Lets Talk Pitching - Ask/Discussion about pitching from professional instructor

 

No.

 

I sent BaseballInstructor50 a PM…or Dialog, whatever it's called. If he accepts my apology for acting like a jerk, I'm hopeful we can tag-team some of this stuff. I'm confident I can do a better job explaining the science than I have here, and it'd be pretty stupid to scare off someone with big league service time.

 

In the FWIW department, it was my experience that pitching instructors understood pitching mechanics, and at a high level understand workouts but none, at least the ones I met, were ever close to what you could get from someone like P3, Cressey, etc. Wolforth and driveline are kind of unique since they are baseball oriented and specific. 

 

All you have to do is to go and poke around and see what they are doing and you can understand that a pitching coach would never have this knowledge base. 

 

http://www.p3.md/

 

 

BaseballInstructor50,
Seems this thread has gotten a little off track so I'll hit you with a new question. Do you believe a teenage pitcher's (in this case 15 yrs old)  inconsistencies are due to mental, mechanical, or "none of the above issues"? I'm talking about looking great one outing and awful the next. In some cases it can be one inning to the next. Is it possible they outgrow these issues & at what age do they become more consistent. Thanks & good luck!

I absolutely adore this post and everyone should re-read it. Thanks, Kyle!

Moving along from running.  My son (2016) pitches infrequently (usually catches or plays corners) so he doesn't work on his pitching daily.  He finds that unless he works on pitching frequently he looses command of his curve ball.  No problem with the 4 seam and 2 seam fastball, or change ups, just the curve.  Do you have a suggestion on another breaking pitch to learn that might be easier to retain than the curve ball?

sowilson, 

 

Its understandable that your son does not feel comfortable throwing his curveball.  His two seam and four seam are similar to the hand position he has when throwing across the diamond or whatever other positions he plays.  So naturally those are his most comfortable and commanded pitches.  The curveball requires a different hand position but body mechanics dont change. I'd imagine something looks entirely different when he throws his curveball, head tilt, upper body sinking at release, etc... Rather than go into a pitching lesson on curveballs, I think we can get him on track with a better mental game plan.  Most kids have a general idea and game plan on their fastballs.  They dont think about the shape of the pitch when they release.  There is no thought on their fastball from fingertips to catchers glove.  Its more focused on getting a good delivery, focusing on the target and letting that sucker fly.  On a curveball, pitchers tend to think less about what they are doing in their delivery, less about a target and focus more on what the pitch is going to do from fingertips to catchers glove (shape).  Tell your son to throw his curveball like he is throwing his fastball.  A good fastball delivery and focus on a target - forget about the shape of the pitch.  Remember its not the size of the break that makes a curveball effective, its how similar it looks to a fastball that makes it nasty. I have worked with several kids on trying to throw their curveballs as straight as possible.  Sounds weird but it works.  A good way to work on this is to have him picture a hula hoop about 5 feet in front of the catcher.  Try to throw the curveball straight until it reaches the hoop then allow it to break once its goes through.  This will add depth, late break, and deception as his delivery will look like it does on his fastball.  Make sure he is staying tall at release - head up, ball down. Hope this helps!

+1

I am still wondering (please provide proof) how long distance running flushes out the bad stuff (what exactly is the bad stuff anyway).

This discussion reminds me of those ice or no ice discussions.

A college coach once told me that he leaves the training to the trainer and he teaches.

But many college coaches still require teams to run, same as it is done for spring training, but never to replace other better proven methods offered these days.

TPM

 

When you pitch for several innings or throw several pitches,  the next day you can have some soreness.  Running or any other cardio that increases heart rate can help with the soreness.  When a pitcher is sore, the cardio feels like you are flushing the crap (soreness) out of your body.  After the cardio, you actually feel less sore and much better. That is why it is referred to as a flush run.    

Pitch -> get sore 

Cardio -> Feel better

The proof comes from experience.

Yes I get that but can you give proof , besides that it works for you, that i t can cure soreness.
My son is a pitcher...he doesnt run after he pitches he says that is old  school and counter productive to his training. To avoid soreness he does a series of excercises that helps in his recovery. If he needs to clear his head or drop a few pounds..he may go for a  run or a walk but not to rid body of lactic acid.
I appreciate you coming here and answering questions...I appreciate the time you have put into the game.  I understand.

But please keep in mind what worked a while back isnt necessarily what works today or has actually proven to be counter productive.
Thanks.

There was an article in Sunday's Washington Post profiling the routine of Nationals' pitcher Doug Fister. It is part of a series called " 162: A Baseball Season's Relentless Grind"

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...starter-doug-fister/

 

An excerpt follows below.

 

But even with that close monitoring, both by himself and the Nationals’ staff, Fister woke up the day after his start against Colorado feeling sore. “Just mentally, physically exhausted,” he said. It is like this for most every major league starter after most every major league start. “You can feel it,” Roark said. Fister’s response, at 7 a.m.: A 4 1/2-mile run with his fiancee. This is nothing more than cleansing. They are training for a half marathon together, so they took to the hills in northern Virginia. Even as a kid, only two things could truly wipe Fister’s brain clean: mowing the lawn and running. “It’s a mental and physical break for me,” Fister said. “I use the mental side of things just to clear my mind and enjoy nature.”

 

While I have no horse in the race as to whether distance running is good or bad for a pitcher, and don't care whether Doug Fister is "right" or "wrong",  I did find the choice of words to be interesting in light of the ongoing discussions in this particular forum topic. As an added bonus, I might have found my next lawnboy !

My kid pitched a long outing one Sunday.  Way too many pitches.  He was sore.  Monday he played basketball -- running up and down the court.  Arm soreness went away after that.  Not scientific, but seemed to work. 

Fisters recovery program, although tailored to his specific needs is not uncommon.  The series of excercises along with bandwork on an already tired arm is the standard these days along with the ice bath if that is what a pitcher prefers.  As I stated , as article shows,  running does wonders to clear the head not the body.

Unless you have any written proof  that running after pitching will cure a sore arm I cant buy what you are selling. Telling pitchers that a run after an outing helps to cleanse the mind and refresh the soul, then I agree.

