John Smoltz's HOF speech on specialization

I just wanted to get an idea. What you do with your player is your business.  Its easier looking in the rear view mirror than looking forward.  Looking back, son didn't play as much as some of yours. I still stand by my word its too much for that age.  Only time will tell if that is a good choice for him.  Especially for pitchers. Some people I know who have pitchers but still think playing more is good, don't have them pitch at all in fall.  What your player does at 12/13 could impact him negatively at 17/18.  I know you don't see it that way and I know you don't understand.  And he doesn't need to play in a PG event until he reaches HS and has played at least one year. But if that's what floats your boat, fine. More is not always better when bodies are growing and changing.

 

My son was lucky, he remained healthy until he entered pro ball. From there it was downhill.  Sometimes I wish he had not began pitching at 9. If I knew then what I know now, he would not pitch until high school.  I wish I had someone who advised me to do so.

 

Ever wonder why ML pitchers don't let their young pitchers pitch?

 

 

 

First I assure you I.do understand.  And I also understand that we really can't put our finger on what it takes to remain healthy.  That being said we do everything we can to safeguard his arm.  This year he.took the approach that he would cruise when he could and get outs less stressfully.  Less strikeouts but less stress also.  I am entertaining not letting him pitch in fall ball.  This will be his first fall ball experience since he was 10.  He has.the.chance.to compete against 15 and 16 year olds and I just thought it might be a good experience for him.  But yes I do worry.  But you can't put them in bubble wrap either.  And the former big leaguers I know do in fact let their kids pitch.  But no doubt these are difficult decisions.  What I really hate are these january camps.  He loves going to his dream school for a pitchers camp every january.  So I take him.  But it does disturb that down period.  I understand that colleges are going full tilt by late january early feb. So this is when they can do these things.  Thing is though the odds of him ever going to that dream school are remote at best.  But at the same time I believe that if he pursues his dream vigorously even if he doesn't make it he will be better than if I tell him 'give that up its just a dream'.  Difficult decisions no doubt.  One thing I definitely feel though is you cant wait around for your freshman or sophomore year to get started.  Unless of course you are naturally supremely gifted.  So I continue to research and respect all opinions because this arm injury thing is a story still in progress.  Hopefully someday soon we will have some definitive answers.

Not sure what definite answers you want. Can't even begin to tell you how many people here on this website have had pitchers with injuries. They just don't mention it because its personal info.  But as someone said to me recently, you guys have to figure this out yourself.

Having your son throw "softer" doesn't prevent injury. 

FWI son pitched ONE season in Jan, that was for recruiting. If you hate the camp, don't send him. Best programs do fall/summer camps. The  others do it to make money. 

 

This is all a very personal decision. But usually the more enthusiastic dads who are living through their sons dreams seem to disappear. I am pretty sure the kids get hurt and that's it. 

 

No one says you have to stop playing, but 90 games for 13 year olds, just doesn't work for me.  Save those bullets for when he really needs it.

 

You left out what your son throws. 

JMO

At what point does a parent become a parent and tell a kid NO???

 

I use this analogy a lot when it comes to sport specialization. If a kid really likes math and is good at math, do we let the kid only study math starting at age 9? HELL no. So why are athletics different??? 

Just curious, are there a lot of 9 year old kids specializing in one sport?  I understand it is more common among high school age kids, just didn't realize specialization was that common among 9 year olds or even those under 14.

 

Once again, among the three major sports (football, basketball, baseball) I think basketball has the most year around specialization.  In fact, summer basketball is sometimes made mandatory by some high school coaches.  It's also prime time for college recruiting.

PG, it's either this thread or the same topic on another website where there are parents talking about how their kid is playing baseball only at the age of 9-10 years old. It's DUMB. And a kid who "since the age of 9 averages 90 games per calendar year" is DUMB.

 

Baseball isn't the only culprit. Soccer is like that, basketball is like that, volleyball is like that, gymnastics is like that. They're almost all like that. Really the closest thing you see to a two-sport athlete today is a football player who runs track. That's really about it. 

Ok just to clarify - again.  My son plays baseball AND basketball.  He actually juggles AAU ball with baseball in the summer and plays traditional basketball season as well.  So he also plays 60+ basketball games a year.  Is that irresponsible too?  When he was 9 he played football basketball baseball and also swimming.  He dropped swimming when we read that competitive swimming and pitching is an unhealthy combination.  He dropped football.  We don't want to get into that again.  Now he is down to 2 sports as he enters 8th grade.  He is getting very close to high school and he has made his choices.  Who said anything about playing 90 games a year since age 9?  I guess my parents never started being parents cause we were playing something either organized or unorganized 365 days a year.  They are kids with plenty of energy.  My son is well within the pitching guidelines.  If a kid chooses to play baseball only or play 200 games a year Why is that a big deal?  Forget pitching for.the moment.  Just playing cause the kid loves it.  You think down in mobile alabama willie mays and hank aaron didn't carve out some extra baseball time due to the warm climate?

You did say 90 games. That's a lot, plus he does overlap sports. Its not always about throwing, there are plenty of young bodies that get overworked who are not pitchers.

 

FWIW, ours played other sports but never at the same time. And never two teams at the same time. Did he love the game, yup, he was a field rat, with limitations. People for some reason think that because some of us don't or didn't have our kids play as much as them, they didn't love it as much as theirs.  I get that.  

 

Don't be upset, we are just trying to help you, as I said its much easier to look in the rear view mirror. 

 

Those pitchers that let their sons pitch, are they current pitchers or ones that played for a long period of time or short?

 

When people talk about what about the guys who pitched tons of innings, one of sons pcoaches in milb was Dennis Martinez (2 seasons). Dennis is a recovering alcoholic. He told the boys to get through a game he popped pills and then drank to go to sleep. His son is a pitcher, he didnt begin to pitch until later just before HS, and his dad made him go to college.  These guys just don't want their teens having shoulder or TJS. 

 

I agree with bulldog, when does a parent learn to say no. I understand we had to do it. With all we didnt do, he had issues. If you saw my son you would understand, perfect pitchers frame, excellent mechanics.  Unfortunetly both of his issues were biological in nature.  He made it through college, he made it through the draft, he made it to the 40 man roster.  He never made it to the ML field, he took it well, but I know how much it bothered him. 

 

But when all was said and done, we could look at ourselves in the mirror and know that, even back then, we did all we could do protect him, that was reasonable in nature. 

 

You don't have to know exactly what it is that makes one player break down and the other doesn't. But that doesn't mean that common sense does not have to prevail.

 

As I posted once my daughters boyfriend had his young son play two very physical sports at the same time. Plus wrestling.  This began at 8. We talked about whether it was healthy or not, to him it was, playing multiple sports would make him a better athlete. Until he was diagnosed with OSD in the knee. He was really devastated that he didn't use common sense and this is a REALLY REALLY smart guy, but IMO didn't know how to say no.

 

Just to be clear, mine did not play baseball in the summer until he reached HS. 

