So what happens to a juco kid soph who is going to a D1? He goes in as a Jr now and the soph who was already there stays a soph and has an extra year ?
NLI's are fixed for this year so unless a college coach is successful getting an incoming 2020 to "volunteer" to go elsewhere (JUCO, D2, D3, etc.) then the one-year 25% minimum being lifted was absolutely necessary so teams can comply will the 11.7 scholarship number. So what that means is returning players will have $ reduced in order to meet the new 11.7/32 ruling.
And what about 2021's? They won't be signing NLI's until November so you can bet the "verbal" $'s will be much less than promised. But at least they will be 25% minimum. That is if they are still receiving athletic money. Current 2021 verbal commits will likely be given one of the four following options:
1. No athletic $ reduction (least likely)
2. Athletic $ reduced from what was verbally offered but no less than the 25% minimum (back to normal NCAA ruling of 11.7/27)
3. All athletic $ dropped (they will now be preferred walk-ons)
4. Verbal offer rescinded
@c2019 posted:So what happens to a juco kid soph who is going to a D1? He goes in as a Jr now and the soph who was already there stays a soph and has an extra year ?
The NJCAA has already made some changes that would allow kids to come back to NJCAA. For example, they won't be required to take a full load in their final semester as long as they're scheduled to graduate. I think the one change they REALLY need to make is to class eligibility requirements. Currently, you have to take 12 hours AT THE SCHOOL your playing for. It would help if they would allow kids to take concurrent classes from 4 yr schools online that would count toward the 12.
Another problem I see coming up at all levels is academic eligibility. Many schools went to pass-fail during this past Spring semester. I have also heard from several SA parents who tell me their kids did not handle online classes well. I think you're going to see a much higher than usual number of kids academically ineligible.
Okay, so if they stay at juco they get another year . If they go on to D1 they lose a year per say-
@ABSORBER posted:NLI's are fixed for this year so unless a college coach is successful getting an incoming 2020 to "volunteer" to go elsewhere (JUCO, D2, D3, etc.) then the one-year 25% minimum being lifted was absolutely necessary so teams can comply will the 11.7 scholarship number. So what that means is returning players will have $ reduced in order to meet the new 11.7/32 ruling.
That is my point, why would any returning player voluntarily reduce their scholarship? Programs could absolutely stay under the 11.7. The draft would make it tricky for programs that planned on losing guys, but for the overwhelming majority it can easily be done. Bringing back seniors was optional, giving them money was also optional.
Asking players to take less money so they can bring their competition back is not going to fly with most. We also know that money isn't going to seniors, but transfer portal guys.
IMO it is going to get way uglier with this move.
@c2019 posted:Okay, so if they stay at juco they get another year . If they go on to D1 they lose a year per say-
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but, the 2020 season doesn't count against them whether they stay or go. A sophomore who stayed would still enter the NCAA in 2022 with two remaining years of eligibility.
@ABSORBER posted:NLI's are fixed for this year so unless a college coach is successful getting an incoming 2020 to "volunteer" to go elsewhere (JUCO, D2, D3, etc.) then the one-year 25% minimum being lifted was absolutely necessary so teams can comply will the 11.7 scholarship number. So what that means is returning players will have $ reduced in order to meet the new 11.7/32 ruling.
Just heard third hand about an incoming freshman who was asked this week to give up his 25% scholarship the first year, but they still want him to attend. It's going to be a year like no other.
@PABaseball posted:That is my point, why would any returning player voluntarily reduce their scholarship? Programs could absolutely stay under the 11.7. The draft would make it tricky for programs that planned on losing guys, but for the overwhelming majority it can easily be done. Bringing back seniors was optional, giving them money was also optional.
Asking players to take less money so they can bring their competition back is not going to fly with most. We also know that money isn't going to seniors, but transfer portal guys.
IMO it is going to get way uglier with this move.
Another question would concern P5 schools who are required to give 4yr scholarships. If they gave a bunch of freshman 15% scholarships for 2021 would those automatically have to be renewed at 25% for 2022-2024?