As far as day after pitching

I don't know the exact protocol at my son's program but I see pitchers sprinting, doing bands,  my son said they do weighted ball routines that are focused on the decelerators. Some do some Yoga and they have an ice bath.  

 

I admire your stubbornness in the face of facts, reason and logic. It takes a special human to keep on saying the same thing when it is so obviously and clearly wrong. Kudos, sir!

I am still waiting for info that running after pitching flushes the system.

 

You're going to be waiting for a long time, or until he realizes that he's wrong and is willing to learn from facts, science and evidence. I wouldn't hold my breath.

Running after pitching flushes system is a know fact

Please provide where you got that info.  I cannot find it on the internet anywhere. 
Thanks in advance.

Um...it's right above your last post. hsbaseballweb.com. A thread about ptiching questions. Posted by LAball. On the internet. Right there. Right. Above. You. Look closer. 

Oh yea...its a "know" fact cause LA said so!
Thanks!

       
       


Not saying I agree or disagree with this but the THEORY of running to help remove lactic acid is that the body can and will use lactic acid for energy if readily available. Such as a build up of it after exercise. I see more logic in the theory that a light jog immediately after exercising will use some of the lactic acid for energy production thus increasing the speed of absorption. The less logical theory for next day running by those that believe some soreness is caused by unabsorbed lactic acid (and no they are not all just old school coaches quite a few at the top of the field believe this) is that the lactic acid that was not absorbed for what ever reason back into the body will be used as an energy source therefore removing it or "flushing" it from the system.

My field of study is not lactic acid so I haven't studied it enough to have a strong opinion one way or another. However I won't say his name because I'm not going to put words in his mouth but I believe one of the top scientists in the field believes in this.

As for not being able to find the information online. Understand only a very small percentage of medical and scientific research is on the web. If you want to research exercise science go to a university library. Most research is only interesting or even usable to a few people. Now tid bits of research are often plucked from a research paper and posted to help someone sell something or justify their opinion. Sometimes those are taken the way the researcher ment for them to be sometimes they are taken out of context or even manipulated to show a desired outcome. Either way as with anything else be careful what you read on the internet. Especially if there is something to buy on that web site.

Really ? You want to rely on the internet for scientific research? No wonder you can't be taken seriously . 

Recovery is a new area of interest in optimal athletic performance and while I was one to bust baseballinstructs chops on running, there is some evidence that recovery is enhanced by some form of aerobic activity. I think we should separate "long distance running" as a training method for baseball vs going for a couple of mile run the next day after pitching. My guess is that it does more good than bad, and you don't need anything other than a pair of running shoes, which make it practical.

 

I started doing a little search on the internet for "athletic recovery" and there is quite a bit of information on it. I copied one article below as a reference.

 

My take on it is this: 

 

Don't use distance running as a way to improve athletic performance, but a couple mile run the day after pitching probably does more good than bad. Likely a bike or rowing is better, but at least you are helping recovery.

 

Maximizing Your Athlete's Recovery

by Shad Forsythe – Performance Specialist, Athletes' Performance

As professionals dealing with athletic performance, we primarily focus on training aspects, but many times recovery is an undervalued and overlooked means of preparation for our athletes. This past five years, as a performance specialist for Athletes’ Performance, I have had the opportunity to prepare some of the world’s best athletes and teams for upcoming games, seasons, and important tournaments. From our in-season experience with the LA Galaxy and our World Cup experience with the German National Soccer team one thing is for sure, athletic seasons and tournaments are long and strenuous and recovery should be and integral part of any athletes’ training plan.

Our athletes often view recovery as a day away from training in which they do absolutely nothing. I am not advocating a “no days off” policy, but a day designed for recovery is different than a day off. As one of Newton’s Laws of Motion states “a body at rest will remain at rest unless acted upon by an external force”. You can’t recover and prepare for upcoming competitions passively. Recovery should be an active process that is a part of the total training program.

During the 2006 World Cup our Medical Doctor took blood samples weekly throughout the tournament to monitor signs of stress and overtraining. Prior to our semi final match against the Italians, Doctor Myer reported the lowest markers for stress and overtraining in the history of German National Teams during a tournament and credited the results to our consistent recovery regimen coupled with proper undulations in training intensity and volume. The following will discuss strategies we utilized for enhancing recovery directly after competition and also designing recovery days for your athletes.

IMMEDIATE RECOVERY

Immediate recovery should take place within the first thirty minutes after competition or training. Athletes’ Performance has had great results utilizing immediate recovery which encompasses nutrition and cryotherapy. Post workout nutrition should consist of: a mixture of carbohydrates, fats, proteins (based on the athletes body composition and exertion level), electrolytes (based on the athletes perspiring levels), and water for hydration. Cryotherapy should consist of cold water immersion (55 degrees F) for at least 5 minutes. Athletes exerting the whole body (Rugby/American Football) should be fully immersed with only the head showing while athlete primarily exerting the lower body (Cyclist/Soccer) immersion to above the waist is acceptable. For the 2006 World Cup we traveled with 6 big garbage cans that we could fill with ice and water for immersion directly after each contest.

Primary Goals for Immediate Recovery:

1. To provide the depleted body with the proper nutrients to replenish glycogen and electrolyte stores. (Nutrition)
2. Cooling the body’s core temperature, hydration, and decreasing the production of catabolic hormones. (Nutrition/Cryotherapy)
3. Decreasing secondary hypoxic injury. Micro tears occur throughout muscle tissue and are the primary cause of DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness). Cooling the body’s tissue limits the extent of DOMS by decreasing the tissues need for oxygen and thus limiting secondary hypoxic injury to the micro tears. (Cryotherapy)

Example: Soccer Player finishes playing a 90 minute match.

1. He immediately has an EAS Myoplex Original Chocolate Shake, 24 oz of Gatorade, and 24 oz of Water. (For an economical option try chocolate milk, a banana, and some water.)
2. He then sits in a cold whirlpool 55 degrees F for 5 minutes.