 

JMO for some serious advice. Dont be mad, if you want you can send a pm. 

 

The 90 games was in reference to this season only.  Again he is well within the amsi guidelines.  I DO take every precaution to keep him healthy.   What am I supposed to say no to?  No you can't play AAU basketball?  No you can't play fall ball?  So the amsi puts out these guidelines and even following those isn't enough?  Do we not see at some point it is paranoia?

And I want to quickly add...  we are wrong if we specialize.  We are also wrong if we don't specialize but overlap sports.  As much ad we.may want to we can not bring back the 1950's.  Its a different world.  Other than the naturally gifted of course...  you just can't play a 20 game rec ball schedule anymore and compete.  Thats what the kids who feed our school do.  It ain't working.  The state of wisconsin barely produced any college ballplayers not very long ago.  Now.due.to a few good organizations popping up (one of which my son plays for) there are more college bound players than ever.  Instead of always looking at the negatives of travel ball or showcasing etc.  Lets look at the positives.  Kids do develop this way.  That is a fact.

And while I am at it (on a roll why stop?) When I first got.on this site I said my kid was a borderline kid.  Of.course I expect he could play D3..  who couldn't really?  But when it comes to D1 and certainly beyond there is absolutely nothing to indicate he is a slam dunk for that.  Maybe this is as good as its gonna get for him.  Why not let him enjoy it?

I'm glad I couldn't afford travel ball until my son hit age 12.  From age 7-11 he played 20 games a year.

Its pretty hard to tell what direction a player will go at that age. He could turn out to be one fine young D1 stud.  Right? I had no clue if son would play ball as many years as he did.  

Does ASMI guidelines (they only are guidelines) take into consideration other youth sports played both at the same time? it may not be the right recipe for everyone.

Do you not think that youth sports have become over the top. My sons surgeon sees them at 9 with serious overuse injuries.  Too many overuse injuries.  

 

We are in a discussion, no one is condemning anyone, you are a good webster here, but this is a discussion and whoever reads can take away what they want from it. 

 

What is good for your son may not be good for someone elses.  

Do you follow the guideline of no radar gun?

Boy 2020, I am not sure your comments on Wisconsin are accurate.  For years, that conference has been one of the  strongest in all of D3 baseball-yes, I know, the one where anyone could play.  If you think that, you must know D3 at the bottom, not the top.

This guy was a 2nd round pick out of Stevens Point:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Zimmermann

 

The State of Wisconsin produces many high quality college players. They just don't leave the State and play D1, but many  certainly could. I would strongly support broadening horizons on college baseball.  To provide a current illustration, one of the top 10-15 Summer Wood Bat League teams in being led in many offensive categories and games played by a high quality D3 outfielder. Every other player on that team is from a D1 program most would consider top 25-50. Why not grab your son at the end of next May and head to Appleton, Wisc and watch some D3 college CWS baseball. It might be good for both of you.

I have a pocket radar you know that.  But I actually use it very sparingly and often to see when he has lost velocity and maybe needs to come out.  One thing a lot.of people agree on is pitching fatigued is a big issue.  Look like I said before I honor all opinions.  There is just so much conflicting research and so little known still at this point.  Back to the original point I just don't think specialization is inherently bad or causes injury in and of itself.  The key is that we all do the best we can.  Again my son does NOT specialize but I support the rights of those that do.

The reflex answer to that question is, "the 94% of high school varsity players who do not play college baseball." But I acknowledge that some of those players could play, but choose not to.

 

The more complete answer is that, yes, there are some D3 programs where just about anyone could make the team.  Of course, to do so, you first have to get into a real hard school (e.g., Cal Tech) or be willing to go to a school in the middle of nowhere (e.g., Maine-Presque Isle) or feel comfortable at a small school with a heavy religious emphasis.

 

However, if you're talking about baseball at a reasonably competitive D3, the answer to "who couldn't really?" quickly gets back a lot closer to that 94% of high school varsity baseball players. And if you're talking about the D3's that contend for the postseason, the answer is an even higher percentage of high school players who really couldn't.

Sully took a player from WI to pitch at Clemson, Jason Berken.

He played football as well. Had to delay his pro career due to TJS in college. 

 

I heard that he runs some great camp programs up that way.

http://fox11online.com/news/ma...ifference-in-de-pere

       
       
No doubt there is a big disparity between top level D3's and bottom level.  But overall there were 11 drafted this year and 15 last year.  Not a track record that screams 'lots of great players'.  Some really good players no doubt.  But most.of.those kIds who stayed in state did so because they couldn't/didn't get recruited at the D1 level.  Yes there are exceptions but that is the rule.  Now more and more wisconsin kids are going D1.  And there are plenty left for.the other levels too.  Point is its getting better.  And playing more baseball has been part of that.  And TPM obviously I hope my son achieves his dreams and does become a big time D1 player.  He has just enough ability and a lot.of size where at least it is a possibility.  But what I don't want to do is put him in that bubble wrap hoping for that...  then it doesn't happen and he never gets to play the amount of baseball he would have liked.  Believe me I do listen to everyone when it comes to avoiding injury.  Nobody wants that.  We just do the best we can.

       
       
well said.  Agree with every word.

Oh well??

2020, check the number of players drafted or selected as free agents from Trinity University in the last 3-4 years and compare it with D1 programs ranked 125-300, if that is the measure of "great players" and "great baseball."

I think the obvious answer is you want your son to be a top D1 player.  I hope that happens for him.

 

       
       
we would all like our kids to be top D1 players.  I am certainly not banking on that.  And if my son plays D3 - any level - I will be there watching him enjoy himself.

Don't forget NAIA.    

I know two kids off of my son's team high school team that started their freshman year at a NAIA baseball school.  

 It is certainly true that very few draft picks come out of D3 each year,  Still, I think you are both underestimating  how good what you call the "really good" but not great players who play at the top of  D3 are and maybe overestimating just  a tad the number of D1 players who live up to your standard of being "really great"   -- at least if by really great you mean players who get drafted. Though a lot more D1 players than D3 players get drafted,  you know it's also the case that FAR  from the majority of D1 players get drafted.  In 2013,for example,  just over 500 D1 players were drafted (roughly  60% were juniors and the other 40% were seniors).  There are just over 10,000 D1 players.  Not sure how many are draft eligible at any one time.  But let's say roughly half.  That's 1 in 10 of the draft eligible players getting drafted.   So by your measure, 90% of D1 players are not great either, right?  A significant thing about D1 is that talent is clearly not evenly distributed throughout D1.  UCLA for example had 8 guys drafted this year,I think,  but Butler had none.  If fact, Butler has had fewer guys drafted over time than Trinity University has.  Sure, there's a lot of distance between Butler and UCLA.  But that's my point in a way.   Probably Butler is closer to Trinity University than it is to UCLA in the level of baseball played there, I would guess.  Not sure, but I would  guess (though not be willing to place a bet on the proposition)  that by far the majority of the D1 draft picks come from, say,  the top 25% of D1 schools.