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Just heard third hand about an incoming freshman who was asked this week to give up his 25% scholarship the first year, but they still want him to attend. It's going to be a year like no other.
I just spoke to a dad of a kid at a P5 who spent 2020 as the backup to a guy expected to go in the draft. He still might, depending on what happens tonight, but it's looking like what was once a gimme he'd be gone is more like 50/50. In addition, this school just took two graduate transfers at his position, one of which was an All-American last year at his previous school. He is being asked to consider going to JuCO next year with a "promise" they'll bring him back. Hmmm. He had a scholarship considerably above 25%.
I've said it on this forum several times already. Obviously it's an individual decision. I'd keep the scholarship and see what happens.
Cant blame a coach for trying though! Just because he asks doesn't mean you have to give in. If he offered (and you signed) for 50% just six months ago don't you think he thought you were worth it then? Of course he wants to maximize, who wouldn't? At 50% AND that's the school I want to attend, I'd take my chances.
As far as the P5 4-year scholarships are concerned: that's not a NCAA rule so I don't know how each school and conference will handle it. I'd be surprised if the $$ amount CAN'T be adjusted; that's between each school and the player. I'm no expert so perhaps someone else knows about P5 "adjustments" from year to year and can add some insight.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Just heard third hand about an incoming freshman who was asked this week to give up his 25% scholarship the first year, but they still want him to attend. It's going to be a year like no other.
That's not uncommon, but the coach needs to double up the next year.
I really feel that most coaches will do the right thing as they are trying to deal with a really tough situation, which is too many players and too many changes.
@TPM posted:That's not uncommon, but the coach needs to double up the next year.
I really feel that most coaches will do the right thing as they are trying to deal with a really tough situation, which is too many players and too many changes.
Hopefully this is true or rosters will be huge. Don't see too many coaches wanting 50(+/-) on their roster, but who knows. The NCAA certainly seems somewhat diabolical here in that they could have done this 2 months ago when they extended a year of eligibility to everyone.
But the only things on the NCAA's mind right now are keeping the college football season intact, the next basketball season, and addressing NIL. They really don't care at all about college baseball, players or coaches.
A better solution would've been to keep the 35 roster limit(except for returning seniors), but allow 11.7 scholarships to be divided amongst all 35.
Seriously, thanks to the NCAA, how many awkward conversations already took place and how many going forward are going to start with, " Coach, you said you didn't have room for me?, but the NCAA just lifted roster restrictions. So....?"
And the conversations that start with "I know we said we had room for you, but now that the NCAA opened the rosters you will have to beat out not only the ones who are here but the 5 juco guys that we have coming in now that we can have more."
finding all this fascinating...the transfer portal info is definitely not up to date as I personally know two names on it from a P5 who weeks ago found homes. In addition, while it does not include D3 transfers, the info sometimes shows when the transfer is going D2 or D3 but is not showing a lot of the grad transfers finding new homes. There are some HA D3 that are stocking up on D1 grad transfers, going to be an interesting year for sure.
Latest list of transfers - Over 1000 now
Attachments
Files (1)
@FriarFred posted:Latest list of transfers - Over 1000 now
Close to 300 are graduates. So sad guys lost their Sr year
The transfers in the portal are getting more interesting. Now that roster sizes are unlimited for the 2021 season, more guys seem to be finding new baseball homes, at least for next year.
The NCAA just continues to create messes when it comes to college baseball. If the NCAA fails to act on time( addressing the 35/27/11.7 before 2021s are due to sign NLIs in November), they are going to create a new mess for college baseball coaches and players to deal with just as they are preparing for their do-over season.
@Pedaldad posted:The transfers in the portal are getting more interesting. Now that roster sizes are unlimited for the 2021 season, more guys seem to be finding new baseball homes, at least for next year.
The NCAA just continues to create messes when it comes to college baseball. If the NCAA fails to act on time( addressing the 35/27/11.7 before 2021s are due to sign NLIs in November), they are going to create a new mess for college baseball coaches and players to deal with just as they are preparing for their do-over season.