RECOVERY DAY

In the planning of your athletes’ weekly calendar, the recovery day should be the day after the contest and the day before the athletes’ day off (if there is one). On this day the main focus should be to enhance the clearing of metabolic waste products from the day before and to return tissues to normal length, tension, and quality. Athletes’ Performance has had great success facilitating recovery by the utilization of these modalities: increasing circulation, utilizing self and/or professional massage and flexibility techniques, and utilizing contrast therapy.

Primary Goals of Recovery Day

1. Increase circulation with the use of non-pounding aerobic modalities such as stationary bikes or elliptical trainers to bring oxygen rich blood into the recovering tissues and enhance the removal of metabolic waste products. (Aerobic Flush/Contrast Therapy)
2. Self massage and flexibility utilizing foam rolls from Perform Better or other modalities to assist in returning muscles to normal length, tension, and quality. (Self or Professional Massage/Flexibility)
3. Utilization of cold and hot modalities such as plunges, whirlpools, Jacuzzis, saunas, and steam rooms to stimulate vasoconstriction followed immediately by vasodilatation to enhance circulation of oxygen rich blood and removal of metabolic waste products. (Contrast Therapy)

Example: A day after a match that a soccer player has played 90 minutes.

1. 20 minutes aerobic flush, this should be easy with no work on the legs.
2. 20 minute self massage using Perform Better foam rolls and flexibility routine.
3. 2 minutes cold whirlpool 55 degrees F, 3 minutes hot whirlpool 104 degrees F repeated 3 times. Note: if the athlete plans to have a lazy day ending in hot is fine if they plan to be more active have them complete one more cycle of cold.
4. Total Time 55 minutes.

Items of Note:

1. The above is the optimal order of modalities for recovery but beneficial results can be achieved using the above modalities in any order.
2. In the grand planning scheme a recovery day may be a good day to utilize upper body strength and power training for those athletes who engage in primarily lower body activities.
3. I recommend a professional massage once a week for professional and elite level athletes during the in-season and high training times of the off season.

Recovery is a very important part of any athletes’ training program. Along with immediate recovery and recovery days, different modalities can be utilized daily after training to enhance an Athletes’ Performance. Recovery should not be a weekly thing, but a daily activity. Take ten minutes and stretch after training. Foam Roll your legs after a tough day. Spend 5 minutes in the cold plunge after a weight room session. These strategies take very little time, but can make the difference over the course of a long season or tournament.

TPM,

 

What type of program does your son follow?  Does it include any type of running, even prior to stretching?  Does he do any type of running after he pitches?  What does he do when he is sore?  You might have posted this information somewhere before, sorry to ask you to repeat it.  Thanks in advance.  

Scotty83- If it's possible to provide some sources where that research may be readily available, that would be absolutely awesome. I'd be really interested in reading more in depth on the topic.

 

BOF- Are there any AP (now EXOS) studies on baseball, specifically? I find the concept of Contrast Therapy especially intriguing, but I do believe the physical exertion of a soccer player during competition is different than that of a baseball player…especially a pitcher.

 

First, it says not to run. Second, this isn't an AP thing, it was posted at Perform Better, who are in the business of selling equipment (not that they can't be right, just need more corroborating evidence and we should be a touch more skeptical on some of these claims). So, can anyone find any evidence backing this up?

Your trolling is making me laugh every time, keep it up!

For those who aren't accustomed to LAball's trolling, it's nothing new. He does it on pretty much every other baseball site.

 

JH:

 

BOF- Are there any AP (now EXOS) studies on baseball, specifically? I find the concept of Contrast Therapy especially intriguing, but I do believe the physical exertion of a soccer player during competition is different than that of a baseball player…especially a pitcher.

Check out some Thermal Exchange studies done by Stanford on the AvaCore "Glove." Pretty interesting stuff and studied over a wide range of applications. I am testing a negative pressure sleeve with palm cooling that costs two orders of magnitude less; fairly interesting results so far!

       
       


JH I'm assuming your talking about research about the theory's of running to remove lactic acid. I have no idea where to point you to that on the internet. Most of the research I have ever read was in the libraries of Vanderbilt University, Austin Peay State University, or Middle Tennessee State University. Plus I've never researched lactic acid just ran across it in other things is was researching.

However I can tell you pretty much any research on the subject pre 2004 on lactic acid removal should cover it. Though anything pre mid 90's I think would be more increased blood flow moving it to the kidneys rather than absorbing it. Which I assume is where the term flushing it came from.

Post 2004 you'll find more of a mixed bag. That's when a biochemist named Rogers or Robergs did the study that theorized lactic acid doesn't cause asitosis (this is what causes muscle burn and fatigue) but it was actually a by product and further more actually helped the body slow down acitosis. This is when lactic acid became good.

The main point I was trying to make was be careful with research in the fitness community. The research is great it's the interpretation of the research that is the problem. To use the 2004 study as an example it cause this line of thinking. So lactic acid doesn't cause soarness. So running is to get rid of lactic acid which doesn't cause soarness. Ok stop running. However that same research paper said that endurance training increases the production of lactic acid and therefore will help prevent acitosis.

Basically the research trainers use to say no endurance training for explosive athletes flat out said explosive athletes should do endurance training. 

This is why I tell people to be careful of research or better yet be careful of someone else's opinion of that research.

By the way for the record. In my humble opinion I believe next day running alleviates soreness because of endorphin release but hey if it works for the athlete do it. If it doesn't don't. Honestly it's such a small insignificant part of an athletes overall training I don't see why it's so heavily discussed. But that's just me.

I hope all this rambling somehow answered your question JH. If not I'm sorry for making you read threw it but I can't sleep and I'm bored so you got a long answer hahaha.

JH I have not seen any baseball specific work, but hey I am just a Dad trolling the internet....one of the computer coaches as Sultan pointed out earlier. 

 

What intrigues me however is what is actually happening during recovery from a physiological stand point? I found out about ice bath's from the sprinting coach and helping sprinters recovery and I though hmmmm why does that work? From a mechanical engineering standpoint heating and cooling cause expansion and contraction and with it fluid flow in a liquid environment. So what that has to do with a biological environment and the physiological effects of recovery in a pitcher?, I am not sure but it seems to work with them as well from practical observations. Kyle is on to something with compression sleeve's.