 

 

My statement was not intended to hurt anyone's feelings.  Just recognizing (as has been pointed out on this site before) that any player who really wants to continue their baseball career in college probably has an opportunity to do so somewhere.  That 94% thing is misleading. That's all.  And yes I do have a high bar for the word 'great'.  And yes I am sure there are a lot of D1 players who also don't meet that definition.  However if we take the D1 guys who quit after freshman year out of the equation I think you will find that a lot more than 1 of 10 get drafted.  How many juniors and seniors do you think are left on D1 teams?  It is not an even distribution among the four classes.  It is a much greater accomplishment to play D1 ball.  I will certainly not be ashamed if my son plays D3 and I think that is how my words are being misinterpreted.   That somehow I am looking down my nose at D3.  If some day my son plays for Whitewater or Stevens Point I will be very excited for him.  I will be his #1 fan just like if he accomplished the goal of going to his dream school.  Next year I am not coaching so some baseball season time will clear up.  Between my sons schedule and my own there is very little time to go to college games.  We saw one small college game last year and carved out time for a few D1 games.  But I promise you I will make my best effort to go see some high levwl D3 play next season.  I am sure that will be a lot of fun.

Sorry for the late response, school started today, lots of stuff to do!

 

To answer your question PGStaff, yes MANY children under the age of 14 "specialize" in one sport, and especially in the Atlanta Area.  I think the word specialize is too specific though, I know in my kids case he picked up a baseball at age 6 and by age 9 he was on a year round team because that is what he enjoyed, and what he continues to enjoy.  I have made it clear on multiple occasions that I would be happy to take him to football, basketball, soccer...and buy whatever, but he LOVES baseball.  He might play a pick up game in the neighborhood of football or soccer, but he's not interested in getting on a team.

 

FWIW, we didn't allow our LHP son to play year round ball until sophomore yr in HS. He thought we were being overly cautious/insert nasty-slang-term here. We knew his physique/velocity was not 'projectable' D1 level and, fortunately, we, the parents, didn't have to say one thing b/c experience in Atlanta as rising junior eventually made it clear. (Whew!) That said, he had serious looks by our local high D2 school. He will be playing high D3 next year (assuming a good fall work-out). Though not a brilliant student, he received a LOT of merit aid (the best kind there is!). I think it worked out beautifully. He didn't flame out in middle school. He didn't flame out in high school. And he gets a chance to play ball in college.

 

Why didn't we let him play year round? My better half knows Andrews and when our kid was 11-ish was told the stats about year-rounders. Yes, there are always outliers but the chances of injury skyrocket with year-round play. Also, re specialization: my player and his buddies didn't do multiple high school team sports but do a LOT of physical activity: wake boarding, snowboarding, scuba, ultimate frisbee, etc. They just came back from their 4th 5+hr day hike in our local mtns. 

 

The small, small, SMALL percentage of players going on to play high-level D1ball (and further) are, in my mind, the outliers. The bulk of our kids are regular kids with a cool chance to play a fun sport in college. Our job as parents is to remember that. 

Okay this is what I don't get!  You admit your kid isn't D1 material.  You admit the D1 guys are the outliers that can handle year round ball.  Yet, based on the advice of Dr. Andrews you wouldn't allow a 11 year old...a 12...a 13 year old to play baseball, which he loved, with his buddies year round...all to protect his arm which you knew wasn't D1 material.

 

Okay, to me this says you robbed your kid of the doing what he loves on the off chance he would hurt himself....I'd like to refer you back to the wrapped in a bubble comment by 2020dad.

it's true that many things cut down the number of upperclassmen on D1 rosters -- the draft being one of them. Some of the power schools seem to lose a significant chunk of their junior class each year to the draft.  Then there are injuries, on and off the field failure, and burn-out.  So you're right that it probably isn't right to think of 1/2 of D1 rosters as consisting of draft eligible juniors and seniors.  But still, even if you take account of attrition, I would bet it's still true that the VAST majority of D1 players don't get drafted. 

 

Here's a somewhat random sample -- trying to pick a range of schools -- and how many of their draft eligible players got drafted in 2015. 

 

• Of the 21 draft eligible players at the University of Notre Dame this year exactly 1 got drafted. 
• Of the 20 draft eligible players at Ohio State 4 got drafted
• Of the 17 draft eligible players at Cal State Long Beach 2 got drafted.
• Of the  9 draft eligible players at Vanderbilt,  all 9 got drafted.  (wow) 
• Of the 13 draft eligible players at Umass Amherst, 0 got drafted. 

 

That's  5 schools from different parts of the country, with 80 total draft eligible players, of whom 16 got drafted -- over half of them from a single power house school.  If that pattern generalizes over the roughly 300 D1 schools that means on the order of 20% will get drafted.   Of course, as you yourself point out, the attrition along the way is not insignificant.  So even if you land a D1 spot, you have to run the gauntlet before becoming draft eligible. 

 

Caco I hope they are talking about actually playing competitve games year round.  And pitching competitively year round.  But it is confusing because even in your climate do you know anyone who actually does this?  But as far as being involved in a 12 month a year program - part games, part practice, part strength and fitness - I don't see that as an issue.  I get the words of caution.  Nobody knows for sure what causes one kid to get injured and the other to not.  So caution is great.  But when it gets to statements like 'parents need to be parents' and 'our job as parents is' now I take exception.  I would never dream of telling someone else how to parent their children.  Its like that aunt or uncle who scolds their niece or nephew and talks behind the back of their brother/sister about what poor parents they are.  Everybody has a different value system.  We need to respect everyone's parenting without calling them wrong.  Seems like every specialization debate I wind up in this argument.  And my kid doesn't specialize.  But if he walked up to me tomorrow and said "dad I want to stop playing basketball and just focus on baseball" what am I supposed to say?  "No son I can't allow you to do that because it would bring me heavy criticism on HSBBW"???  Ok sorry, a little sarcastic there but really can't people just make their own choices without being horrible parents?

If your son wanted to specialize in baseball only then just tell him to specialize for six to seven months. If my son decided to focus on one sport there would definitely be at least a four month downtime

       
       
Remember one thing though...  its like the odds of rolling a three on a dice.  Its 6 t o 1 of course.  But if you roll it twice its 3 to 1.  Not a math teacher and I am sure in statistics and probability it is much more complicated than that.  But remember those draft eligible juniors have another shot as seniors!  So now that 20% becomes closer to 40%!  That's getting pretty large.  In fact I think the 1 in 5 is pretty large.  Go to baseball cube and look up 2010 rosters.  The smoke has cleared there.  And see how many kids eventually got drafted.  Now you will have to do a little work filtering out those who quit after their freshman or sophomore season but even if you leave them in it might be in that 20 or 30% range.  That's still pretty impressive.  Now.if we had the means and will power to some how sort it to guys who played...  like starters and pitchers who threw significant innings I bet that number would be astonishing.  Fact of the matter is if you are fortunate enough to be a D1 starter your chances of being drafted are pretty darn good.