I'm seeing the same thing. I see guys getting picked up a the D1 level out of JC that you normally might not see there. What happens next year to the kid who goes onto a D1 roster of 45 players who doesn't belong there? In 2022 when they reinstate the limits, there will be a lot of disappointed players in a crunch.
The more this goes on, the more I think the NCAA - at least for baseball - jumped too quick to find a solution. In retrospect, the better plan may have been no plan at all.
@roothog66 posted:I'm seeing the same thing. I see guys getting picked up a the D1 level out of JC that you normally might not see there. What happens next year to the kid who goes onto a D1 roster of 45 players who doesn't belong there? In 2022 when they reinstate the limits, there will be a lot of disappointed players in a crunch.
The more this goes on, the more I think the NCAA - at least for baseball - jumped too quick to find a solution. In retrospect, the better plan may have been no plan at all.
The NCAA cow towed to the student athlete council and responded on emotion without using any rational thinking or common sense about the consequences. It was a very poor decision all to make people feel good. But that’s how we do things these days.
@Fmr coach now Dad posted:The NCAA cow towed to the student athlete council and responded on emotion without using any rational thinking or common sense about the consequences. It was a very poor decision all to make people feel good. But that’s how we do things these days.
100% correct on all fronts.
@Fmr coach now Dad posted:The NCAA cow towed to the student athlete council and responded on emotion without using any rational thinking or common sense about the consequences. It was a very poor decision all to make people feel good. But that’s how we do things these days.
Agree as well 100%.
@Fmr coach now Dad posted:The NCAA cow towed to the student athlete council and responded on emotion without using any rational thinking or common sense about the consequences. It was a very poor decision all to make people feel good. But that’s how we do things these days.
Unless something has changed for non-revenue sports, hasn't it always been about how to increase school enrollment? Overall enrollment provides simple revenue (tuition, room and board).
The governing bodies are just the supply chain for Human Capital Management.
Indentured is a good book about the NCAA.
@ABSORBER posted:I've said it on this forum several times already. Obviously it's an individual decision. I'd keep the scholarship and see what happens.
Cant blame a coach for trying though! Just because he asks doesn't mean you have to give in. If he offered (and you signed) for 50% just six months ago don't you think he thought you were worth it then? Of course he wants to maximize, who wouldn't? At 50% AND that's the school I want to attend, I'd take my chances.
As far as the P5 4-year scholarships are concerned: that's not a NCAA rule so I don't know how each school and conference will handle it. I'd be surprised if the $$ amount CAN'T be adjusted; that's between each school and the player. I'm no expert so perhaps someone else knows about P5 "adjustments" from year to year and can add some insight.
This just happened to my kid. I posted about it in another thread. I would link to that but not sure how. Anyway, he was asked to "release" himself from his NLI along with 6 other freshman. It's easy to say that the kid doesn't have to do it, but what's the other option? Keep the money and show up on a team that already told you they want to give your money to someone else and don't really value you? That would be fun for an 18 year old in a brand new place with no support system developed yet. So - he and all the others released themselves - fortunately we can afford to still send him to that school but others can't. It's a total bullshit situation and the NCAA turns a blind eye.
@Jam24 posted:This just happened to my kid. I posted about it in another thread. I would link to that but not sure how. Anyway, he was asked to "release" himself from his NLI along with 6 other freshman. It's easy to say that the kid doesn't have to do it, but what's the other option? Keep the money and show up on a team that already told you they want to give your money to someone else and don't really value you? That would be fun for an 18 year old in a brand new place with no support system developed yet. So - he and all the others released themselves - fortunately we can afford to still send him to that school but others can't. It's a total bullshit situation and the NCAA turns a blind eye.
Your son and the other players did not have to release themselves. That was their money and they did not have to remain on the team but still could use it towards their first year to attend. Those students remain as counters towards the number of scholarships. They don't tell you that part.
It's really a shame and I am sorry. This situation has given a lot of coaches a big headache, but that doesn't give them a reason to not do the right thing.
