VPs of a very large corporation.  She works with good people but she tells me so many are really not too happy. 

Whats important is that your son loves what he is doing. Everything else is BS.

Son will be graduating this saturday, getting one of those degrees that some may call useless. PRTM with business and finance.  He is still living his dream on the field. He is happy, in the end, thats whats important.  

Swampboy posted:

playball2011 posted:

Wow Swampboy, u can tell someone is unemployable by looking at his resume. Maybe he's a wrong fit for a certain job after being interviewed  where specific ques are asked.  Some of the most gifted kids in class are the ones who only score so-so on tests. Let's hold judgement untill more  info is known.

maybe he wants to go into another field w grad degree. Many law students are English majors. Who knows this young mans real story. 

Well, yes. I was once in charge of hiring for a very large organization, and now I hire for the teams I supervise at a smaller organization. Having seen a couple thousand resumes from new college grads looking for their first "real" job after school, I can often distinguish quickly between the young people for whom college was about enjoying the experience and the ones who were there to work to prepare themselves for adult responsibilities and adult opportunities. 

Thanks for reminding me that many unemployed English majors enroll in law school and incur additional debt to gain credentials in a field that is even more difficult to get established in than academia. It does reinforce my point, and it is gracious of you to offer it.

At the present time law school is considered a bad career choice unless attending the elite law schools or graduating at or near the top of the class in the law schools at the next level. The same currently applies to obtaining an MBA. Some undergraduate degrees require the student continue on to obtain an MA.

fanofgame posted:

5. "Make sure you pick good people to build your business with, as they'll determine 80 percent of your success. The best people are honest and have lots of enthusiasm. Don't worry too much about their level of experience when you're interviewing, as the right attitude always delivers much more than just experience."

6. "I built the business exactly the way my mother built and ran her family. I wanted a replication of the big, happy family I grew up in. I wanted happy people having fun."

From Barb on shark tank

I think maybe there are people who think different 

 I disagree with your thinking on this.

The reality is 20% of the employees will create 80% of the company's success. The rest will typically achieve mediocrity and eventually move on to another company where they will stand around the water cooler and complain rather than acheive. Our company had better percentages. But I stated the norm across the business world.

Please read the 9 rules from the Japanese History of the Samuari. It was the principle of conduct

for my 33 years in International baseball and business.

Bob