       
       
Keep in mind part of this time is strength and fitness only.  but a baseball specific program.  Of course he usually hits in the cage some while he is there.  We do take at least three months a year with little or no throwing.  But that is our way not the only way.  Why would you need down time?  Burnout?  Most of these guys in our program...  I can not describe for you how in to baseball they are.  A sheer love of the game.  And I witness no burnout that I am aware of.  If burnout is a concern for your kid then give him the down time.  If my son says he needs a break from baseball then he will get it.  He drives the bus.  But when he wants to go hit or something we jump in the car and go to the facility.

 Uh, this  sampling includes both Juniors and Seniors.  20% of ALL draft eligible players -- including both juniors and seniors -- got drafted at these  five schools.  So your reasoning doesn't really apply.   Plus you do know, don't you, that seniors tend to go a lot lower in the draft and have a lot less leverage?

"  Fact of the matter is if you are fortunate enough to be a D1 starter your chances of being drafted are pretty darn good."

 

Only if you play in a top 75-100 of the 300 D1 programs.  You can do the math and find information on the internet. The vast majority of D1 drafted players come from top 100 programs.

I mightily apologize b/c I think my last comment was sorta misinterpreted to imply 'bad parents'. Not at all!! What I mean is that as parents, our job is definitely to make sure they know all about those wonderful odds! And play them according to the hand you are dealt. In our house, we don't second guess ourselves about whether by limiting his playing time we decreased his odds of getting to the D1 level or decreased his amount of fun 'cuz we sure had ourselves a bucket of fun doing the two summers of traveling to college camps and showcases and such. That was really a TON of fun and worth the money and time, etc. I really only want to chime in on the hazards of too much ball on a developing young man's body. And, well, my kid has a Dad who operates on young men with bad shoulder and arm injuries, so yeah, in our house, we definitely erred on the side of caution. Enjoy the moment everyone! It passes soooooo darn fast...

I think the point about juniors and seniors is that some of the juniors who aren't drafted this year will be drafted next year, so the number of players drafted, overall, from a given set of players (the set consisting of seniors and draft-eligible juniors) is a bit higher.

Overall, though, the point is correct that of course most D1 baseball players are not drafted, and, in addition, most of those who are drafted receive very modest signing bonuses.

I'm just reading this, so maybe it's been addressed. ASMI's studies did not, in any way, deal with "properly thrown" curveballs - only "self reported" curves. That means that even when included curves thrown with what some would consider bad mechanics, the curve ball was found to be a non-factor as compared to fatigue and overuse. Nissen, in fact, showed the curve to provide LESS stress than the fastball. I think it's time we lose the arguments concerning a "correctly thrown" curve versus a "poorly thrown" one. I think what you will find, though, is that the curve (and change, as well) is thrown with lower peak valgus angle (arm layback) than the fastball and this may well be a major contributor to elbow injuries. When trying to pinpoint pronation v. supination as a factor in elbow wear and tear, I believe we may be looking in the wrong place.

I've made this argument before, but think it again relevant. Heredity may be a big factor. Here's my theory (based on very little, admittedly). In the past, pitchers took on heavy workloads. How many of us remember the days when no one even thought about counting pitches and LL and high school teams would trot the same pitcher out inning after inning all season?  It's my belief that in the "good ole days" only those genetically able to withstand such a pounding made it to the Big Leagues. The rest fell to the wayside with injuries and quite pitching early in their careers - long before reaching pro ball. Today, we do a better job of protecting arms. As a result, many pitchers who do not have the genetic makeup of which I speak get farther into their careers than their genetic makeup previously would have allowed. Guys like Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson probably could have thrown 200 pitches a game every four or five days for years with little injury risk. Guys like Kerry Wood probably not. By restricting young pitchers, we've greatly increased the pool of guys who can throw 90+ by keeping them healthier for longer periods of time. that's a good thing.

I'm struggling with this one, 2020. Why should we respect everyone's parenting?

 

Obviously you mean within reason, I'm sure -- but still. Think about how many REALLY AWFUL parents there are in this world. We have laws to protect children from bad parents, for goodness' sake!

 

By the same logic, I think it's incumbent on parents who've been there ... to point out where they think parents of ball players are wrong -- based on their experiences. When someone thinks I'm wrong about how I'm handling my son's baseball experience, I want to know it.

 

Then it's up to me to weigh that against my own experiences, beliefs, etc.

I guess I should have been even more precise and actually referenced some of the articles which use the phrase "thrown with proper mechanics."

 

Also, based on the 2014 published article by Yang, et.al. the youth curve ball is not fully exonerated.

 

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content...46514524699.abstract

"Nearly 70% of the sample reported throwing curveballs, which was associated with 1.66 (95% CI = 1.09-2.53) greater odds of experiencing arm pain while throwing."

 

 

 

You have to be careful with abstracts. I have the entire study if you want it (just PM me). The study was very careful to point out that while increased use of the curve did increase reports of pain, that this increase in reported pain did not apparently mean much since it did not coincide with any increase in injury risk.

I think the wisdom of the parents on this site that have been there and done that is invaluable.  I also think that several on here think that the way THEY chose to do it is the ONLY correct way to do it...and I think that is where 2020 is taking offense.  It's like saying only party X knows how to run the government and only religion Y worships correctly....parenting has no manual and we are all likely screwing it up in some way, or have already. 

Now THERE ... you are right, Caco. There are definitely moms and dads here who think they know it all because their sons made it to a certain level. And yes, they can be blunt to the point of ineffectiveness. But most aren't like that, and I just wanted to be clear: We sometimes ARE WRONG as parents. Or we WONDER if we're wrong. That's why we're here!

 

So being challenged as wrong is to be expected. After all -- feedback is a gift.

 

 

roothog66,

 

That is some real good stuff! IMO

 

You know I have heard from an extremely reliable source that there are hundreds of surgeons today capable of performing TJ surgery.

 

My biggest issue remains this... Everyone seems to agree that fatigue and over use is the biggest factor for all these injuries. I love having rules that help prevent some of the abusive pitch counts and lack of recovery time. 

 

However, we all also know that every pitcher is different.  The fatigue doesn't set in at the same time for every pitcher.  So how do we protect the kid that is totally fatigued after throwing 50 pitches, when the rules say he can throw 100 pitches?

 

So having guidelines are great and very helpful, it will actually take more than rules to keep everyone health or at least most pitchers healthy. It takes someone, coach, parent, etc., that takes the time to watch closely and determine what that pitcher is capable of and when he reaches his "personal" danger zone. When fatigue sets in!  Then we know that number of pitches he should throw for now until he develops more stamina and can throw a higher number.

 

Because of what we do, we see lots of pitchers.  We have seen pitchers that have had TJ surgery that never once threw what anyone would consider too many pitches.  So I have to believe that not every pitcher was born with an equal UCL.  I mean can't we just look at each other and see the differences?  

 

I totally respect Doc Andrews and everything he says.  He and his staff probably knows more about TJ surgery than anyone on earth.  That said, I feel like there is still a lot that is unknown. In the meantime all people can do is use common sense and at least follow some guidelines.  That is why PitchSmart is important, it at least gives some guidelines that will help many young pitchers.