TPM, you're right in that those players didn't have to release themselves and would have been entitled to their scholarship money once they enrolled this Fall as long as they were satisfied all admission requirements and all NCAA eligibility requirements.
However, regarding your comment "they did not have to remain on the team, but still could use it..." - that would depend upon how the situation unfolded. If they didn't show up to practice because they felt they were being harassed or bullied by a coach who didn't really want them to take that scholarship, the athletic dept. likely would have interpreted that as "quitting" the team. That would give the athletic department the right to immediately cancel their scholarship.
The situation definitely stinks, and I'm certainly not trying to defend the coach, but just clarifying that it would be highly unlikely that they could keep their scholarship through the year even if they didn't remain on the team.
The coaches ultimately hold the power. "You may have a scholarship that the Power 5 rules say is "guaranteed" to you, but if you ever want to see the field, you'll need to go elsewhere." A player has few choices when the coach says that.
Thanks for the clarification, but they should not have to give up their scholarship. And it's more shameful that they felt that they may have been treated unfairly if they showed up.
It is illegal to take away an incoming players NLI and probably should be made illegal for them to ask.
It's bad because it gives coaches a bad rap. Even the ones who do it the right way.
@TPM posted:Thanks for the clarification, but they should not have to give up their scholarship. And it's more shameful that they felt that they may have been treated unfairly if they showed up.
It is illegal to take away an incoming players NLI and probably should be made illegal for them to ask.
It's bad because it gives coaches a bad rap. Even the ones who do it the right way.
I agree with @TPM. Especially if that player will STILL BE ATTENDING THE VERY SAME SCHOOL!! Seriously, you are going to give up those athletic dollars so you don't hurt anyones feelings and you don't want to be vilified?
Of course you go to every practice, that's why you have a scholarship! Bullied!!!??? Grow up and put on your big boy pants.
If you gave up your scholarship and plan to remain at the same school, I have no sympathy for you whatsoever.
If you left because playing baseball is your primary purpose in life then I may give you a pass but only if you have a decent plan. But chances are, if you don't think you were good enough for the team where you gave up your scholarship then you have an uphill battle.
@TPM posted:Thanks for the clarification, but they should not have to give up their scholarship. And it's more shameful that they felt that they may have been treated unfairly if they showed up.
It is illegal to take away an incoming players NLI and probably should be made illegal for them to ask.
It's bad because it gives coaches a bad rap. Even the ones who do it the right way.
I agree it should be illegal to ask them to unsign themselves. Hard to say how he would have been treated if he kept the money and showed up to try to get on the team, but in an 18yos mind, the power is for sure not in his hands in that situation. That's exactly why it should be illegal to ask them to unsign themselves. The SAs literally have no recourse, no leverage, and no power.
@ABSORBER posted:I agree with @TPM. Especially if that player will STILL BE ATTENDING THE VERY SAME SCHOOL!! Seriously, you are going to give up those athletic dollars so you don't hurt anyones feelings and you don't want to be vilified?
Of course you go to every practice, that's why you have a scholarship! Bullied!!!??? Grow up and put on your big boy pants.
If you gave up your scholarship and plan to remain at the same school, I have no sympathy for you whatsoever.
If you left because playing baseball is your primary purpose in life then I may give you a pass but only if you have a decent plan. But chances are, if you don't think you were good enough for the team where you gave up your scholarship then you have an uphill battle.
I'm not sure who you are telling to put their big boy pants on and who you have no sympathy for, but if it's my son then you should be ashamed of yourself. The only person who needs to grow up and deserves no sympathy is a coach who
- had my son sign a contract that restricted him from looking at other schools or pursuing other options,
- allowed him to register for courses, meet with his athletic and academic advisors,
- had the school send us a bill with the amount of the scholarship accounted for,
- and then 5 weeks before the start of school had the pitching coach and recruiting coordinator call him to say they needed to give his money to someone else who hadn't gone in the draft.
Who does that? A person with no integrity and zero ethics. It should be illegal - breach of contract or restraint of trade. They kept him until absolutely the last minute and then pulled the rug out from under him.