 

I have not gone to ASMI's site in a while and will check around there when I get a chance later in the week. 

 

From what I know a pitcher needs to:

 

1. Get some level of aerobic activity. I think a bike, rowing are preferred but running or light sprints seem to make sense to me.

2. Get some sort of movement in the area of potential damage so scar tissue does not develop. Bands, weighted balls, physical movement, not so much to further damage the muscle and soft tissue of the area.

3. Ice bath's seem to help in recovery within two days for some reason.

4. Late add: Yoga or Pilates are also encouraged in some college programs. Probably relates to 2. 

 

This is all based on anecdotal evidence on my part not on any medical expertise. I may go post some questions on ASMI like I said and get their response when I get some time later in the week.

 

 

OK I went over to ASMI and there are some current question on their board that likely came from some HSBBW posters. I found this reply to ice baths

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 From ASMI:

 

The general theory behind this cold therapy is that the exposure to cold helps to combat the microtrauma (small tears) in muscle fibers and resultant soreness caused by intense or repetitive exercise.

The ice bath is thought to constrict blood vessels, flush waste products and reduce swelling and tissue breakdown. Subsequently, as the tissue warms and the increased blood flow speeds circulation, the healing process is jump-started. The advantage of an ice bath submersion is that a large area of intertwined musculature can be treated, rather than limiting the cold therapy to a concentrated area with a localized ice pack.


Read more: http://asmiforum.proboards.com...e-bath#ixzz38ISPF2LX

Ice is great for muscles.  Not so great for ligaments. UCLs beware.

Just curious: Why?

 

What about the connective tissue? 

Now see this interests me much more than lactic acid or the minuscule effects of a quick jog. I remember what ten years ago starting to hear chatter about icing a pitchers arm being a bad and possibly damaging thing. However this was coming out at the same time ice baths were really gaining popularity. The positive or negative effects of icing a pitchers arm is what I want to see research on.

I for one have never just iced my sons arm. One he's only thirteen and two he's never had a sore arm. Now he has had a heavy arm after a pitching start and we iced and heated his arm the next day to get him ready to play a position the next day with good results. Well at least good from a stand point of felt better. So this is a subject area I have great personal interest in.

My son as a youth always iced his arm, when he went to college the pcoach told us that he lets his pitchers and catchers do what they feel comfortable with so with that as a starter, he continued to ice his arm until about a  few years ago (reliever). He will ice his arm if he feels a bit sore but he doesnt feel that it helps one way or the other. There are many that say its essential and many say unless you have an issue its not necessary and there are some pro/college teams who do not ice their pitchers after outings.

I think that icing young arms is less as important as making sure that they are not over used.  Perhaps not letting him play a position so soon (especially one that requires less throws) might be more beneficial.

JMO

Yes, I posted what he does but I dont think that you read what others have to say.

What he does NOT do is run specifically to relieve any soreness the following day.

 How did he decide NOT to run after pitching to relieve soreness?  Is that something he decided on his own or something that you recommended through your research?

I do not recommend him to do anything, he has been playing the professional game for 8 years ( plus 3 years of ACC ball).  Over this period of time, he has changed his training based upon the people he has worked with (similar philosophies as to those that JH listed).   The series of excercises I spoke about come from a pretty well known surgeon from many years ago. These series of excercises, or ones similar I believe, have been adopted by most ML teams for pitchers. My son also hits 95-96 and a reliever.

I am not sure the if bigger picture is being lost here.  When sore - just about any movement / exercise will help loosen up the soreness....in the old days, it was running, now I agree with JH - that there are more beneficial ways to better accomplish...all of which have been posted previously. 

 

Personally, after a start, my son will do some explosive short duration cardio work, band work, and light throwing...seems to work well.  If he feels extra sore, then short ice, followed with Ibuprofen, and Lurong velvet deer antler.... I KNOW before you give me crap about the supplement, I cannot give any scientific data on it, but based on our experience it has worked....Interesting guy that started the company...good guy Adam Greenberg.  

 

Regarding icing, here is an interesting article from Brent at Top Velocity :

 

"When body tissues are cooled, nerve cells in the chilled area initially force adjacent blood vessels to constrict, leading to a marked reduction in blood flow to that part of the body. However, if the temperature of the affected area continues to drop, nerve activity is depressed and the blood vessels begin to open up, flooding the injured tissues with blood, even though cold is still being applied. This flood-of-blood (Hunting effect) is the human body’s reflex reaction to thwart severe cold injury in a body part subjected to chilling stress.

Dr. Meeusen’s studies showed that icing initially stops the swelling and blood flow of the damaged blood vessels into the local muscle tissue but after a period of 10 minutes it can begin to have an opposite effect to the area. His documentation continues to state this damage continues on to another important system of healing.

Lymphatic Vessels: Prolonged ice application can cause lymphatic vessels (which ordinarily help carry excess tissue fluids back into the cardiovascular system) to increase in permeability. This causes large amounts of fluid to pour from the lymphatics “the wrong way” into the injured area, increasing local swelling and pressure, potentially contributing to greater pain. If icing goes on too long, the lymphatic vessels can actually be nearly obliterated, losing all of their fluid to surrounding tissues.

The lesson here is NOT that icing is bad. What we have learned is that icing is effective initially but begins to cause problems after about 10 minutes. Read the description below for the proper way to ice the arm after a game to help aid the healing process.

Ice the elbow or shoulder region for 10 minutes immediately after pitching (DO NOT PUT ICE ON ULNAR NEVER), remove the ice for about 30 minutes, and then reapply it for 10 additional minutes. Repeat this cycle of about two 10-minute icings per hour as often as desired, based on how many pitches thrown, during the first 24 to 48 hours after pitching."

 

 

Don't know what happened with the above cut and paste....sorry about that, not sure why it pasted in several formats, and multiple times.  I tried to go in and edit the post but it does not show the additional posts in the edit box, only the one....and did not intend to post the LINK...I am not a customer, nor promoter of Top Velocity....although I do like some of his "stuff".