I probably depose as many doctors as most so I fully appreciate what you are saying. I also understand that the UCL is most often a cumulative wear and tear deterioration.  There can also be issues with lawyers being doctors, and doctors trying to be lawyers in my experience, although both can create a lot of interesting things when they occur.

Many can read the same articles and come to different conclusions. This is one which would vary from the views that even an improperly thrown curveball has no risk:

 

"

 

I do agree that we have to also be careful with how we talk about pitching. To say curveballs are safe is, indeed, misleading. Pitching is not a safe activity. The article you linked concerning mechanics is as close as I've seen to something that agrees with my own views. My point - and belief - has and is that we are concentrating on some of the wrong areas. I think pitch type is way down the list of things that contribute to arm problems. I believe one of the biggest fixable factors, for example, to be late external rotation (the main problem with the inverted W). However, I'm also convinced that one of the biggest problems is extreme peak valgus angles in arm layback and, unfortunately, I don't believe this is a mechanical flaw. I think it is a mechanical peculiarity that is the biggest factor in velocity that can't be changed without decreasing velocity.

I think, however, that one thing that never seems to be emphasized is that the current pitch count guidelines are really meant to protect arms from the extreme situations. In the end, it's up to individual coaches (and parents) to closely monitor their pitchers so that they understand what limits and restrictions apply individually to their pitcher. I often see coaches who lean on these guidelines and substitute them for their own judgment. They seem to operate under the notion that as long as they stay within the guidelines, they've done their job. Unfortunately, there are a lot of kids being coached by staffs with no qualified pitching coach onboard. I see this A LOT at the high school level.

One more thing... I'm actually very thankful for TJ surgery.  It was the only reason my son got to continue his career.  I realize some don't fully recover, but I also know that many do. None of them would have in days days before TJ surgery.

 

Once again I only have a problem with the word epidemic.  John Smoltz was the very first TJ surgery to become a hall of famer.  Would he be a hall of famer today without TJ surgery? For sure, he won't be the last.

 

If there were no TJ surgery, there wouldn't be a TJ epidemic, would there?   It would just be like the old days when you blew out the arm you were done.

 

So I look at TJ surgery as a blessing in some ways.  Sure it's still terrible and you wouldn't wish it on anyone, but because of modern medicine it doesn't have to be the end.  Surely no one really thinks Tommy John was the first pitcher to ever have a UCL problem? The injury didn't start with him, the solution started with him. And now we are having pitchers get the surgery, that would have just kept throwing until it gave away completely, in the old days.  Then their career was over!  They weren't part of any epidemic, they were just done!

 

 

PG,

This information from  recent 2015 study might help better localize the medical concern and focus, which is on TJ for the population aged 15-19.  The study describes a "staggering" increase in the numbers for ages 15-19, and is also interesting in suggesting how misinformed so many are about the issue of overuse and TJ:

 

http://www.rushortho.com/pdf/E...n-UCLR-AJSM-2015.pdf

 

To address the issues which both you and Roothog have about TJ not being possible until recently, it appears the authors intend to do further analysis comparing TJ and ACL repairs in the involved age group of 15-19, since both are pretty new in the spectrum of successful surgeries amd sports injuries.

These authors conclude the rise in numbers for ages 15-19 needs to correlate with greater education and a better understanding of risk reduction, which hopefully some of these discussions will provide for those with son's ages 10-19.

I think, too often, the media tries to make sense of the rise in TJ surgeries. In doing so, they tend to try to use it in a way which doesn't work from a logic standpoint. An increase in TJ surgeries from 2007 to 2015 can only be used as evidence of one conclusion - TJ surgeries are on the rise. Take note that I didn't say it is proof that UCL injuries are on the rise. That may or may not be true, but the rise in reported reconstructions cannot logically be used to support that argument. It would be the equivalent of arguing that heart disease is greatly on the rise since 1982 by pointing to the staggering increase in artificial heart implants. It just doesn't work. In fact, I would venture to say that there is no way to settle this particular argument. It's a reporting problem. Prior to the last 10-15 years, most torn UCLs most likely didn't even result in a visit to a specialist. You threw out your arm, you either tried to pitch through it or you quit pitching. I knew lots of kids in the 80's that probably suffered torn ucls, but they didn't even visit a doctor, yet alone a surgeon. Their careers were simply over. Today, we do a better job with young pitchers. A sore elbow leads to - at the very least - a doctor visit. However, this increase in reporting makes it impossible to compare numbers concerning reported incidents of injury from 1990 and 2015 in a way that gives us any truly useful information. All we can do is continue to be vigilant and cautious. However, we spend too much time trying to compare incomparable statistics when we should be focused on prevention.

Infielddad,

 

Thank you for that link.  

 

I'm curious as to how many of the TJ surgeries involved baseball.  I would imagine a very high percentage, though I have heard about TJ involving other sports.  Also noticed a number of females listed in their discovery.  I have not ever heard of a female, softball player or otherwise, that had TJ surgery.  Of course, that doesn't mean anything, there are lots of things I don't know.

 

i would like to know if sports like tennis have many TJ surgeries?  Seems logical they would.  

 

The 15 to 19 ages don't surprise me, but I wish they separated it a bit more.  I would think there are many more from 17 to 18 than from 15 to 16.  Still very good stuff, thank you.

 

I would love to see more surveys and studies.  And for sure prevention is important.

 

This thread has posts which could be interpreted to argue there is no "increase" in TJ from 40 years ago other than the surgery exists,  so everything being done now is just fine, when we both agree that is not the case.

Don't you think 50% of HS athletes and over 30% of coaches and even more

parents thinking TJ is a proper prophylactic treatment  is somewhat alarming?(without attempting to alarm!)

Both you and PG are very persuasive and respected on this site. I think many could read this thread and come away with  the view that TJ is just "part of baseball" and nothing should change because UCL tears have always been part of baseball.

That may not be your intent and I can tell from our last exchanges that is not your perspective.  However, if over 50% of HS players and almost 40% of parents believe TJ should be done on a prophylactic basis, more and better education about TJ and the risks needs to occur.

Good for you Al Pal!  

No one knows at 9, 10, 11, 12 or even 15 or 16  what division a player may qualify for but you knew that your son might one day play at the next level and you did what you did based on credible info you received from Doc Andrews.  This has nothing to do with what division or level but avoiding injury to youth players.

Not understand why some just don't get that.

 

Don't make someone who hasn't had their son make it even to HS yet, tell you that you denied him anything or what you did was wrong.

 

Best of luck to your son!

My major concern is that too much time is spent trying to explain "why" TJ surgeries are up. They are on the rise because we perform more of them. Instead of asking that question, I believe we should ignore that particular question and instead focus on the question, "what mechanical deficiencies actually contribute to ucl damage?" More studies on mechanics and their physical forces would be a lot more useful than arguments based on comparative data that is logically flawed.