I never said anything about being "bullied." I said the power dynamic for an 18yo moving to a new place with no support system and no advocates would make it extremely difficult to keep the money and show up for practice with a set of people who just told you they don't really want you. If you or your son would be able to manage that, then that would be the choice you would make I guess.
My son is going to the school, trying to earn a spot by working his ass off, and then transferring.
Next time, maybe try not to belittle people who are in a shitty situation not at all of their own making.
@Jam24 posted:I agree it should be illegal to ask them to unsign themselves. Hard to say how he would have been treated if he kept the money and showed up to try to get on the team, but in an 18yos mind, the power is for sure not in his hands in that situation. That's exactly why it should be illegal to ask them to unsign themselves. The SAs literally have no recourse, no leverage, and no power.
I understand how your son may have felt. It's on the coach for putting the players in the position and that was his decision. And the do it over and over because they know that they can get away with it.
I sent you a private message.
@Jam24 posted:I'm not sure who you are telling to put their big boy pants on and who you have no sympathy for, but if it's my son then you should be ashamed of yourself. The only person who needs to grow up and deserves no sympathy is a coach who
- had my son sign a contract that restricted him from looking at other schools or pursuing other options,
- allowed him to register for courses, meet with his athletic and academic advisors,
- had the school send us a bill with the amount of the scholarship accounted for,
- and then 5 weeks before the start of school had the pitching coach and recruiting coordinator call him to say they needed to give his money to someone else who hadn't gone in the draft.
Who does that? A person with no integrity and zero ethics. It should be illegal - breach of contract or restraint of trade. They kept him until absolutely the last minute and then pulled the rug out from under him.
I never said anything about being "bullied." I said the power dynamic for an 18yo moving to a new place with no support system and no advocates would make it extremely difficult to keep the money and show up for practice with a set of people who just told you they don't really want you. If you or your son would be able to manage that, then that would be the choice you would make I guess.
My son is going to the school, trying to earn a spot by working his ass off, and then transferring.
Next time, maybe try not to belittle people who are in a shitty situation not at all of their own making.
It was a generalization and I mean what I say. The "bullying" and "big boy" pants was in response to a reply from @Rick at Informed Athlete.
But if you are telling me your son did this then I still mean it. Why did he give up the money? Walk-on? Your son didn't NEED to walk-on, he already had a spot. Now if he "walks-on", the other players will say, hey kid, thanks for the $$$.
You should have called the coach's bluff. As I stated in an earlier post, the coach just asked your son to give it up; he most definitely didn't force him to do it.
So yes, I feel bad for your son and I agree it's not cool for a coach do ask that of a kid. But try to remember, it's the coach's job to win so he can keep his job. This happens all the time in the workplace. Company "A" asks you take a "promotion" and to move to location "B" so you uproot your family and do it! Then the company sells off your division and the new owners have no need for you or your position. Now you are out of a job. Unethical? Illegal? Uncool? I don't think so, it's the real world.
Have you named the school yet? I’m sorry but 7 kids asked to unsign 5 weeks before? We knew we had an issue months ago. That is crap budgeting and crap coaching.
@Jam24 posted:My son is going to the school, trying to earn a spot by working his ass off, and then transferring.
Is your son going to be attending the school that asked him to give up his money? If so, why give up the money? That sounds like a lose lose. Either keep the money and stay or walk away from NLI and transfer.
any update on the transfer portal? Furman has 29 transfers...LOL I am sure there is a back story there!
This is an embarrassment for the entire system but nobody gives a damn anyway so it will just continue. I am actually glad I am almost done with all of this, yes sure I will miss it to some degree but I don't think I have been involved with a more shady thing then college baseball. The few honest ones out there should question what the hell they are doing.
For those of you who think my kid should go to a different school @PABaseball, @ABSORBER, @CollegebaseballInsights can you please send me a list of all the D1 baseball schools still accepting freshmen for the fall where the coach would definitively say he would be given an opportunity as a walk on (so doesn't have an overflowing roster). Also - no Jucos. Thanks. He'd also take high academic D3s still admitting for the fall. We have four more weeks to figure it out.