 

Sorry again!

To add one more point, as a starter the recovery period is much different than for releivers, so many do feel that running is beneficial. I know my son liked to run afterwards but as far as we have discussed it wasnt for flushing out the lactic acid, more like flushing out the head.  I have no issue with anyone sho prefers to run, but I do not believe t is for the reasons you state.

As an instructor, it is your obligation to be familiar with all the information available in 2014, that would include training (or leave that to the trainers). Because running worked for you may not mean it will for someone else. JMO

BFS,

The deer antler is a discovery of DK's friend, who has asked him to represent the company.

TPM,

 

Like I said, the "stuff" works for us, makes sense to us, and we use it.  I have followed Adam for a while (I assume that is who you are talking about), and find him to be good guy....BFS Jr. takes it twice every day....if sore we double up on the dose.

Yup Adam Greenberg, his teammate from Team Israel.

Banned by MLB...too bad.

Sorry, my error, its not banned but comes with warnings of possible contamination, sort of like take at your own risk.

 

More on icing...

 

Dr. Gabe Mirkin, the doctor who literally wrote the book on RICE (rest, ice, compression, elevation) has changed his tune with regard to icing, stating that icing actually delays recovery.

 

http://drmirkin.com/fitness/wh...delays-recovery.html

I think that the important thing here is that most of us are bringing different things to the table.

That's why I am adamant about anyone that is adamant that those should follow what worked for them, there are so many choices. As a parent we had great people surround our pitcher but we still did our homework and I still try to keep up with the every changing philosophies even though I have no clue how long son will remain in the game.

What baseballinstructor and a few others may fail to realize is that all of us have something in common, parents of pitchers, or were at one time ourselves (not me) and if we took everything someone said and not do our own investigation our sons may never bcome pitchers beyond HS.

I have known some of the people here for many years, and although I don't always agree with them, I respect that they are able to open themselves up to knew and different ways of doing things and help others.  The game of baseball and how it is played and all that goes with it, is even very much different than the game when son became a professional years ago.

Since we're now listing recovery stuff we do, here's a generic program that is a good shell of what our athletes do (programs are typically individualized but this is a good start):

 

After a tough throwing session (pitching, bullpen, weighted baseballs, long toss, etc), athletes will do this circuit in some order:

 

-Foam roll / self-myofascial release in various areas (lacrosse ball, SKLZ ball)

-Resistance band work, primarily external rotators

-Isometric holds in external rotation

-Internal rotation stretch of some sort

-Shoulder tube / Total Bar oscillations with arm in various positions

-Rebounders with plyocare balls

-Elbow extension stretch

-Stim using Marc Pro or Compex

-Voodoo flossing / compression wrapping on elbow

 

Then we might do some cardio, like interval-style Prowler sled pushes, Concept2 rowing, sprints, speed deadlifts, etc. Also some challenging open-chain stability work like waiter carries, overhead slosh pipe holds, maybe some upward external rotation tosses, etc.

 

If it sounds like a lot, it's because it is. We treat recovery like it's as important as the training effect (and in reality we should treat it like it's MORE important).

I have to say that this thread is turning out to be a awesome resource for pitchers or pitchers parents (coaches also) for some of the modern thinking about pitching, conditioning and recovery. 

I agree!

Not only was it (long distance running) something that I personally did that contributed to my success ...

 

Maybe it was just that it didn't hinder your success. But you could have spent the time doing something more productive.

It can be very amusing when a poster doesn't know the background of the person they are debating.

What JH has uncovered is what I've been advising parents for years. Just because a guy played pro ball doesn't mean he knows how to teach.  I was a successful player in high school and college back in the 70s. Much of what I was taught turned out to be folklore passed through the generations. Access to information is now as easy as sitting down at a table in your house. To waste this opportunity is a shame. If you're not moving forward you're moving backwards as everyone else passes you. 

RJM, I respect your opinion, (BTW your post to the Legion Mom in the other thread was perfect) but we have been through 2 pages of attacks, so lets try to stick to the issues and facts if you don't mind.  

RJM,

I have a decent understanding of JHs background.  We shared a few direct messages and I think we are on common ground with what we both have to offer.  Hopefully we are all here to help parents and ultimately help kids to enjoy their baseball experience.

What I do not understand is trying to discredit someone that has fully lived that experience. High school, college, minor, major, Internationally, etc... I am simply offering to help parents and kids navigate their way through the process. JH was nice enough to personally apologize and realize that having access to someone that has the experience that every single baseball player wants and every baseball parent wants for their kids here is a good thing.  

I agree with you, sometimes just because a player played professionally doesn't make them good instructors.  However, in this case.  The proof is in the pudding. Several players have moved on to play highs school, college and professional baseball.  I don't care to prove anything to you, I just hope you can respect my experience and the help I am providing here.

 

If you go to Yahoo Answers the internet can't be relied upon. But if you read credible sources their information is reliable. It's a benefit reliable sources post their material on the internet. If Dr Andrews posts on the internet regarding arm injuries and surgery it's not exactly a Yahoo Answer.

My posts were page one and page two responses. I just started reading this thread.

If you were simply helping navigate through the process, no one would have a problem. It's the teaching discredited methods, and not attempting to be current on the latest methods, science and facts. Not to mention demanding respect without earning it. You don't just get respect because you demand it, you need to earn it. We're still waiting for you to earn it.

Originally Posted by BaseballInstructor50:

…However, in this case.  The proof is in the pudding. Several players have moved on to play highs school, college and professional baseball….

 

BBI,

Mebbi I’m wrong here, but I suspect at least some of the folks aren’t seeing your proof as proof of anything. I.e., what evidence is there that your program is what caused those players to move up? It like the old argument that Mike Marshal never had students make it to the ML so he must not know what he was talking about, ignoring the fact that the vast majority of his students weren’t among the very best when he got his hands on them, many had already been injured, and many were past their prime. There are a lot of people who literally hate MM, and he not only had a fantastic ML career, he earned a PhD in Kinesiology and worked in the field for many many years. So why do you think people would treat you much better?