 

His speech was not about a professional pitcher having TJS, its about kids having TJS.

There is a very big difference.

Maybe I am sending the wrong signal. I do believe that ucl tears have always been part of the game and I suspect that the problem is no worse - and perhaps even not as bad - as it was in the past. However, it was a problem then and it is a problem now. It is a problem that was not adequately addressed in 1950 or 1970 or 1980 and it's not being adequately addressed in 2015. More real study needs to be done. I mean real study and not vague statistical analysis. We have the means to break down pitching mechanics and measure the forces applied, yet we've been slow about doing it. I think, if anything, that's the real tragedy here - that we drag our feet. I applaud organizations like ASMI,  ut what studies we've seen so far are only the very beginning of what needs to be done.

If it is true that 40% of parents truly believe TJ should be done on a prophylactic basis, why would they care about mechanics and prevention.

Doesn't the message have to be understood that TJ is a significant surgery, not always successful, can take 12-18 months for recovery and involves risks post TJ, to drive home a different message than even coaches currently ,so that there is a fundamental change belief systems in up to 90 to 95% of the  baseball population which appears to be most at risk?

Stated in a different way, why would a coach, HS player or parent of a HS player focus on prevention and mechanics if the player is successful with poor mechanics and lots of "innings" and work and they believe TJ is a good prophylactic treatment?

I know you "got it" but how do we get the other close to 50% to "get it" or do we?

True and I haven't addressed that part of the article yet. Maybe because I find it hard to fathom that people actually think like that. I just find it hard to wrap my head around. I think maybe those numbers a re a little outdated because that very issue was discussed a lot in the media early last year. At least I hope that data is old. I guess the remaining problem would be how do you go about educating people on this?

By doing the studies and authoring the articles you don't like? 

By and large, I have tremendous respect for our medical system, but that does not mean everyone in the system and the medical system is so large, the number of those who might be questioned is a growing population.

While it is hard to imagine, some articles a year or two ago confirmed ortho's were doing TJ, prophylatically. 

Infielddad,

 

I sure don't want anyone to think I feel TJ surgery is just part of baseball and just fine.  In fact, everything I have mentioned is about protecting pitchers and coaches and parents needing to get involved.  The example I gave about the 100 pitch limit and the kid that shouldn't go past 50 is all about prevention. I've said over and over that I love the PitchSmart Guidelines.  We actually use them!  Surgery, of any kind, is not something anyone wishes for.

 

Now if you are referring to my problem with labeling this issue as an epidemic, my question would be... Is this an epidemic?  

 

You are correct when you say there are people out there that think TJ surgery is an easy fix.  Personally, I think that helps raise the numbers because some feel if there is any doubt, lets get the surgery done now.  Years ago it would take total loss of the UCL, now it is done with partial damage.  Surely that increases the numbers.  Surely the fact there are hundreds of surgeons, rather than one or two only a few years ago, that can perform the surgery must mean something.  

 

I believe 100% that prevention is important.  Always have!  Never wavered from that view.  So I don't wish to be portrayed as someone that ino simply OK with everything.

 

That said, I also agree with the viewpoints that roothog has brought up.  In fact, I don't know how anyone can even argue them.  And nowhere has he hinted that everything is OK.

 

 

       
       


I choose to think of my kid first and foremost as a KID, secondly as a baseball player. Silly me!

Just an FYI, sons surgeon did indicate that there are many parents out there that don't care because they know there is a "cure". 

The whole point is about educating parents on major surgeries on the rotator cuff and ulnar ligament. They have absolutely no idea of what is involved AFTER the surgery takes place.  

If anyone can pull up JH's blog on his TJS recovery, that is just the tip of the iceberg. Any parent who thinks that its ok to overuse their pitcher because they can have an operation has no business being a parent. 

 

That's how you see it, but anyone having major surgery is not something any parent wants to see their KID go threw, no matter what age his is. 

You have to stop justifying what you chose to do, that is your choice, and any consequence is on you.  Dont blame it on denying your child, it wont kill kids to have their wishes denied at some point in their lives.

I know that you have stated many times that your son wants to play college ball. I think you are trying to shoot higher for him and the "let him do what he wants to" is just an excuse parents use because they have absolutely no control over the word, no.

 

Plus, there is a lot of pressure from the smiths and jones. 

 

So what happens when your son reaches the most important time in the college recruiting process and he gets hurt, do you think any coach is going to give him a scholarship? 

"I choose to think of my kid first and foremost as a KID, secondly as a baseball player."

 

I think I understand what you're saying, Caco: Don't rob him of his childhood! And I AGREE! My ONLY goal for JP always has been to develop and maintain a love for this great game. After that, whatever happens, happens.

 

BUT ... if you have a son whose passion for pitching is so strong that he wants to become an MLB pitcher, and others see potential ... don't you HAVE to step in and -- using all available science -- tell him NO sometimes, so that he can achieve his dream? 

 

I guess my point is: Let kids be kids -- but if they have their eye on a man's game, and show the potential to make it ... step in. 

 

Because IF later, his arm is shot and he cannot pitch in the MLB, telling him "I was letting you be a kid" will offer little comfort.

Oh boy.  Had a long day and trying to catch up on this one made my head hurt...  I just want to summarize my thoughts.  And I am not an idiot.  I have coached many years before I became a parent.  You don't have to have an adult child to 'know things'.  So here gies:

1.) No sane person WANTS their kid to have TJS.
2.) Parenting IS an individual decision - yes provided the parents are not commiting crimes!
3.) None of us ha b e the key to wisdom
4.) I do believe the people on here believe in their heart they are helping
5.) I do listen, I really do.  But ultimately I have to make my own decision as a parent.
6.) No I will not stand for someone criticizing my parental decisions.  I don't do it to others and I won't stand still for it to be done to me.
7.) I do follow amsi guidelines not because it is the end all be all but because it seems to be the best we got eight now.
8.) Yes the radar gun part of that is an exception for me.  Yes I think its stupid.  And no i don't care if some pretigious doctor said it.  It doesn't make sense.  As has been stated many times here long before radar guns we threw the ball as hard as we could every pitch.
9.) I still know of nobody who PLAYS GAMES year round.
10.) No I am not going to tell my son 'no' about what HE wants to do about his sport choices.  Then I will just be ripped on some other thread for living vicariously and all that BS because I am not 'letting my kid be a kid' and play what He wants because after all its about him not about dad!  You see we can't have it both ways.  We can't change.our opinions based upon the current debate.

       
       
JP you seem to be handling this debate in a civil and sincere way.  Thanks.  (Or maybe I jist haven't had time to read all your posts yet lol.)  So I ask you sincerely, and I think this is where we are confused...  what are we supposed to say no to?  I don't think caco, me or anyone else promotes their kid playing games 365 or pitching year round.  So what are we supposed to say no to?  I ask sincerely not sarcastically.

Thanks for the kind words, 2020. 