I've got a list going for January transfers so fall only please.
@Jam24 posted:For those of you who think my kid should go to a different school @PABaseball, @ABSORBER, @CollegebaseballInsights can you please send me a list of all the D1 baseball schools still accepting freshmen for the fall where the coach would definitively say he would be given an opportunity as a walk on (so doesn't have an overflowing roster). Also - no Jucos. Thanks. He'd also take high academic D3s still admitting for the fall. We have four more weeks to figure it out.
I've got a list going for January transfers so fall only please.
@Jam24 IMHO, @PABaseball @ABSORBER and myself provided an opinion because you posted a thread. Each person provided a point of view, you can look at these viewpoints at face value to help you make your decisions.
Now it is up to your son and the family to go back to the drawing board and find your dream school.
From a college research perspective, you understand your choices:
Purchase a service. maybe you should connect with @Rick at Informed Athlete
or
Do It Yourself
Here is a link that you can use to activate your plan.
https://keepplayingbaseball.or...ine+program+research
here is a website
www.collegebaseballinsights.com with all the data for the last 4 years.
Good luck in your future endeavors.
@Jam24 posted:For those of you who think my kid should go to a different school @PABaseball, @ABSORBER, @CollegebaseballInsights can you please send me a list of all the D1 baseball schools still accepting freshmen for the fall where the coach would definitively say he would be given an opportunity as a walk on (so doesn't have an overflowing roster). Also - no Jucos. Thanks. He'd also take high academic D3s still admitting for the fall. We have four more weeks to figure it out.
I've got a list going for January transfers so fall only please.
I never recommended transferring, I suggested your son show up in the fall on athletic scholarship. If that head coach was a good judge of talent then your son has a good chance to make the team. Or at least a better chance than he would if he gave up his scholarship! His chances now are around 0%. That should be obvious.
This is the reason NLI's exist. Because your son DID forgo other potential offers, he DID only apply to the one school that offered, and he (and you) decided you could afford to attend said school. And it's June (was). That's the reason the removal of the 25% minimum was temporarily suspended--because NLIs had already been signed and are binding. The suspension was necessary BECAUSE of this. But that was for the rest of the team, not your son. The coach had to cut someone's scholarship so he asked if any of his incoming freshman would be willing to walk away. It makes things easier for him so he doesn't have to tell existing players that their scholarships will be reduced. NCAA requires this by July 1st. You did him a huge favor. But you did it voluntarily. Remember, this guy's family depends on his job so he's going to do whatever is necessary to keep it. An NLI-signer's family's economic status will NOT be adversely affected should the player walk away from their NLI.
So what would YOU do if you were the coach?
Again, I feel bad for your son but I also feel bad for everyone affected by C-19. Your son had a shot to stay and make the team--on scholarship! If he did not, transfering remained an option. Like I tell my kids, never leave a job without having a new one lined up; I would give the same advice in this situation.
What school was this ? This is going on at all levels
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:@Jam24 IMHO, @PABaseball @ABSORBER and myself provided an opinion because you posted a thread. Each person provided a point of view, you can look at these viewpoints at face value to help you make your decisions.
Now it is up to your son and the family to go back to the drawing board and find your dream school.
From a college research perspective, you understand your choices:
Purchase a service. maybe you should connect with @Rick at Informed Athlete
or
Do It Yourself
Here is a link that you can use to activate your plan.
https://keepplayingbaseball.or...ine+program+research
here is a website
www.collegebaseballinsights.com with all the data for the last 4 years.
Good luck in your future endeavors.
Thank you. You're right - you just provided options and an opinion. It's the snarky, man-splaining, "let me tell you how the real world works" that gets my hackles up. Thoughtful, nuanced responses that are respectful and not condescending are useful. Thank you for the information. We are thoroughly activated in looking at all the options, and right now - until we learn differently - this is the best one for him in a series of less than ideal choices.