 

Were these students of yours who made it to the next level the best or worst players among their peers? I suspect they were among the best, which means they had a big advantage in both talent and opportunity, and whether or not they followed your program or someone else’s, they would go on to higher levels.

 

It’s really too bad there’s no way to resolve this “disagreement”. The only way to do that would be to track some players who never changed programs, then compare them to see how high they advanced, or to try to figure out where every one of your students ranked against their peers before they began on your program, then track whether or not their position improved or declined once they got on your program. But even then, there wouldn’t be any way to know if they might have done better or worse following someone else’s program. IOW, right now its really not possible to say for sure one way or the other.

 

So what’s happening is, people are looking at what’s currently known as the leading edge in knowledge on this issue, but not only are you arguing something different, you don’t seem willing to accept what others who are far more expert in these things are saying, or to look at why they are saying it. But I sure don’t fault you for trying. I fault you for faulty logic and reasoning, but think your wanting to help players is a laudable thing to do and hope you continue trying.

 

One final thought. Something I learned from one of the best pitching coaches in the ML, “Red” Adams, is that no “program” works equally well or everyone, because everyone’s different. He’d have some of his pitchers run, but have others do something else. Another great pitching coach, when asked about running for pitchers, Leo Mazzone is reported to have said, “I think pitchers running is great, but not when they’re wearing an Atlanta Braves uniform.” Their time would be much better spent in the bullpen working on improving their pitching.”

 

Now that doesn’t mean those guys are right by any means, but it does go to show that there are many way to skin a cat.

Pretty good story HERE.

 

 

If this is a link to your site, it can be viewed  as advertising which is prohibited on this site. 

See the site owner for advertising rates.

I respect the fact that you have come here and offered to help and I respect your experience as a former player, I know how very difficult the game can be.  But I think that you also need to show some respect for us as well,although you may not know our names or who we are, that doesnt matter, but there are many people here that are very knowledgeable, have been here for many many years and offered their best advice without looking to get potential business or used their experience to influence others that they knew better.

I think that is what is bothering many here.

 

IMO this has been a really good discussion, I have read most of the info that has been posted and related and learned.

 

Have you?

TPM,

 

I would never discredit what another person has to offer about this game.  I am speaking to that same point and saying you shouldn't discredit what I say.  Everyone has something to offer someone on here.  But to straight out say, don't listen to someone, IMO is wrong.  I think you guys do a great job offering people advice,  I am simply trying to do the same and use my experience to their benefit.  This is a great thread, can we all get along in it?

I get what you are saying, I did not say not to listen to you, but I do feel like some of the suggestions that you are offering was the norm back when son was 8, and that was 20 years ago.  Things have changed, the college game has changed,   college pitching and  pro pitching have changed, recruiting has changed, players have changed as well as training and recovery methods.  

 

I believe that a player himself is what makes him move up, the drive and the ambition and the love of the game. The people that surround him should be good people but the player has to figure it out for himself.   son played for a pretty well known college coach and I have never once heard him say, "my guys got high draft picks because of me or my program".

 

And FWIW, he never made his pitchers run after a game, only if they wanted to!

There has to be a certain humility when you play or coach the game.  

 

 

 

Science and evidence have done that years ago.

 

If you are wrong, it's totally 100% correct to say people shouldn't listen to you.

Link to recent article by Alan Jaeger on throwing cycle pre-season and in season. Interesting differences between starters and bull pen pitchers. Interesting differences in coming out of the pen vs starters. My son came out of the pen for the first time in his career this year and he found it more difficult to prepare due to the inconsistent nature of in game pitching.

 

http://www.jaegersports.com/pr...articles.php?psid=24

 

FWIW, I have been around for a long time.  As TPM mentioned what was standard procedure years ago has changed in many areas.  So much so that it is hard to take anything as the gospel.  Unless we all of a sudden stop learning it is reasonable to expect things will be changing again in the future.

 

So right or wrong, I suppose we are left with where we are at the current time.  But 20 years from now what is right today could turn out to be wrong.  What is wrong today could turn out to be right.  There are many examples that lead me to that conclusion.

 

One more thing to think about.  All great pitching coaches, all great hitting coaches, do not agree on everything.

 

We have a knowledgable crowd that participates in these discussions.  I have actually read some of the things that BaseballInstructor50 has written about pitching other than the running issue. Some really good stuff that can only come from experience. IMO.  

 

That said, if his intent is to increase traffic to his website, he should talk to Julie.  If his intent is simply to help we should welcome him.  Doesn't matter if he is right or wrong about something, we can all learn from each other.  One of the best hitting coaches that ever lived has been supposedly proven wrong about certain things.  Probably can't ever change his mind, but sure would be interesting to hear him talk about hitting.

Why is it that for a kid to reach his baseball potential he needs to play other sports (football, basketball, soccer) heaven forbid he runs over a mile.

are there any specific drills that will help me on hitting my spots?

Alert to parents looking for Professinal pitching coach Inland Empire California. Coach is back after a 5 month layoff for personal reasons. Excellent communicator or the game 

I also played big league baseball for a number of years and still am very active as an Personal coach. For all you who feel running for pitchers is a thing of the past, you are sadly mistaken. you need your legs and cardio vascular strength when it comes to those late innings. So baseball instructor 50 why try to convince the stubborn majority with knowledge intended to help a generation of future athletes. When a person tells me the game has changed and so have the techniques and mechanics I let them win. Although I have seen some of my former students recently get drafted into professional baseball. That's pretty good after teaching them a method that is outdated. Keep up the good work because with all of the travel teams and coaches pushing their philosophy this generation of kids will suffer the most. God bless you all for sharing both positive or negative

Gotta ask, DeePee, do you think that your students were drafted because of the long distance runing? Do you think they would not have been had they forgone the running?