 

I'm not a pitcher's dad, so know that. But as I posted earlier, I'm the dad of a boy who from a young age played a LOT. His teams won all the 'important stuff' -- USSSA, Super Series, Triple Crown (broadcast on CBC Sports - big WOW! at the time). Even Cooperstown.

 

What I've observed over the past seven years is that boys who PITCHED from a young age, and had a lot of potential, invariably pitched too much. Not in a single tournament ... or a single game ... but cumulatively. 

 

So ... if I had a son today who pitched (even if I didn't expect him to be great, but who LOVED to pitch) ... I guess I'd find a cap I was comfortable with in terms of number of pitches thrown in a calendar year, then make sure whoever coached him accepted that cap, and pitched him accordingly.

 

And I'd explain to my son that what matters isn't how many 13-year-olds he beats -- but how many 18-38-year olds he may some day beat! I'd tell him to go do something else for awhile! NO ONE wants to be one-dimensional anyway!

 

Yes -- it may mean fewer trophies, but friend ... with a son who'll leave us here in Texas next year to go to Oregon to play baseball, I can tell you: ALL THAT MATTERS is that he still loves this game.

 

What about just playing a position and not pitch for a season?

 

I don't think kids should be specializing in a position anyway because when they get to HS they most likely will be pitchers only (if that is their position the coach sees him at). That is when it really counts and that is where you as parents begin to lose control. 

Control it now while you can.

 

You know I am mot sure why I even bother to give advice, regardless of tone, which is very hard to decipher on a message board, but I am not a fluff kind of person. I just give advice because I dont want anyone to go through what son has had to go through and missed time being on the DL.

 

I am done here, you all can figure it out on your own.

Even if a  kid never plays another game after high school -- which most kids don't -- I would think  you  still don't want the kid damaging his arm from overuse.   It's not just about making sure they don't burn out before getting that big D1 scholarship.  When they are young they feel so indestructible.  They  have so little judgment.  They  so want to please their teammates, their coaches, their parents. 

 

TPM have you had a change of heart on pitching? Earlier in the year you stated if a coach asks a player to pitch he should pitch for the good of the team. My youngest son had arm issues 2 years ago and we've asked coaches not to pitch him or pitch him very little over the last 2 seasons. I'm not looking to stir things up just truly wondering if your views have changed.

Stuck,

In the event that TPM has left the building for the moment, I'll answer for her.  I have followed and appreciated TPM's solid, direct advice for some time.  This current thread has evolved a bit from specialization to injury risk.  I would be quite surprised (OK, shocked) if she made any such comment in the context of arm care/safety.  In another context, perhaps.

 

Not really sure what this comment is supposed to mean when it comes to this issue.   Are you suggesting that people who worry about overuse injuries in kids are seeing their kids primarily as baseball players rather than as kids.   If so, I don't really follow your logic.  Actually,  it seems to me the other way around.  Putting limits on a kid,  for the kid's own sake, especially when the kid is brimming with enthusiasm, but lacks mature judgment and experience, is what you do when you see the kid as a kid first and foremost. 

There was no arm care issues it was about Caco's son not wanting to pitch anymore because he would sit on the bench afterwards. That's why I thought there was a view change. I truly am curious to know because I think she does bring a lot of knowledge. For the record I think MLB disagrees with the Hal of Fame speech due to the fact of how many warm weather kids they draft compared to the cold weather kids. That's for positional players not pitchers.

       
       
Thanks JP.  And now I can happily say I am in full agreement with your specific concerns.  I talked to coaches before season about limits I am comfortable with.  I think they respected those wishes and only once pushed the envelop and I politely stepped in.  As I have said we stayed.well within amsi guidelines.  Your son seems to hae been on a powerhouse team.  We have picked up a few new kids for next year - all pitchers, legit.pitchers - so workload should be very tolerable next year.  Not sure we will be as good as your team but we should be pretty good.  Won't have to lean too heavily on any one pitcher.

You took what I said out of context. Being asked to pitch and not wanting to is completely different than being asked to pitch too much.

 

Sorry, that's why I asked.

 

Actually, if I remember correctly, Dr. Andrews says that he is doing a lot more 14-15 year olds. Which is downright scary. I've heard him speak a handful of times and he doesn't talk about surgery or rehabilitation in most of his talks. He talks about prevention. 

Could be, but we see many more kids over the age of 16 receiving TJ surgery.

 

i would be interested in knowing how many that contribute here know of kids having TJ surgery before the age of 16.  Compared to how many they might know about after the age of 16.

 

I'm sure it happens, but I don't know of, or have heard of, anyone 15 years old receiving TJ surgery.  I know about a hundred or more over the age of 16.  Must admit I tend to follow this much closer in the older age groups.

 

I'm not sure it means much, TJ surgery at any age is a big problem. It's a good thing that it is available these days, but I wouldn't wish it on anyone. 

To recap, Al Pal stated that "we didn't allow our LHP son to play year round ball until sophomore yr in HS" ...the key word being PLAY.  We can ALL go overboard with protecting arms in case the kid can make it to the next level or we can use common sense, try to go by pitch smart guidelines, and let the kids be kids.  I will not stop my son from being on a baseball team at age 11/12/13 year round with his buddies because he loves the game. 

 

My son pitches, but he doesn't want to ever be a PO.  He has played on a year long travel team from age 9 to his current almost 13, once again the team is together for a year, but they do not play all year, and not to tempt fate here but he has not had any medical issues.  If and when he does, because I do acknowledge that all athletes get hurt at some point, I will evaluate then where to go from there.  Until then, he is a KID first who loves to PLAY baseball, and I will not say "You can't be on a year round team because there is the possibility of you hurting your arm."

 

I want to let my kid be a KID first and a ball player second.  My number one priority is to keep him healthy because he is my child, not keep his arm healthy because he is a pitcher.

 

 

 

 

Root hog...sent u a pm

I don't really have any idea what you mean by "going overboard with protecting arms."

 

You say you'll worry about injury when and if the injury happens.  But the thing is that some injury may well be happening to your son in slow burn  already.  That's because some injuries are the  result of cumulative overuse that may seem no biggie along the way.   The kid feels fine all along the way, right up until the point that he doesn't. THen something snaps and the kid is never quite the same again.  When it finally happens, he may think it was something he did in the moment that caused the injury, that it was just bad luck or a bad day or something -- when in reality he's been in the process of injuring himself for years and years.   So I don't think one can really judge on the basis of how a kid feels at each given moment whether he's injuring himself or not.   It's like when I had a bad back problem, apparently out of the blue, with no particular traumatic event occurring.  I told my doctor,  "I didn't do anything. It just started hurting out of the blue."  She said,  "you've been doing it for 20 years, and just haven't noticed until now."  

 

Plus, you know,  it's  not just a matter of "protecting arms in case the kid make it to the next level."  It's a matter of protecting young arms period -- even if the kid lacks the talent and drive to ever "make it to the next level"  you STILL don't want to abuse the kid's arm.  Those injuries that we suffer in youth have a way of having lingering effects far beyond youth.  