No I believe both were going to get noticed because of the pitching performances and what was taught to them but what I am saying is running is apart of what we do and teach to future athletes. Have you been to Spring training or big league camp recently? For the larger part of early camp, conditioning or running is a major part of pitchers daily routine until the regular position players arrive. We are talking about total preparation both mentally and physically. Pitchers don't have to run marathons but they need to work there cardio and legs to keep up with the grind of a long season. Relievers and starters run at different levels and pace, but run. if your claim held water, why do guys like Kershaw and Greinke, Lackey and Chapmans show up to the ball park hours before anyone and run on there own? These guys are set for life but they run because they know it helps keep there body and mind peaked. Have you seen the Dominican players level of preparation, not to stereotype them but they understand and want to tap into everything that can help them excel And play above there competition. if your competition is running why not you? Running / training helps athletes excel Physically and mentally. so for me, I will keep telling young up and coming athletes to run right along with mechanical training. Not marathons but definitely do some running both long ( 2 to 3 miles) and short ( sprints, hills or dashes).  Again if you know any prospective young athletes that need guidance in Inland Empire California shoot them my info. God bless you

DeePee, I believe anyone who understands athletic performance in pitchers requires a healthy body that includes endurance and cardiovascular fitness. There are many ways to achieve this other than long distance running. I think that is the point some people are making. You have to run in baseball (D'Oh) but at least from my perspective there is a lot more knowledge today in training athletes for baseball than there was even 4 years ago. I for one would not be looking to a travel ball coach for this advice, just the same as I would not look to a pitching instructor for a workout. (unless they were highly trained in this area and most if not all pitching instructors are not). Guys like P3sports, Eric Cressey, Gymjones, who specialize in fitness training for athletes (including baseball) are where I would look. 

 

As an example my son, a college pitcher, is in extremely good cardio and strength shape, he can run a 5'30" mile if required but does not run very often. Much of the cardio gains are achieved in interval training as well as bikes, rowers, and "ski rowers"  If you have not look at the above sites I would if I were you.

 

Good luck.

Originally Posted by roothog66:

Gotta ask, DeePee, do you think that your students were drafted because of the long distance runing? Do you think they would not have been had they forgone the running?

 

I’d like to expand on that just a bit.

 

DeePee, do you think the only way to build leg and cardio strength is to run long distances? Also, do you believe that every player is the same, and therefore should train the same way?

BOF is right on. You dont go to a pitching coach for training unless that coach has been trained to give that advice.

ML pitchers with big contracts dont do very much in spring training. Its a very long season and they need their knees to hold up so running is minimal.   40 man roster guys not on the 25 man and invites will do all they can to get noticed. Running still is a requirement in college and milb pre season, I think its more of a mental thing than actual physical and you can achieve cardio fitness in many more ways than pounding the pavement.

Usually the guys who have been to college catch on much quicker than those that have never been through serious training for their position.

 

I agree with everything you just said about various ways of achieving cardio work, and no, you do not have to just pound pavements. I am a fan of it all, not just one. So if your preference is outside in the air great or if indoors on a stairmaster,  treadmill or  stationary bike awesome, or a combination of them both great, just put in the work.  Nope, you cant run the ball to the plate, you got to throw it. There is something that separates the ones that make it from the ones that dont. I am just honored and blessed to have had a chance to make it. I guess thats why 31flavors ice cream is still around. There u take your basic ice cream and add what you like to it: chocalate, sprinkles, nuts or nothing. Athletics is pretty much the same I am a living witness add to it whatever you may that might make you better. I made it from a town populated with 650 people to big leagues. God is good


Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy S® 5

What team and how long were you in the big league..not just minor league.

Dodgers, Brewers, Mariners and Japan again God bless you my friend,  keep 
Making a difference

Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy S® 5

I asked you a question...big league or minors?
When?

1997...that was 14 years ago.
Its a new era, things have changed!

Close to 6 in the big leagues with those teams I mentioned but it seems as though you have a debating spirit. I have stated what I wanted to state. Have a peaceful and blessed 2015

Thanks Dennis

> On Jan 2, 2015, at 8:22 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

Before I go , how many years did you play in the majors and with what teams?

Thanks Dennis

> On Jan 2, 2015, at 8:22 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

I never played any years in proball. Why would you assume that?

Does one have to be involved in baseball to understand that changes have been made to conditioning and training and why?
My point and others has been that pitcher training and conditioning is very different from what it was years ago (even when son began college and pro career). I certainly would want to be sure that the person my pitcher would be training with be aware of proper methods used today, because things are a whole lot different than they were even a short time ago.

 

I am not sure how much to trust anyone who comes onto a site looking for business and does not seem to be open minded to todays methods of conditioning and training.

I do not wish to take the time to read all the way back to the beginning of this.  But here are my thoughts on pitching instruction.  First it means absolutely nothing to me if a guy played big league ball or stopped in little league.  Shouldn't we all have learned this by now with the success of the modern day GM's who really have no playing experience but know how to analyze and disect things?  Ab Ility to do something has little correlation to ability to teach it.  Second (and I am not saying the OP doesn't do this) if they don't use video I would never trust a paid instructor.  Finally I agree with what several have said, things change and you have to remain open minded.   When enough evidence stacks up against what you have been teaching for years don't dig your heels in.  It is no shame to say "I have researched some new findings and I am making a change to how I do things".  The mark of a dedicated and intelligent coach.

Excellent post. Probably the best trainers are the ones that have degrees in that field.

 

And I agree that former ML or milb really dont always make the best instructors.  Not sure that this should be the reason why you would pay someone to instruct/train your son and IMO probably why milb does not always have the best pitching coaches. Reminds me of one of sons milb teammates who really struggled and after one year gave up the job and now one of the best managers in the farm system. There are so very few who can do it really well (manage and teach).

 

The best are the ones that are willing to consider new ideas and new philosophies.  

Pretty simple for me:

:

You get your meat from the meat market, your bread from the bakery. 

 

Get a proper strength and conditioning from an expert in the field who has some experience training baseball athletes, pitching instruction from a pitching instructor who you develop trust in, you also have throwing programs like Jaeger, Wolforth, drivelinebaseball, etc. Once you are at the college level and beyond most athletes have been exposed to a number of different approaches and develop a routine based on their personal needs. Mobility, not mentioned previously discussed here is also huge, again depending on the athlete. Yoga, Pilates, and mobilitywod.com, are places to get this aspect. As far as pitching instruction I would say the best my son has used is his college coach who never pitched beyond college, he had coaches who had long "big league" bios that were worthless, Kyle Boddy never played past HS, the best strength and conditioning coach he has used never played baseball, but will be the first GymJones affiliate in Ca shortly.So while a resume is important comfort and trust with the coach, instructor, is paramount. Since this site is for HS athletes working their way through the process many of us stick around to help them. TPM and others are mostly parents who have had their kids work through the process so, she, and many others stick around to help them. Discussions like these are just many of the very enlightening ones that happen here that should help those working through the process. 

 

Wishing all of the pitchers out there a happy and successful 2015. 

       
       
I agree that when dealing with trainers for any sporting activity you want to make sure they are someone that stays in touch with the latest information. However unlike say doctors where the latest information is baised on actual research and science. A great deal of the new training will be made on assumptions and opinions. You have to be careful of trainers that just jump on the latest fad also. Look at how much training has been done of the past 40 years that has been proven to be useless. Those methods weren't done by quack pots. They were done by respected leaders in the field at the time and they were horribly wrong. Stick with what works for you not what someone else tells you that you should do. Try new things and have an open mind but don't just blindly follow because it's a new thing or its recomended by an "expert". New sells better than proven.

Scotty that statement about coming on website and soliciting clients is what we call using social media. Look around, people put themselves out on the web for business daily, jaegerband, Tom house videos, P3sports, baseball instructor50'! gym jones and TPM. Even you are soliciting attention with your well thought out discussions. This is not about criticizing or clowning on another, just an open discussion page

Sorry Scotty that post was for TPM, whatever works for you use it, but I too am Leary of trainers who constantly change based on the latest theory or discovery. 

I guess I look at it this way.  Any conditioning and strength program offered today is better than nothing.  Baseball did the same things from 1900 right up til when the 80's?  Maybe the last 10 or 15 years we have become serious about trying to discover exactly what it is that helps a baseball player?  Science keeps advancing and kinesthetics (I think thats what its called, I am certainly no doctor) is no exception.  I would be leery of those who don't change.  More fuys than ever throw 90+.  Hard to compare offensive numbers but hitters seem to be as good if not better at the same time pitchers are throwing harder.  I believe the focus on specific baseball workouts have helped.  Without a control group (and really what college or professional player would agree to no workout program) it is an impossible point to prove but it seems to pass the common sense test to me.  But in fairness I am a numbers guy.  A show me scientific data guy, and I am not sure we can do this here.  I will continue to error on the side of modern methods.

All I can say to deepees response is roflmao. 
Do you see those guys coming here for business?  No they have their own sites and pay big bucks for them.
And this is not a free advertising site.

Dang, spent the last hour reading this entire thread.  My dad once told me to listen to anyone that wants to talk baseball.  Take what you think will work, let the rest go.  The 'science' of the whole matter is to use what works best for you.  My son is a 20 year old college pitcher and has never had arm problems.  Therefore, if it's not broke don't fix it.  I had a hard time reading people downgrade each other.  Pro pitchers and hitters all got where they are from what 'they' believe works and stuck to it.  Parents, do what your kid thinks works and don't worry about what the 'instructors/gurus' say.  If his arm hurts, rest.  If he gets tired, run.  If he ices and it seems to relieve soreness, ice.  I played college baseball, am a Kinesiology major, and my philosophy is still whatever works for each kid.  Thanks for all of the opinions shared.  Good luck to all. 

While I understand the sentiment, there are a lot of guys out there who are doing things that "work for them..." until it doesn't and they're on a surgeons table.

Overthehill, that is all I have been trying to say but some people just are stubborn and want to sound so educated and up to date. And by the way TPM , I do have a website but I do not pay a lot of money. It is simply so people know a little about me and what I Can offer their kids. Sorry to disappoint. What ever works from the old, new or both. Your dad told you correct, and again sorry to offend anyone, just trying to help. Believe me I don't everything but I do know something. 

Root and DeePee, I wasn't trying to stir the pot. 

I have several concerns with simply saying 'whatever works'.  I must stipulate though that I like something structured and tangible so admittedly I would struggle with this type of approach.  Second how do we define 'works'?  Avoiding injury?  Being a successful hs pitcher?  College scholarship...  beyond?  If we just do what we have been doing (whatever that is) how do we know we didn't leave something on the table?   And for some people anything 'works'.  I went to school with a guy who pitched about 15 years in the majors.  One time 20 game winner.  He was great at every sport he played from a very early age.  Could have been a college scholarship quarterback and he was a great basketball player as well.  Basically he could roll out of bed and beat you.  I guess the question is how does that borderline guy give himself an advantage?  That's where I would welcome all new thoughts and research.  I am not saying many of the tried and true methods are bad but I am saying baseball coaches in general tend to be a little stubborn and unwilling to do the research necessary to stay up to date and remain open minded.  And that's just my observation.  I am not trying to be critical just having a conversation.

I tell kids only worry about what you can control, true, some coaches are dinosaurs, but don't place all coaches in the same boat. Whatever works from my angle, if it is research go with it, mixed with something from Mike MarsHal philosophy, go with it, mixed with Leo M theory, go with it, mixed with a nutritionist and fitness guru go for it. Whatever it takes to give you an edge and keep you mechanically, physically or mentally fit, go for it. Even good, fit, solid pitchers can wind up on a surgeons table so injury does not mean it was wrong 

Earlier someone said that it doesn't matter if the coach played minor league ball.  It does in most instances to me, and I would bet to others also.  I don't know how to coach baseball, so I would like to have relative certainty that the people that I pay good money too, at least played the sport at a high level.  My son has had coaches that played in AAA (The best hitting coach he has ever had.) AA - Pitching Coach & 2 of his Travel Team Coaches, and many former college players have coached him.  If a coach has played baseball in the minors, or in college, that adds to his resume and his credentials.  If a coach does not have any MILB or college experience, he would need to have good examples of his work.  (A good track record of results, or good word of mouth from someone that I trust.)  I am not saying that I would never pay someone for training that does not have the minor or college playing/coaching experience, but it definitely helps me to make a decision.