 

As I said above, kids lack judgment, wisdom and experience.  They want to please their coaches, their teammates and, yes, their parents.   Isn't the job of a parent to do that on the kid's behalf?   I would think that part of what  "letting a kid be a kid" amounts to is not asking them to make adult decisions, but also not side-stepping our responsibility as adults to make such decisions on their behalf.

You said above "I don't really have any idea what you mean by "going overboard with protecting arms.".......what I mean is clearly laid out in the rest of your response.  Is it possible my son is hurting his arm from pitching, even though he is following the ASMI rules AND receiving lessons to address any mechanical flaws...yes it's 100% possible.  It's also possible he has a slow growing brain tumor, so I am choosing to focus on him being a kid, and playing a game he loves, rather than wrapping him up in a bubble wrap waiting for the what if's the happen.

 

If I was saying "forget the ASMI" guidelines, I know better" I could understand the responses here saying I am heading down the wrong path with letting my kid play on a team year round, but I am not saying that.  I am following every guideline out there to protect my son's health while letting him play the game he loves. 

 

I do not want to look back and have to explain to my son why all the kids on his high school team got to play year round baseball from 9 and have all these great memories of summer trips, and winter training with his buddies, but he doesn't have those memories because I wrapped him in a bubble based on a possibility that he MIGHT hurt himself....that is overboard to me, and not allowing him to be a kid.  Before I get the smith/jones'es comments my response would be the same if it were regarding a summer camp, or a music club, part of being a kid is being with your friends, why not do it on a ball field?  If my kid starts throwing 90+ I will change my tune on how much he can throw, for now he's throwing 70, which is not even close.

By the time if and when he reaches 90+ he will be too old for you to limit his activity. 

I think that's a point you are missing. Control what you can while you can. 

Some choose to do that and others don't. No one said you are a bad parent because of what you choose to do so stop defending yourself.

 

I was just away for a week, however, the town I was staying in happened to be having a national youth tournament going on.  One day when the rest of the family was tired I went over to the fields to watch for a while.  I had this thread in mind so I was specifically looking for things to share in this discussion.

The first thing that stood out is how many times during  the game I was watching  I  heard a coach, parent, sibling, whoever, yell  something like “throw hard” to the pitcher.  Coaches literally pleading with the kid on the mound to “keep throwing hard”.  I didn’t once hear, “change speeds”, “pitch smart”, although, who knows, maybe that is said in the dugout.  I didn’t hear anyone ask the pitcher if he is tired, fatigued or sore.  This was the finals, so these teams had already played at least 6 games in the last 2 days. There is definitely a macho environment around these games, and you have to think some of these kids don’t want to ever say they’re tired because it may make them look less than tough.

The second thing I noticed was the pitcher for one team I was watching sat out an inning after he was pulled, and then was put in to catch.  This happens all the time during my son’s games as well.  Coaches, parents, players want to win that trophy.  That often means riding your best guys, which could mean pitching and catching for some of the kids.

I went back to my hotel and caught up on this thread.  Since I started it, I feel obliged to follow it. There’s a lot of valuable discussion going on here about overuse injuries.  I remembered that last year we had two of our pitchers unavailable to pitch by the end of the season.  One kid, a PO, was diagnosed with the growth plate injury that you hear about, while the other, pitcher/catcher  had an unknown problem. The reason it was unknown was because the parents wouldn’t talk about it. He was obviously hurt, and as we wound up the year he wasn’t pitching or catching. He had resorted to a side-arm style of throwing the ball in from the outfield. This was U11. The irony about these two kids is they were the only two on the team who took private pitching lessons. It made me wonder about what it takes to become a “pitching coach”? Is there any certification a parent should look for like the way you’d look for a PGA professional if you wanted to take golf lessons?

Finally, I’d like to say how funny I find the whole idea of these kids playing 9, 10, 11 months a year is.  Some of the greatest players of all time had actual jobs in the winter.  Suit salesman, truck driver, cattle rancher etc. and would then use spring training to get back into playing shape. Now we have parents of 11 year olds afraid Jimmie is going to fall behind if he doesn’t hit all winter or pitch in fall league.

Great post, Diamond Dogs!

 

This statement jumped out at me: "One kid, a PO, was diagnosed with the growth plate injury." 

 

That was SO common among pitchers (and more than one catcher) when JP was playing all that youth baseball. Makes me wonder: If a boy is throwing enough to cause damage to a growth plate before he matures, is he more likely to injure his arm later? I don't know the answer, but seriously -- that was COMMON.

 

My good friend's son had that injury at 12 -- and he totally shut him down, and didn't allow him to pitch until HS. I think that was smart.

 

And you are SO RIGHT about how everyone gets caught up in the moment when it comes to youth baseball championships! Heck, we LOVED IT!! Felt like it meant a lot! And in some ways, I suppose it did -- at the time.

 

We had a blast as a family -- traveling all over, camping, fishing, watching our son play the game he loved. And truth be told, most all of the boys on JP's youth teams are doing very well today. LOTS of D1 scholarships.

 

But more than one pitcher has paid a hefty price.

 

So Caco, 2020, and all of you loving parents of young pitchers, all I offer is this:

 

Let your son have fun. This is a great sport, and boys make lifelong friends playing it. Go and win a TON of championships, and bond as a family over baseball!!

 

Just keep in mind always that pitching requires the human body to do things it isn't designed to do -- so be mindful! And if you EVER hear a doctor tell you your son has a 'growth plate injury' shut him down for a LONG LONG time.

 

Then maybe, just maybe, all of here in the HSBBW community will join you in celebrating his post-HS success.

 

Not sure if this is place to post this link to July's Orthopedics Today roundtable/article titled "Epidemic of Youth Sports Injuries". Experts like Drs. Andrews and Romeo. Good info re Little League all the way to MLB. Food for thought re this thread.

 

http://www.healio.com/orthoped...t/orthopedics-today/{9b2e31e6-0a96-4a42-a7ef-f4c0bd427e73}/panel-discusses-epidemic-of-youth-sports-injuries-role-of-prevention-programs

A lot of good info.  Here's a really powerful quote from Dr. Andrews: "When I see new patients, I have them write down their history and elaborate about the awards they have won, the championships, perfect games, showcases, etc. These are all, of course, risk factors relative to injuries in the younger throwers. I have them put all this information on the blackboard including when they started throwing and how many innings they play each year and I will leave the room and let them finish that information. When I go back into their room, they usually have run out of blackboard space and I will look at the parents and the young thrower and say, “Do you all know why this young player is here?” They really don’t know how to answer my question. Then I will point to the blackboard and at that point, the parents for the first time understand why their young baseball player is in the office seeing me for a throwing arm problem."

I love this comment! There are many times I have wanted to start doing the same thing, but unfortunately I don't have a blackboard in our ATR to do just that! But it really makes a great point IMO..

He isnt the only surgeon who feels that way. 

Funny thing is there it is in black and white from a world renown surgeon and you still will have parents that will continue to do the same thing over and over. Play year round sports and never give the kids a rest.

JMO